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Old 02-20-2013, 12:30 AM   #11
Susie
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Default Re: Woudl mice motehrs have intercours with their children?

I have 10 females and 2 males... At that young age i'd look at the anogenital distance.. The difference is there's a biggish gap between boys bits and a small one between girls bits
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:04 AM   #12
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Default Re: Woudl mice motehrs have intercours with their children?

Thanks a lot for all your replies, it really is appreciated and helps a lot that there are knowledgeable people there and support as I was quite distressed. We didnt have a jar that was suitable at home yesterday so I stuck the "babies" separately in a spare cage with lots of bars and a plastic tube where they climbed on so I could have a good look at their "bits". I first thought Cherry was male as it looked like there was something sticking out but then I noticed Sandy's ( the other baby) private parts look the same but she also has two little dots that look like two nipples at the bottom of her belly so I am a bit confused. My boyfriend had a look at the link with the pictures and then the babies as well and he seems to think they look more like females and said that what I see as sticking out is probably the skin and i do have to admit it looks more like a little mouth as seen on the pictures and not like the boy equivalent.


In the meantime I checked on their behaviour and so far it is only Joan, the mother, that occasionally goes on top of them (and she is definitely a female) and puts the paw on their head which i think is just showing that she is the dominant one. I am getting a jam jar or so today and do another check and hopefully I am wiser. At least it seems certain that the babies are the same gender which should make it easier once I get a better look or one gets more developed.

I keep you posted! I really do hope they are all females as I am already so used to them I wouldnt want to have to give one away. I have room for one more cage but three cages would cause a problem, I already have two hammies and two guinea pigs
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:26 AM   #13
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Default Re: Woudl mice motehrs have intercours with their children?

The little `dots` you see on the abdomen near the genitals are nipples, so any mice you have with these dots are female. Males don`t have them. So you want to be looking for thes little faint dots on the tummies. Pet shops can be notorious for mis-sexing mice, but don`t panic. Take your time and look closely at each mouse in turn, without stressing them. Try and wait until late evening when they are usually more active anyway. The gap between the males genitals will be that bit wider than a females aswell, although it can be tricky to see unless you have a trained eye for it.

The nipples are what I would suggest you look for and they are usually more visable near the genital end. Use a magniflying glass as this will help get a closer look.
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Old 02-20-2013, 04:54 PM   #14
Kissa
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Default Re: Woudl mice motehrs have intercours with their children?

I'd try taking pictures, actually. I know when I was trying to work out if my Robo was a girl like P@H claimed (he wasn't ) as soon as I put him down I'd worry that I'd imagined it or got it wrong or something. Taking a picture of him meant that I didn't have to keep stressing him out checking whenever I worried about whether I was right or not
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Old 02-21-2013, 03:05 AM   #15
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Default Re: Woudl mice motehrs have intercours with their children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kissa View Post
All captive Syrian hamsters are descended from one specimen and her pups
Actually, through my research, I've been discovering that this simply can't be true. If one litter and their mother were the soul ancestors of today's captive hamster population, then they would have had a severe genetic bottleneck and thus, the line would have severely weakened and all sorts of diseases known from severe genetic inbreeding would have cropped up, and then the line would have died out or be, at best, very sickly today.

Its much more probable. and I am certain this is the case, that a series of female hamsters and their pups and perhaps a few males, were taken from the wild over time and thus bred into the existing domestic lines to allow fresh genetic material to enter and strengthen the linage our current domestic hamsters have today.
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Old 02-21-2013, 04:13 PM   #16
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Default Re: Woudl mice motehrs have intercours with their children?

Actually:

Quote:
Since 1930, only a few golden hamsters have been caught in their natural distribution area in Syria and Turkey. All those animals failed to breed and therefore the original gene pool has not been generally affected until now (Gattermann e t al. 2001 ).
From here.

Quote:
The entire laboratory population of golden hamsters originated from a single brother-sister pairing in 1930 (Aharoni, 1932) with the exception of 12 wild animals brought to the U.S.A. in 1971 (Murphy, 1985).
From here. There doesn't appear to be any evidence that the animals captured in 1971 were bred with the domestic lab population (link). (The "Murphy, 1985" above is a reference to Murphy's book, and since he was the one that acquired the hamsters in 1971, I think it's safe to say that if he bred his animals into the general domestic population, he would have mentioned it. Unfortunately I can't find an online copy of his book.)

I also have found many references to all domestic Syrians being descended from the same female, as proven by analysis of mitochondrial DNA. Again, I can't find an actual paper on this, but so many places reference it I'm going to assume the paper actually does exist.

Furthermore:

Quote:
Genetic tests revealed a reduced number of alleles (2.5 0.3 vs 7.8 0.6) and a low degree of observed heterozygosity (0.15 0.05 vs 0.69 0.03) in laboratory strains (Fritzsche e t a l. 2000a)
ie, there is far less genetic diversity in lab/domestic Syrians than there are in the wild. Basically, there is actually a genetic bottleneck in Syrians. (I feel dirty quoting wikipedia, but it actually states "The golden hamster is a similarly bottlenecked species".)

Unfortunately, the paper referenced once again isn't available (I can only find as far back as volume 104 online, and I want volume 103). I can't even find an abstract!

Up until 1999, at least, I can't find any evidence that new blood was added to the original population descended from the hamsters in 1930. I also doubt that the new population created in 1999 were interbred with the domestic population, but I am tired and can't be bothered to research more
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:05 AM   #17
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Default Re: Woudl mice motehrs have intercours with their children?

I would second the idea of taking some photographs. It feels a little mean, but it really helps. I shamed Crumpet & Muffin when they were young ones, sold as girls, I was convinced Crumpet was pregnant and Muffin was a boy, both turned out to be boys. It really helps for someone with a trained eye to take a look.
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Old 02-22-2013, 03:14 PM   #18
njwilde
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Default Re: Woudl mice motehrs have intercours with their children?

Yes, the pictures would be good if they weren't moving so fast. I tried to take pictures before when they were eating, that's all I can do, all other pictures have just the wrong mouse parts on it or nobody at all. I know what you mean with feeling mean towards them, though, I ve been feeling like a right perv letching at all the mice private parts My conclusion so far is though. Cherry and Sandy look the same to me at their bits with the difference that Sandy has two nipples so that should hopefully indicate that they are both females. I will keep checking though as they have both grown quite a bit over the last week so it should get easier to tell.

They ve now started trusting me again, though after teh cleaning and l
taking out for inspection they got quite skittish but at leats they don't run away straight away nbow, Sandy actually lets me stroke her, so I am quite grateful and hopeful

Interesting fact about the hamster breed though too!
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