Line breeding

[Andrew overton]

i also forgot to say all my yellows were pure and came from down south all my stock was bred making sure type condition stamina size and most importantly health was my priority.
i feel if anyone as issues with breeding farms write to them but one thing i will say one breeeding farm which breeds the light greys has never ever put the black into any one colour they produce to me that is a plus and i am grateful for that if its the only plus point i give them. And that advice was given by me 10 years ago when i told them the light grey male has got kidney problams their urine becomes brown and smells strong ,from age 1 year upwards but strangely enough the female does not have this problam.
has a responsible breeder i dont buy a outcross light grey male and have not done since the year 2000 so please give me some credit im not the hamster bible and never had said so neither.
if anyone is serious about breeding the light greys i welcome you with open arms because somone needs to do it besides me.

[internet_nobody]

You're not being victimised at all - people disagreeing with something you say is how discussions work! From what I can see anyone who has expressed a different viewpoint has been very careful to explain that they are not personally attacking you.

You have, however, thrown back random statements that are nothing to do with the initial conversation and do not help the OP at all. Fair enough if you feel strongly that your lines have been ruined, but this is not the place to discuss that. As Souffle, who is a moderator on this forum said, you should be staying on topic.

Lisab - the best way to see what is currently done in the fancy is to talk to people who come to shows, and who do well at shows, and see what they do. Take a look at the pedigrees of their babies on the sales tables etc. The top two breeders in last year's Syrian Harry Ham awards don't do close linebreeding.

[Andrew overton]

I forgot to say in the previous post i did get a lovely black eyed cream last may from a well respected other hamster forum lady. The stock originally come from where most black eyed creams have come from and circlated in the fancy like they do now . I have used this male and ideally i need a good gold with no black at all in the background to use as a outcross. I still like outcrosing to golden but not gold swarthy with excessive black ticking and having black in the pedigrees. I too no my standards and remember how long it took before the standard for light grey was finally agreed , So glad it did but never espected it to be a rare unbred colour of today.

[Andrew overton]

WE are talking about line breeding and i am keeping relatively on topic but you cannot always explain things in just two posts especially what i am trying to say .

[Andrew overton]

this will be my last post, everyone is entitled to their individual opinions but what iam unhappy about is this, just because i post on this subject does not make me thick and of no knowledge or intelligance. i used to write regularly for hamsoc magazine and also the British hamster association and nearly every month for hamsoc which was the hamster society affiliated to the BHA . On the internet under British Hamster association their is still breeding metheds in the syrian hamster which i wrote along with many others, if this article was wrong in 2002 it would have been with drawn for publication i i would like to remind anyone who breeds three peoples opinions dont make it the hamster bible of everything correct and times have not changed that much in 8 years.
i think it very unfair nooboo making out i know nothing with looking into something in my posts and friendships amongst members is not the way to gang up on like you say internet nobody creating disscussions. both you two have previously upset me on another forum on the exact same subject then one lady brought a similar post back who i must say did not back me wholely but did not disagree neither and you never continued to post
when i finally posted on the light grey that was a one hundred percent honest posting where do you get new blood from the fancy to safely outcross to light grey not one of three previous posters has answered me maybe its because Light grey is not anywhere in the fancy so like i said i may be 46 years old BUT i do no how to breed and i do study closely the animals and if i feel im not happy due to my experience i stop anything which displeases me like the following.
Poor shape head
Poor colour
Litters sizes drops
temeperament but i dont bred bad hamsters mine are very very tame even small babies at 17 days upwards they just get better.
Nails so many dont check this they can be longer than they should aven at a young age.
the ears should be tulip shape all the time not pointing up sharpley like some i have seen of late not pet shop stock neither.
overall health and eye condition too.
i good list more but maybe somone will say im going off topic ,which im not, please let me be and stop having a go maybe i should have named myself andrea and then maybe you would have been kinder in your postings.
soufffle im not prying on age but you would have been around when all those older breeder were around and im sorry to say but i disagree alot did closely breed especially the black eyed creams why do you think they are like they are today.
the gold was the same but bringing in new blood from the black really but the damper on it the rest they say is history goodbye and happy safe breeding everyone.

[nooboo]

The BHA is dead, no one maintains that site, any info on it is not checked to meet current thought. You will not find an article like that on the NHC site.

I also think you confuse people not posting as they are clearly wasting their time with thinking people have been proved wrong.

I can think of people who thought some inbreeding was ok who have been truly horrified by your old article on line breeding. I have maintained since the start on this that the occasional close cross is one thing, line breeding is another. If you fail to understand you can perfect all the things you have said while using unrelated hamsters then i can only wonder as to why you are not understanding.

I believe some are breeding light greys in the country, it may be that you have not found them nor have been offered as they are worried about your breeding practices, just as i wouldnt give over a winter white to someone i thought may breed hybrids, as you yourself knows, you never want to give over hamsters into practices you yourself cannot condone.

also if you have to inbreed to save a colour i would let it go, its not worth it. Many have also gone to other countries to bring in fresh blood and to establish dwindling colours, just as other countries have approached us. There is never an excuse, however as i have said this and more many times to you i will also give up...as it doesn't matter how many times or how many people inform you of current practices and the logic behind them you cannot accept them. this of course is your prerogative.

I hope in the end this question has been answered to the original posters need. It is not done today, there is occasional inbreeding, you will find similarities going many generations back in pedigrees. There is a field of thought that thinks its still acceptable, however there is no one showing in the UK currently that uses the practice as outlined in a BHA article on the subject, a fact highlighted by the pedigrees we receive when purchasing a hamster.

[Hammie.A]

NOOBOO IF I COULD 'LIKE' YOUR POST I WOULD CLICK THE LIKE BUTTON!!!!!

brilliant responses i couldnt agree more with what nooboo is saying
xx

[RachelBrown]

I don’t really want to put the cat among the pigeons the first day I post here, but for the benefit of the original poster I would like to say that people do line breed (for Syrians). At the level of Grandparent to Grandchild or Great-niece or Great-nephew rather than mother to son.

I have only been exposed to the hamster fancy for a year, and what I have observed it that there is a large group who are very anti any kind of line breeding (except on the rare occasion when it might be necessary) and lots of people who are newish and finding their way, and then there are other breeders / showers who are less vocal about their beliefs but when you talk to them one to one they do line breed, all be it as I said great uncle to great niece. The people I am thinking of have been in the fancy 20 years +, and some do very well on the show bench.

I read something a while ago that was to do with line breeding and selection and I really think that is the key, for anyone who is beginning (and I am now thinking of the original poster) line breeding shouldn’t be attempted, as it takes ages to fully understand all the different parts of type.

I thought I was doing well as I had started to see which hamsters had better heads in my litters, then I did a bit of pen stewarding and listened to the judging and my mind was blown. I hadn’t even been thinking about fur, (and there were many other things) I had been focused on size and head shape, and forgotten about the rest of the hamster.

So as a beginner I think you can do far less damage with out-crossing. I would have to go through my pedigrees and check but of the hamsters I have had in from other breeders 1/3 would have line breeding on the pedigree.

And once have hamsters with type I am happy with in the colours I am working on I will probably use some kind of line breeding myself, more than just occasionally, but not always or exclusively.

[nooboo]

think this is a difference in terms, when you are dealing with generations removed and occasionally (which is all i have witnessed in pedigrees of late) its more occasional in breeding, line breeding discussed in the article written by Andrew suggests mother to son, father to daughter and for 4 or more generations...which is hardly the same as an occasional pair that share relations a few generations back.

[souffle]

As predicted I feel this has degenerated, through the comments made regarding breeders and practices into an argument where people feel insulted.
The topic is now closed