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Old 09-28-2022, 03:09 PM   #11
heidii
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Default Re: Actually Ethical Hamster Breeders

He is doing better than previously. Has worked up a real appetite, allows little pets and seems to seek coming out into his playpen now. I would like a friendlier hamster, though. He is definitely against being lifted and avoids my hands at all cost. I imagine I will be able to lift him out of the enclosure some time before the half of next year, if all goes well with ongoing bonding.
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Old 09-28-2022, 05:06 PM   #12
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Default Re: Actually Ethical Hamster Breeders

First thing that comes to mind is no animal is bomb proof. Sure you can know their date of birth and all the history and the parents genetics (should they provide accurate documentation) but ultimately that isn't going to make the slightest difference in the long run because there is also the environmental factors which affect health and longevity. On paper the animal could be the most healthy specimen ever but in reality it could be something that drops dead before it's 6 months old due to an unknown genetic condition. Ria actually is right, what you want is an ideal situation; no problem with that. But that's in a world that doesn't exist. People lie to get what they want.

Just put things into perspective my one dog was from a breeder (note KC is stricter than NHC). This breeder had a licence to breed and was part of the Kennel club. When we got there he was running the equivalent of a puppy farm, we took the dog as he was hinted at destroying the pup. He was perfect temperament and smashed the breed standard. He ended up having inherited allergy issues (and this covered all protein, some veg, pollens, dust, pain killers and anti-inflammatory drugs) Anyway they can test for it as it's a common problem with the breed. We found he had a brain tumour and died before he was 3 years old. - pedigree and clubs really don't mean anything and can actually be detrimental to the dogs health. You'd be nave to think they breed for the animals benefit, it's all ours. It's what we want in a hamster not what the hamster needs. All animals bred are the same which is why there are so many issues today and why so many animals are suffering - they breed for type and can breed to the extreme.

I will touch on the rescue side just because this will directly affect you as you are in rescue/re-home. We are currently in another massive pet dump at the moment. People will continue going to breeders and they aren't going to ensure nor is it possible to ensure in reality that the animals are going to be cared for correctly or be passed on to someone else and then end up in rescue. The system is already at capacity and resources/funds are low. You could essentially be bringing X amount of other hamsters into the system which is already at breaking point, while you're trying to rescue and rehome those discarded. What you need to think is what happened when your rescue is full and there's no homes? What will happen to those that families give up and can't go into a rescue because they're full? What will happen to them?

Why don't you give one of your next rescues a permanent home in Pico's memory? For it doesn't matter their past, you can't change it. A future with you, in a loving caring home will mean more to them, and be much more rewarding for you than I think you realise. You come across as you are scared that history will repeat itself so you think going with the safety blanket of a 'ethically bred' hamster will protect you from that, it won't.

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Old 09-28-2022, 05:20 PM   #13
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Default Re: Actually Ethical Hamster Breeders

Like I said, not something I'm going to change my mind on really. I've had rescues since Pico, and will continue taking in the odd hamster. I have a pedigree dog, I have a mixed breed dog. I am typically not fussed about the sourcing of my animals for as long as they aren't pet-store bought/backyard breeder supporting.

I do support the breeding of animals like hamsters and rats and mice, however. Obviously, since I started rehoming animals (having rescuing/rehoming other types of animals before focusing on hamsters), I understand the importance of adoption. However, animals like hamsters have been wronged by humans. Small genetic pools have really limited the species. I think supporting breeders who focus on expanding genetic pools is something I want to support. I will not change my mind on this, so please don't reply asking me to do so.

I may or may not keep a hamster I rescue. They will be the last hamster, as I've decided 3 is a comfortable number of hamsters for me, 4 being not ideal but I definitely couldn't have any more than that as of the moment. I am as scared as any other owner of their animals dying, I won't hide that. But knowing the date their born, family lines and ailments that occur in their families will be some form or reassurance.

Again, it's not something I want to change my mind on. Please don't add another comment unless it's answering my initial question.
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Old 09-28-2022, 05:50 PM   #14
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Default Re: Actually Ethical Hamster Breeders

Simply put, if you want pedigree and all that entails you go breeder. All 'ethical' breeders are listed on the fancy website because they are judged and breeding is to a specific standard, anyone outside this is typically a red flag because their specimens haven't been judged and therefore it can't be determined if they're of standard. If you want one that ensures all pups are going to a good home that meets the minimum welfare requirements then you need to go rescue. You need to pick one as you can't have both.

You've already found the list of breeders of the fancy, why don't you contact them and talk about their practices and ask all the questions you need to ask? Decent breeders will be happy to answer these and any that dodge a question repeatedly should be a red flag. Once you've settled on one ask to be put on their waiting list. If they don't have one I'd pass.

We can't answer what you want because we aren't said breeder. You need to contact them.
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Old 09-28-2022, 06:04 PM   #15
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Default Re: Actually Ethical Hamster Breeders

I asked in case anyone has any experiences with breeders that they find ethical? Not sure why that is what was missed there. I've been in contact with other breeders, also. Just a matter of deciding which ones I am okay with.

The NHC breeds for showstock. I do not want a hamster simply because it hits all the visual requirements. I want a pedigree so I can see its lineage. I have no need to go to the NHC. If a breeder says they comply with the NHC, I don't see that as a bad thing right away, but that alone doesn't demonstrate the care or practices they actually do.

I want a pedigree hamster from a good breeder. I think that is simple enough, and not something we should label as an "ideal world".

Thanks for your comments, Engel. As helpful as always.
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Old 09-29-2022, 12:01 AM   #16
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Default Re: Actually Ethical Hamster Breeders

I had a pedigree hamster from a well known breeder. She died at only 13 months old.
If you do manage to find a breeder who meets your definition and criteria of "ethical", i would be very interested to hear how they breed and why.
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Old 09-29-2022, 06:04 AM   #17
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Default Re: Actually Ethical Hamster Breeders

You've had your answer not just off me but others too. I'm really not sure why you are asking these questions on a forum where the majority adopt/ have preloved hamsters. Somewhat a pro-rescue forum as you know. You know what criteria a breeder must hit for you, no one else shares that criteria.

It was mentioned about 'ethical' breeders before you got your boy and we told you that a lot own a lot of hamsters, minimal bedding/enrichment. You simply brushed it off and asked for proof. You even had ex-breeders telling you. Now you're shocked of such practices. Whatever we tell you won't be good enough. You're better off asking the breeder questions and making up your own mind as what others consider a good breeder doesn't line up with your own. The southern hamster club has more shows coming up should you be interested.
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Old 09-29-2022, 07:12 AM   #18
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Default Re: Actually Ethical Hamster Breeders

I know this is off topic but i get the impression that you are somewhat disappointed with the pedigree hamster you bought from a breeder at a hamster show.
You say that you would like a friendlier hamster.
Are you trying to find your perfect hamster by trying to find the perfect breeder?
I'm not an advocate for breeding because i'm pro adoption but have to point out that a breeder cannot guarantee the kind of personality a baby hamster will grow into, regardless of how "ethical" they are.
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Old 09-29-2022, 11:11 AM   #19
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Default Re: Actually Ethical Hamster Breeders

I'm not really trying to find the perfect hamster from the perfect breeder. I loved Pico. It was SO rewarding having one of the most known skittish types of hamsters comfortably sit on my hand to eat. I loved his personality and how interested he was in what I was doing, whether that be out of the cage or in the cage. I know how perfect Pico was before he passed, and definitely know I can get something similar through adoption.

I don't think you have to be one or the other with adoption/breeding. I rescue wherever I can and rehome, this being more than just hamsters. I rely on people wanting to adopt a hamster. I have no issues with hamsters who may have been neglected in previous homes.

With that being said, I think it's common knowledge that the hamsters we have today have many health problems. I firmly believe this is due to the small sample size we initially collected for domestication. This has been a consistent issue with pet stores and backyard breeders, where the linage of a hamster has always gone unknown. I really want to emphasise that I understand the importance of adopting. However, with the consistent genetic issues and poor health that hamsters, rats, and mice all consistently face, I think it is really important to focus on breeding healthier, stronger and more resilient hamsters if we are to keep on owning them. This thread was solely to ask people if they have any experiences with breeders who they thought were really good, really caring and bred for the longevity, health and temperament of the species. I like the concept of all hamsters having a better chance at life by having stronger genetics but that can only be done by supporting breeders who care.

Again, Engel. Really informative comments as always. I was adamant about rescuing before Neptr, if you want to go through my posts, please don't pick and choose. Here I talk about how I have been looking for a hamster on all the websites that are appropriate for hamster rehoming. Following Neptr, the ONLY hamster to come up within the following month or two (and may I specify, actually went through. Some did come up but they were quickly given to family members instead of rehoming) was Pico, who I also took in. As I specified earlier, I am no longer interested in solely supporting a breeder based on their associations with the NHC. I did also admit to my faults in my first post of this thread, which you so kindly brought up again. I admit I was blinded by the concept of finally getting a hamster, thought I was doing better than supporting a pet store, and blindly agreed that a Pedigree & compliance with the NHC meant I was doing good. With that being said, I believe Towy Vale did care for the hamsters, however their information was outdated and I only want to support breeders who consistently update themselves on new care. It isn't a hard thing to ask for a pedigree hamster and a breeder who rehomes out to 100x50cm enclosures. Not sure why we're making it out to be, as this only validates poor breeding.

--
I don't like the direction of where this thread is headed. It never meant to spark issues with people. I just wanted to hear from people who had good experiences with breeders. I am not going to continue replying as clearly we just have different views. I agree with adoption, I love adopting and rehoming, however I also agree with making the species we all love healthier through proper breeding. Thanks for the replies.
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