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Old 06-18-2017, 06:26 AM   #11
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Default Re: Wood shavings to Carefresh.

I have pets at home bedding. It just smells like wood. I would do it gradually. Nobody wants a stressed hamster.
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Old 06-18-2017, 06:53 AM   #12
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Default Re: Wood shavings to Carefresh.

Conflicting advice is simply due to wood shavings in the US not always being safe which can lead to some confusion, even if she seems laid back I would still never change all her substrate at once, it really isn't fair to a ham to remove their scent completely.
Leave the sand in the cage all the time.
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Old 06-18-2017, 11:20 AM   #13
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Default Re: Wood shavings to Carefresh.

If it's definitely safe, I'm not going to change it.
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Old 06-18-2017, 12:35 PM   #14
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Default Re: Wood shavings to Carefresh.

I noticed in the description of the product it said it was softwood shavings. Pine and cedar are both softwoods, aspen is a hardwood. It could be kiln dried pine however it could also be cedar but I'm unsure if they sell this in the U.K. If they do sell cedar in the U.K. or at P@H I would go ahead and change the bedding because it could possibly be cedar or a pine/cedar mix.
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Old 06-18-2017, 12:50 PM   #15
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Default Re: Wood shavings to Carefresh.

It's safe.
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Old 06-18-2017, 04:36 PM   #16
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Default Re: Wood shavings to Carefresh.

I know there's conflicting opinions here, and I being in the US, can't really add too much. However, if you're concerned, it's better safe than sorry. Just gradually switch off and onto carefresh, this way there's no debate as to whether or not it's safe. I personally dislike all soft woods, kiln dried or not. Kiln drying does not take away all the resins and scents therefore I just don't like it. Others do (as some gerbil owners I have spoken to make VERY clear), and that's their choice and opinion, I won't argue with that. However, I will share that mine is a bit different. In the end it's your hamster, and if you wish to keep them on cedar or anything else, that's your choice and nobody can control that. All we can do is suggest and you can take whoever's advice you want or none of ours. You can keep it if you'd like, or you can change it just in case- it's all up to you
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Old 06-18-2017, 04:42 PM   #17
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Default Re: Wood shavings to Carefresh.

Drago brings up an excellent point on kiln drying.I know a while back on the forum there was a bit of discussion involving myself about kiln dried wood,and it was determined that the scent(and most likely phenols as well)were never 100% removed even with kiln drying.This was especially true once wood got urinated on or otherwise wet,so in the most unscientific way possible it seems as though kiln drying merely puts the phenols into some sort of temporary period of inactivity and then once rehydrated they reactivate.
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Old 06-18-2017, 10:37 PM   #18
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Default Re: Wood shavings to Carefresh.

I'm not going to stress her out on a "maybe."

I've been talking to my friend who keeps Syrians on exactly the same stuff and has done for years with no ill effects at all. Her current ham is over three. she said she talked to the PAT manufacturing company years ago and they told her it's dried pine. Cypher was right in saying that it's illegal to sell anything else in the UK.

I've got the Carefresh coming tomorrow and I'll add a bit when I clean her cage on Friday but I'm not going to super stress her out just because people don't like dried (safe) pine.

I don't really like wood shavings myself but it's only £2.50 for a bale that lasts a good three cage changes where as Carefresh is £7.00 and wouldn't last half as long.

Thanks for all the opinions on it and thanks to Cypher for definitely putting my mind at ease.
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:09 PM   #19
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Default Re: Wood shavings to Carefresh.

You don't have to change it, it was just a suggestion. I personally want to clarify that the confusion (at least on my part, I can't speak for other US members) was not due to me not knowing that the shavings in the UK are kiln dried. I am fully aware that they are- some in the US are as well! The reason I advised against them is due to my knowledge (as someone who owns hamsters and is highly involved in the woodworking hobby) on how the kiln drying process works. I know many do disagree, but kiln drying really does not remove all the phenols and other things. Kiln drying isn't even meant to do that in the first place! Kiln drying is done to remove excess water and kill any insects that may still be inside. However, it does not take away all the phenols and I personally don't like to leave things because it's "possible" that no harm will come of it. I can share for a fact that there is one chemical within pine that is an irritant, and isn't removed during kiln drying, here is a quote regarding it,
"One of the problematic chemicals in pine wood is abietic acid, which is a known skin and respiratory irritant. Abietic acid is a stable solid found within the matrix of the wood. Because it is a solid, the only way to get it out of the wood would be to melt or boil it off. It requires temperatures of at least 282F to melt, and temperatures of over 800F to boil. Pine is only kiln-dried at temperatures of up to 180F, which isn't nearly hot enough to melt the abiectic acid."
In case anyone's interested in how the actual kiln drying process works here,
http://www.nyle.com/downloads/KilnDrying.pdf
Again, it's to remove water, not phenols. If you want to learn where phenols tend to stay here is something on that, Phenolic profile within the fine-root branching orders of an evergreen species highlights a disconnect in root tissue quality predicted by elemental- and molecular-level carbon composition - Wang - 2015 - New Phytologist - Wiley Online Library
It is due to all this, and understanding wood species as well as the processing of them that I choose not to recommend nor use any kiln dried softwoods. This is just my opinion and if anyone thinks differently, that's 100% acceptable and fine. Everyone can do what they wish and it's not my business to say otherwise, but I will still share my opinion when asked for.
I do also want to comment on the point of "X has done it and they're fine, so it must be fine". This really isn't a good mentality of looking at things. Just because you feed a dog chocolate and they're fine, doesn't mean dogs should have chocolate. Hamsters live for years in crittertrails just fine, they also survive their whole lives on pine and cedar, and are given baths daily by their owners yet still survived many years. If we used this mentality, almost anything would be acceptable! These again though, are just my thoughts.

I'm not going to comment further as all I wanted to do was clarify my stance, and now I have done so. I really do not mean any disrespect to anybody here. This is an amazing community filled with highly knowledgeable people. However, amongst these people, there are many different opinions. You're going to have to learn how to ask each person their reasoning and choose which one you feel is most logical. This is a resource for you to get advice, and you must know what to do with having several different opinions. There's more than one way to keep a hamster and that's just fine The paragraph explaining how kiln drying works was not to dissuade you, you've made your decision and I respect that. Rather, it was to clarify my stance on the issue. Good luck with your ham!
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Old 06-19-2017, 02:04 PM   #20
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Default Re: Wood shavings to Carefresh.

http://www.hammysworld.com/index.php?p=corinnefayo
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