The Austrain Hamster License Debate

[TheFeldhamster]

Interesting, I had not heard of that in the general media (I'm too skimpy to subscribe to Rodentia) so it might be a fluke/random ministerial sound bite that never gets acted on.

Anyway, I like the idea of a "pet license". Reptile owners already have to have something similar and they have to report the animals they own and their living conditions to the state vet. They even have to expect random home visits. Of course, due to not enough personnel not that many home visits are actually done but you never know if it's going to be you or not.

I don't see "people might go underground" as a valid argument, either. Those would be the crappy breeders so nothing would change - exept that THEN you could actually fine them/confiscate the animals. As it is, at the moment they can only confiscate animals if a crappy breeder has extremely bad conditions (think animal hoarder where the neighbors complain because of the extreme smell). Someone with "just" teensy tiny cages which don't overflow with dirt can't be touched at all with the current laws.

Many of the crappy breeders are people who invest no more than €2,- to raise eg a hamster and then sell it off for €10,- so they have €8,- per baby as a little "side money". But for this to amount to anything worthwhile you have to have quite a number of litters per year. So they have to make their money with volume and need to advertise their litters. If you make them illegal then it's dangerous for them to advertise on widely read portals - which makes it much harder to sell many animals which makes the whole enterprise unprofitable so they'd probably give up breeding.

I think the secret breeder thing only really works for dogs or cats or expensive species where you could get at least 400,- per animal (as opposed to say, 700,- or more from a good breeder). With 400,- per animal you'll have, say 2000,- if you sell a litter of 5, that's a sum that makes it worth for some people to take considerable risks. With the 10,- or 20,- that people are willing to pay for a small rodent you don't get much even if you have a litter of 10 or 12 to sell. There are much less people who are willing to take a risk for 120,- or even 240,- than for 2000,-. And it's not like in the reptile scene where some species are really rare and prices would increase dramatically if you cut down the breeder pool. I don't think prices for small rodents would go through the roof if the crappy breeders were weeded out.

I also see no connection to the copyright ads on DVDs. The problem with the copyright thing on the DVD or in the cinema is that they tell me not to steal AFTER I have already paid. THIS is what angers me on DVDs (and why we've been boycotting going to the cinema the last 5 years). I just popped down a bunch of money and THEN get told not to steal the very same thing I just bought? Hello?
Only if you were to get your license and then go to the licensed breeder and then get told off would it compare to me.

Anyway, back to the animal license - there'd be many ways to implement that in a useful way. Eg. if you could take that course at an animal rescue the rescue could get to keep the money (or part of it) so it would be a money generator for them AND make them more known. Most average people in the street have no idea that there is a "Hamsterhilfe" (hamster rescue). But if were the law that you can only have a hamster after getting a license and then you look around who offers the course and it lists the Hamsterhilfe then you notice them.

Not being able to give your illegal pet to a rescue is also no argument. First, you could make the law so that giving up your illegal pet makes you immune to any charges of having kept an illegal pet. That'd provide an easy way out. And second - at least at shelters many hamsters are not given up officially anyway but rather the employees of the shelter find an anonymous box with the animals in front of their door. Because it costs money to give up your animal at a shelter. For the private rescue orgs this is different because they mostly scour the small ads and actively go out to adopt animals. But irresponsible owners would not know about private rescue orgs anyway. Anyway - easily fixable by making an immunity law (a bit like whistleblower immunity works now).

The license might also be offered as an activity in schools like they offer the bicycle license now. With the bicycle license you are allowed to drive your bike on the street even if you're under 12 years old and riding alone.

I think those people who are now active on forums and well educated would not mind having to do the course if it was also offered by rescue orgs for a reasonable fee/contribution.

The only drawback I can conceive is that people might be afraid to go to the vet with an illegal animal - but then those kind of people who are too skimpy to take 2hrs and maybe €10-20 to take a course for a license don't bring a hamster to a vet anyway. Why do you think there are so few vets who have good knowledge of rodents even though so many rodents are kept as pets? Because apart from the few forum enthusiasts nobody brings them in when they are sick!

I am also for a sales ban, at least in shops which are not specifically pet shops. Eg. most big hardware stores now have a pet section and I really really want them banned. Because people go there to pick up construction stuff, the kids get bored, get sent to the pet section and then the family comes home with an impulse-bought pet. Arrrggghhh! As if pet shops and the impulse-buys of people who went to pick up bedding and food and came home with an extra pet were not bad enough. (I really want those banned as well, but I'd be happy if they at least started with the hardware stores and similar.)

From what I've seen, the more restrictive laws did the reptile population a lot of good. In my childhood you could buy wild-caught tortoises for €10,- at every pet shop and nobody cared how you treated them. They were considered the perfect kid's pet which had no demands and if it died - who cared, it's only €10,- to get a new one. A lot of my school friends had tortoises as well and we all kept them really badly. I'm still ashamed of the conditions they had to live in.

Nowadays, all of them need to have CITES papers, you need to register them and their housing with the state vet, etc and because this is all difficult they cost €100,- upwards. And voila - suddenly demand has taken a deep, deep dive and I'd guess 95% of the tortoise owners are interested adults who take really good care of them. SO much better for the animals!

I see this as the same discussion as the dog license they recently introduced in Vienna for some breeds (those which are supposedly more dangerous). There were many people who voiced the same concern that the people who willingly take the test will be those who don't need it anyway and that the rescues will overflow with the unwanted "dangerous" dogs. Yup, the rescues currently do overflow with those dogs because their owners were not willing to take the test. But those are the people who should not be allowed to own that kind of dog anyway! I'm sorry for those dogs but hell I'm glad that the guy who stalked our area and threatened everybody with his two "dangerous" dogs now suddenly doesn't have those dogs anymore! Yes, for the dogs now in the shelter it's not so nice - but a) can we be sure that it wasn't worse at their former owners? I mean if they were too skimpy/stupid/aggressive/poor to take the test that does not really hint at great keeping conditions either. and b) in a couple of years those dogs will have gone to heaven and since no new "dangerous" dogs can be gotten by unlicensed people we will see a sharp decline and the problem will be solved. Yup, the list of which breed is "dangerous" and which not is stupid and wrong (eg the German shepard was exempted from the list even though most bites are due to German shepards). That's why I wish they'd require the test of all dog owners (or at least of all who have anything bigger than a Chihuahua).

[Lynternette]

Kiania, I totally agree. Children should be taught responsibility towards animals from a young age. My lad has always had a pet of some kind. Maybe if they learned the love a pet has to give there wouldn't be so much animal cruelty. He's left home now and has a hamster and a retired greyhound who I have a suspicion is a donkey in disguise.

[p_anda]

Even though I don't see the point in making people get a license, I however don't think hamsters would ever make it into the illegal pet trade...first of all, they are far too easy to breed in large numbers in poor conditions, which sort of 'de-values' them. If the price of a hamster stayed the same after bringing this license in, then it would not be worth going through all the hassle of getting an 'illegal' hamster for let's say £100. Far too much hassle for an animal that will be of low quality of health and background, whereas you can get a 'legal' hamster for £10-20 that will be in neat condition. Also, you'd risk getting caught, getting fined, etc., it just wouldn't be worth it neither for illegal breeders or customers. The 'adult' market for hamsters is SO small anyway. How many people are there over 25 who keep hamsters? I think it's probably less than 0.5% of the population. People who want them for their kids wouldn't risk going to all that trouble just to go to the black market for a 'mere' hamster. And kids who want them wouldn't know where to look apart from the legal means of obtaining them.

Hamsters aren't like rare snakes and lizards, spiders, birds, etc. which are 'flashy' and 'cool' animals to keep. Reptiles will remain as the main demand of the illegal pet trade. A snake that is illegal to have as a pet might make the seller several thousand pounds richer, a hamster will never sell for that much money.

[TheFeldhamster]

Also another thought: whenever suddenly a license is required for something that you could do/own/whatever without a license before there's always that same argument: those people who do it well don't need the license anyway and those who do it badly/don't care now will vanish into the illegal underground, so what's the worth of the license?

The mistake in this argument is that there are not only those two groups of people. Usually, the vast majority of people is just the average, lazy Joe on the street. The majority of people is neither an enthusiast nor a crappy breeder but simply parents who are not all that interested to do a lot of research for such a small, cheap animal and simply want a cheap pet for their kids. They are not mean or criminal on purpose - they are just not all that interested/thoughtful.

And for THOSE, these kinds of laws work amazingly well. Those are exactly the same people who would in former times buy a cheap tortoise without much thought. Now, confronted with all those regulations they learn very quickly that they either must invest more effort and become an enthusiast or invest more effort to go the illegal route. Since most of them are normal, law-abiding people, they either decide to not get a tortoise after all because it is too much bother or follow the regulations. Same with guinea pigs and rabbits. Since we had the laws that it's illegal to keep them solitary and illegal to keep 1 guinny + 1 rabbit the pet shop people are required by law to tell customers that and it really helps a lot.

[kiania]

Originally Posted by TheFeldhamster

...(or at least of all who have anything bigger than a Chihuahua).

Include chihuahuas, those animals are fething nasty little biters - vicious, vicious dogs, and yappy to add headaches to the pain-mix! *shudders*.

Originally Posted by p_anda

How many people are there over 25 who keep hamsters? I think it's probably less than 0.5% of the population.

I'm 27 next Friday, my partner is 31 in May Then again, he is a bit like a 'parent'...he gives into my pet desires (after I show I've done research, and smuggled half the stuff it'd need into the house ). But conversely, he's always the one that voices the opinion that the cage is too small (if I mention it, he grumbles about min cage sizes and how ours are much bigger...if he mentions it, and he always does, he can't object to spending money on a new cage ).

[Amazing Miss Alice]

I didn't really mean to include the DVD thing in the OP as I direct comparison to the situation - more as an example of the government preaching to the converted (it was only meant to be a throw away statement and not to do with the main issue). I love my girlies so much. If the German government made it the law that I had to go on a course and buy a license then I would do it - I would jump through those hoops. It would be worth it! And it might just save some hammies from a terrible fate. You never know!

I am really undecided on the issue, which is why I wanted to hear what you all had to say. @Feldhamster - thank you so much for taking such a long time to explain your point of view. You made really interesting points that I hadn't considered. I have to admit, when I read the article I did wonder if this was a political soundbite. The idea has come from Bernhard Vock - animal rights lobbyist for the right-wing popularist FPÖ party.

I definitely agree that registering your animal with the state vet is a good idea. I think I am slowly coming to the opinion that even though a license and a class wouldn't solve the problem completely, it might help. And that in itself is worth it's weight in gold.

I really wish that rodents in general didn't have this image as "pets for children". Of course I can see why hams, gerbils, piggies, (and bunnies) do make great pets in households with children because they are so loving, but it is really always the adult who cares for the animal. They very idea of "children's pet" in my mind is comparable to "children's toy" unless the parents work really hard to teach their children the value of life - in this respect a course, even a two hour one, might be beneficial to first time owners, as aside from basic care, it may be possible to include a section on the benefits of small animals as pets for parents as teaching aids.

[p_anda]

Originally Posted by kiania

I'm 27 next Friday, my partner is 31 in May Then again, he is a bit like a 'parent'...he gives into my pet desires (after I show I've done research, and smuggled half the stuff it'd need into the house ). But conversely, he's always the one that voices the opinion that the cage is too small (if I mention it, he grumbles about min cage sizes and how ours are much bigger...if he mentions it, and he always does, he can't object to spending money on a new cage ).

The point I was trying to make. Adults who keep hamsters take generally good care of them. By that I mean adults who didn't buy them for their kids. I personally don't know anyone my age or older who keeps a hammy, I know people with rabbits and chinchillas. I think the only thing this license would do is basically stop anyone under the age of 16 getting them. Unless the minor in question had their own income and place to live. Parents wouldn't fork out money and spend time on attending courses in rodent welfare just so they can get a hamster for their 10 year old who'll probably lose interest after 2 days. As hamsters are seen as easy and convenient to get to shut up a child who wants a pet. But I think all of this could be achieved without a license, i.e make it illegal to sell animals in pet shops and make breeders [not customers] instead all get a license to get rid of the 'backyard breeding' schemes. And people who take part in that, fine them several grand or put them in jail for a few months. Most breeders won't sell an animal to just anyone off the street anyway, so people who have no real interest in hamsters would never get one. I think this would be more successful in eliminating unpleasant/uninterested people buying rodents and solve the problem with pet shop animals in one step.

I think this scheme with the license might work well in certain European countries where people are generally very concerned about proper care and welfare of rodents...but I can't imagine something like this being really effective in the UK or in the US [no offence to anyone] as I can already see the government getting someone from the RSPCA to teach the welfare classes and who probably knows fluff all about rodents. [not that I don't appreciate the work the RSPCA does] This country just has an obsession with people having to be 'qualified' for every single job, even if if the person has no practical knowledge. So yeah, an RSPCA officer will be very well equipped to handle dangerous dogs and catching horses but they will have no idea about how to handle or keep rodents, through no fault of their own. Whereas, a reputable breeder or a zoologist, even better a rodentologist, will be much more experienced in this aspect, yet the government won't think they have the right qualifications to do this job, when these people should be the ones running courses. Also there simply isn't enough concern about rodent welfare in a lot of countries as they are seen as 'vermin'. There's only a tiny group of people who have the interest in them to even try and push this law, and it just won't happen.

[kiania]

Give me 5 more years (to work my way through collecting & keeping all the rodents I am desperate for), and then petition the government - I'd be happy to run the courses I may be qualified as a primatologist, but I've got more general qualifications to satisfy the government - and the ability to read and absorb

But yes, I'd be more than happy to go on a course, or fill in a license form. The only thing I'd be concerned about is cost - I can afford my pets and their vet bills, but I currently keep two species, and by the summer, am going to triple my animals and double my species numbers. Comparing me, for example, to a syrian hamster breeder, would be a difficult issue - I am a pet owner with multiple species - do I have to go on a course for each species? Should breeders be made to go on courses that are more complex? Because I don't need to know about breeding, but having 2 or soon 4 species, means I would need to go on multiple courses (and it'd double or quadruple the cost, purely because I don't want to specialise).

But then again, for me, as I said about my hedgehog when I bought her...£1000 for a 3 year course on hedgehog welfare, enrichment and husbandry, BARGIN! I paid £4.7k for 1 year for my masters, £1k for 3 years is far better value The breeder became my 'lecturer', and my 'self study' was done in books, forums and webpages (and some papers on various hog health topics that looked interesting ). My hybrid has perhaps £250 spent on her (two cages, megazorb, ratrations, wheels, toys, treat jars, carrier, etc), which will probably go up to £350-£400 over her lifetime (depending on how long she lives) - assuming she lives 2 years, again, for a course on potentially diabetic animals (and dealing with diabetes in general), she is well worth the cost

Not saying I wouldn't go to each course - but it is something to consider. A breeder of a specific breed needs to know a lot more than an owner, and some owners keep a larger array of species than a breeder. So you need to make things fairly low in cost for multiple-species owners, yet restrictive. And have layers of courses, so I (for example) couldn't breed my hybrid (for example) on the basic ownership course - I know nothing about breeding hybrids (obviously I wouldn't...but assuming it was not a stupid thing to do), so breeding should get a higher level of qualification requirement. To cover genetics, linebreeding, outbreeding, sexing very young animals, hand rearing, selecting healthy animals, and potential problems with breeding. Things that, as an owner, I don't necessarily need to know (or at least, don't need to prove I know), but as a breeder you really really do need to know about!