Rescue or breeder?

[Gust0o]

Here here, Holly!

A very good post!

[Catja]

Couldn't have said it better myself Holly.

My first 2 hams came from petshops, they are lovely and I didn't know about hobby breeders and for a lot of people its impractical to travel miles anyway.

Banning the sale of animals will simply push it underground, what needs to be dealt with are the very loose laws governing the sale and breeding of animals and for council inspectors to do their jobs properly!

We also probably lose sight of the fact that although many hamsters may not be kept in large cages etc, they are probably happy, are loved and taken care of by their owners.

Petshops should really take the lead educating people on animal husbandry and only selling those cages suitable for the animals

[jayne]

That was well said Holly!

Dont get me wrong, if i was to walk into a petshop and see a little hamster that i fell in love with (which we all know about on here!) then i would not think to myself for a minute that because it isnt from a breeder that i wouldnt take the little one home.
As i have said, its only the space that is preventing me from getting anymore at the minute. Only a few days ago i was in a [etshop and could have easily taken one if not two home with me :P

But i do see exactly where you are coming from and agree with you there Holly

[daffee]

Although I can understand your way of thinking as many people think the same, the problem with buying pet shop animals is that you are not looking at the bigger picture.

Yes these animals have the potential to be just as nice pets as any others. Yes they are deserving of a good home. But for every single pet shop animal that you buy out of pity another one will be bred. These animals are not bred by happy caring animal lovers. They are mass-produced in barn type buildings with row upon row of breeding females bred back to back with no thought for the health or temperament of the parents, no effort to handle or tame the animals prior to sale to a pet shop and no thought as to the future of these animals beyond making them money. It breaks my heart to see animals for sale in pet shops, especially when they are being kept in poor conditions by staff who know nothing. But by purchasing these animals you are supporting a heartless trade.

Pet shops and their rodent farm suppliers are subject to minimum standards and inspections. But these are indeed minimum. Campaigning to make these standards better is great, but the reality is that this will never be achieved. Think of all the cruelty to animals that goes on in labs and for food production that it all within the law. The Government has no interest whatsoever in ensuring that pet shops buy animals that have had a good and appropriate start in life.

Pet shops sell indiscriminately to pretty much anyone. They sell animals with too small cages, inappropriate food and bedding to people who do not know any better. They are solely trying to make money. The bulk of their money is made from the accessories, not the animal. But they rely on people impulse buying an animal so that then they have to get the cage, food, bedding, toys etc as well. This is not an ethical business.

If pet shops did not sell animals then yes it may well become harder for people to find pets. But they would still be being bred and people would no longer be able to impulse buy them as easily. This could only be a good thing. Yes there would be problems with BYBs (back yard breeders) as there is now, but at least one of the two would have been eliminated and we could work to educate people against indiscriminately breeding their pets and point people towards decent ethical breeders instead.

I strongly believe in this cause after reading about and seeing the reality of a rodent farm and suffering the heart-ache of poorly bred pet shop animals. I appreciate that not everyone will agree, but I do think it is important for people to understand the full reasoning behind the campaigns against pet shops selling animals. If I can help persuade even just one person away from buying from a pet shop then that is something to me.

*gets off soap-box*

[Mollz]

Bravo Julie, it was veery well said and I have to say that I agree.

I think our time would be much better spent trying to improve laws on keeping and selling animals and get rid of stupid cages such as the OVO! That would make for more animals happier and is much more likely to happen than any ban on selling animals on shops would. Having said that the world would be a far better place if only responsible breeders were aloud to sell animals - but I just don't see that it is ever going to happen. So I feel that we should all focus on realistic targets regarding laws on how these animals are kept/sold.

[Holly]

Originally Posted by daffee

Although I can understand your way of thinking as many people think the same, the problem with buying pet shop animals is that you are not looking at the bigger picture.

Oh I've looked at the bigger picture, believe me. In fact, when you posted your pictures of the rodent farm, I was utterly horrified and I spent a long time looking at "evidence" gathered by PETA and other organisations. I signed the petition and I vowed never to buy from a petshop again. It was only by reading other people's posts on forums like this - people who were usually shot down in flames by some (I'm sorry but I have to say it) sometimes very self-righteous people that I began to see the real bigger picture.

The reality is that, as long as there is a demand for a specific number of animals then someone will continue to breed that number. Yes, if everyone stopped buying animals in petshops then petshops would stop selling them. The reality is that everyone won't stop. The vast majority of the millions of people worldwide buying animals in petshops are "lay people" who just want a pet - they will never even discover there's a campaign to stop buying in petshops - let alone read about it understand it.

Yes, I care about animals and I hate the thought of animal cruelty, I get just as upset about it as the next person who understands what happens. I've just changed full-circle from someone who believes that, by not buying a petshop animal, I'm helping make things better. I don't believe that anymore and I'm a bit fed up of other people telling me and others not to buy our hamsters in petshops. The animals there, who've already been bred, are just as deserving of a loving home as any other.

A far better way, in my opinion, would be to campaign for proper standards in petshops and breeding mills and for the powers to police it. It would be to lobby cage manufacturers and petshops to sell suitable caging and to train their staff appropriately. There is no reason why petshops couldn't do more to vet prospective owners - they just don't want to.

If there was a code of conduct and we only bought from petshops subscribing to it I'd be all for that.

I'll get off my soap box now - we always agree to disagree here!

[Spuds Mum]

Originally Posted by daffee

Although I can understand your way of thinking as many people think the same, the problem with buying pet shop animals is that you are not looking at the bigger picture.

With total respect daffee, I honestly think that Holly and other posters are aware of the bigger picture. We have had posts and conversations on this topic on many threads over the time I have been a member of HC.

I think along very similar lines to Holly's post above and have raised similar points in previous threads. I'm not anti pet shop hamster, I am anti unethical breeding of hamsters for the pet trade (and again I dont necessarily include all large scale breeders in this - I don't actually personally know any large scale breeders/rodent farms).

If we were to ban sale of pet shop hamsters tomorrow, thousands of children (and adults) would be deprived of the pleasure of knowing and caring for what is a wonderful pet. There would not be enough rescues to fill this gap, and hobby breeders such as myself cannot fulfill the needs, also there are not enough of us for there to be a local breeder for each area.

The closing of large scale breeders would however open a market for local breeders who would just put their pet hamsters together to make money possibly, without providing adequate care or an understanding of the potential problems.

I personally would wish we never had another hamster needing rescue (or any other animal for that matter). I wish that people had locally hobby breeder hamsters available to them, fit tame and healthy from the day of buying them. Unfortunately the reality of the world we live in makes this goal a long way away, and therefore I would prefer to, like Holly, consider how we can change the current practices to help the animals and pet owners alike.

*also steps off steel reinforced soap box!!

[Holly]

Ahem...yes and I need to apologiese to Teresa for previous discussions - I didn't see your point then but I do now

[Spuds Mum]

Originally Posted by Holly

Ahem...yes and I need to apologiese to Teresa for previous discussions - I didn't see your point then but I do now

*confused* why Julie? we just had different viewpoints at a certain time, but you never flamed me in any way or made me feel 'got at'.
Frankly, I was at the time quite relieved we felt differently about this - we think so similarly on other things I was about to suggest we shared a forum name!

[Matty Day]

why cant we have a nhc standard for pet shops so people know if they are buying from a good pet shops i.e. they keep hamsters under good quality conditions and source them from good quality breeder be it big commercial breeder of a hobby breeder and vet the owners. I am sure many pet shops would apply if it existed as it would be hell of a thing to put in there window.

And if they were inspected regularly and a notice be mandatory put in the window with a number to call reporting abuse and proof that the breeder keeps them in the same high standards were expected we could have better pets shops

And it could be used to control the growth of hybrids as it could be added to the standard that hybrids must not be sold

Is there anyway I can get this looked at through the south of England which I am a member