Color combination

[VanillaMocha]

Hey all. I've got a few questions, I decided to put this here instead of the breeders section. So I've got some hamsters and I'm trying to decide which two would produce the best colors. I can do:

Mink to Black
Mink to Golden banded
Mink to Black banded
Mink to Cream
OR
Sable to Black
Sable to Golden banded
Sable to Black banded
Sable to Cream
OR
Sable banded to Black
Sable banded to Golden banded
Sable banded to Black banded
Sable banded to Cream


I know your not suppose to do banded to banded, but I haven't had issues with it before. The reason I'm asking is because my last litters all I got was mink,sable,sable banded,cinnamon banded, and some golden's and I'd like to see if my girls can throw different colors. I'm really liking the idea of black to sable.

[kyrilliondaemon]

Er... You do realise that responsible breeding would mean you could answer these questions before you considered the breeding right?
And do you realise exactly why banded to banded is bad? It can produce severely deformed hamsters who will die young and likely suffer during the life they do have. Are you really up to risk breeding hamsters like that just because you've never bred them before? The only time thats at all safe is if you know like the last 20 generations of both lines... And even then its risky.

Not going to get into this but am just going to say that you should be able to answer these yourself and never consider banded to banded if you want to be at all a responsible breeder...

[VanillaMocha]

I have bred hamsters before, I've raised 60+ hamsters. Never once have I had an issue. I always seem to have issues with you. As a breeder, you can't just jump into everything and know every single hamster or question. I was asking for the better of the hamsters, to help improve my knowledge. I knew I shouldn't of asked, because I'd get answers just like yours.

[kyrilliondaemon]

As a breeder, you could always look it up and work it out yourself?
Its exactly what I'd have had to do for everything except sable to cream and anything involving goldens.

[VanillaMocha]

I did and I'm not getting any answers out of it.

[Biscotti]

Originally Posted by VanillaMocha

As a breeder, you can't just jump into everything and know every single hamster or question. I was asking for the better of the hamsters, to help improve my knowledge. I knew I shouldn't of asked, because I'd get answers just like yours.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but you shouldn't be cross at kryill. So maybe she could use a bit more tact, but she's telling you what you need to hear. Breeding to see "if my girls can throw different colors" isn't a good reason when you can't figure out the genetics. An ethical breeder should CERTAINLY be able to know about the genetics of your own hams and the expected litters. If not the at the top of your head, then have the reference at hand before you decide to breed. If you can answer the question of how you are bettering the specie by breeding rather than for your own satisfaction, please go to Syrian Hamster Genetics and read up on the colors you're interested in.

[Kissa]

Black to Sable honestly sounds... redundant. I agree with what both kyrilliondaemon and Biscotti have said (including the link Biscotti gave, I was going to link it too) and am actually a bit concerned that you don't know why banded to banded is bad. Yes, having two copies of the banded gene is fine, and that'll be why you've not had issues before, but banded hamsters can hide the white bellied gene, and two copies of that make the hamster eyeless whites.

That said, I will answer your questions, mainly because I want to test out my own knowledge

• Mink (eeppU-) to Black (aa): All golden (AaEePp) some or all umbrous depending on if the Mink is homozygous for umbrous (AaEePpUu).
• Mink (eeppU-) to Golden banded (Ba-): All goldens (EePp) with some or all bandeds (BabaEePp) depending on if the Golden is Baba or BaBa, and some or all umbrous (EePpUu) depending on if the Mink is eeppUu or eeppUU, unless there are shared recessives.
• Mink (eeppU-) to Black banded (aaBa-): All goldens (AaEePp) with some or all bandeds (AaBabaEePp) depending on whether the Black is aaBaba or aaBaBa, and some or all umbrous (AaEePpUu) depending on whether the Mink is eeppUu or eeppUU, unless there are shared recessives.
• Mink (eeppU-) to Cream (ee or eepp): Depending on whether it is BEC (ee) or REC (eepp) you'll get BECs and Sables (eePpuu, eePpUu) or RECs and minks (eeppuu, eeppUu). If your mink is homozygous for umbrous (eeppUU) you'll get all Sables/Minks (eePpUu or eeppUu). Of course, unless there are shared recessives.
• Sable (eeU-) to Black (aa): All goldens (AaEe), some or all umbrous (aaeeUu) depending on whether the Sable is eeUu or eeUU, unless there are shared recessives.
• Sable (eeU-) to Golden banded (Ba-): All goldens (Ee), some or all banded (EeBaba) depending on if the Golden is Baba or BaBa, some or all umbrous (EeUu) depending on if the Sable is eeUu or eeUU, unless there are shared recessives.
• Sable (eeU-) to Black banded (aaBa-): All goldens (AaEe), some or all banded (AaBabaEe) depending on if the Black is aaBaba or aaBaBa, some or all umbrous (AaEeUu) depending on if the Sable is eeUu or eeUU, unless there are shared recessives.
• Sable (eeU-) to Cream (ee or eepp depending if BEC or REC): Black eyed creams and Sables (ee[Pp]uu, ee[Pp]Uu) or all Sables (eePpUu) depending on whether the Sable parent is homozygous eeUU or heterozygous eeUu, unless there are shared recessives.
• Sable banded (Ba-eeU-) to Black (aa): All goldens (AaEe), some or all bandeds (AaBabaEe) depending on if the Sable is BabaeeU- or BaBaeeU-, some or all umbrous (AaEeUu) depending on if the Sable is Ba-eeUu or ba-eeUU, unless there are shared recessives.
• Sable banded (Ba-eeU-) to Golden banded (Ba-): Risk of eyeless whites if the banded hamsters are carrying a hidden white bellied gene. Banded goldens (Ba-Ee) with some or all umbrous (Ba-EeUu) depending on whether the Sable is Ba-eeUu or Ba-eeUU, unless there are shared recessives.
• Sable banded (Ba-eeU-) to Black banded (aaBa-): Risk of eyeless whites if the banded hamsters are carrying a hidden white bellied gene. Banded goldens and umbrous goldens (AaBa-Eeuu, AaBa-EeUu) unless there are shared recessives.
• Sable banded (Ba-eeU-) to Cream (ee or eepp if BEC or REC): All Cream (ee[Pp]), some or all umbrous (ee[Pp]Uu) depending on if the Sable is Ba-eeUu or Ba-eeUU, some or all banded (Babaee[Pp]) depending on if the Sable is BabaeeU- or BaBaeeU-, unless there are shared recessives.

Any breeders, correct me if I am wrong!

[vanilla-yazoo]

That looks about right to me Kissa, I have just woken up from a bad nights sleep so its a bit of a blur!

out of those colours the most stable colourings would be mink x ceam and sable/banded to cream, this is because they are cream line colours and you will know (if you have the pedigree's) what they carry and you will know what you will get.
I think should I do syrian breeding again I will probably do a more sensible cream baised colour rather then dgdgee ivorys x.x

I know in some places its hard to get pedigree hamsters but please do try and get ones with good backgrounds, the last thing you want is a problem with the litter, and having had 2 terrible litters that where well reserched and planned months and months in advance.

Maybe if you are somewhere without pedigree's you can start your own pedigree line, work on a colour line that isnt crazily complicated, note down each hamsters name and colour as you breed it into the line.

We just want to promote healthy breeding, using hamsters or any animal from a mill wont give the best of starts, but I do know that on the odd occasion, a litter from a pet shop hamster is allowed, for eg the cloud, who now is on the 4'th generation
Have a look at duncton hamstery's genetics page, it has a lot of info on colour parings and how genes and recessive genes work.

[Lougarry]

The point, Vanilla, is that the result of a mating isn't just about the colours you can see, but what might be in a hamster's genetic lineage. I know nothing about genetics, so asked someone knowledgeable to review both Aki and Monty's pedigrees side by side to check for compatibility and any potential genetic problems before attempting to mate them. If you search on the forum for eyeless whites you will understand why it is so heartbreaking if an accidental mating 'throws' this sort of mutation. In a breeding programme (as opposed to a one-off mating to produce pets with lovely temperaments) I would expect you to know what you are trying to achieve in terms of colour, conformation, etc, but you don't seem to.

[souffle]

kissa has done an excellent job.
These only apply though with pure animals who carry no other hidden recessives. Even animals with very long pedigrees can carry hidden recessive genes from a long way back. Though you can predict what to expect and generally it is more or less correct you can never account for random things cropping up in the genetic lottery.
Learning simple genetics is really important when breeding any sort of animals and with hamsters it is much more important to consider health and temperament over what colours you will get in the big scheme of things. Most hamsters end up as pets and will have a much better life if they are healthy and of sound temperament.