Silver gray genetics

[Nancy's Hamsters]

Originally Posted by vidasmile

I am sorry for one more question, but if my two little hamsters are Yellow - it will be first time I see Yellow hamster. I could not pick which hamster at the store is Yellow and which is not, thats why I started from buying a Tortoiseshell female

If I understand correctly Yellow Black differs from Yellow according to this:
1. Yellow should have Agouti markings, and Yellow black is a solid color?
2. But Yellow black should have very dark top coat, and my little hamster without silver gene dont have it? Or will he have it in the future, for instance in 4 months?

I put 2 photos of Black Yellows (one of them has extreamly dark top coat) and a link from internet where I found this info:
Gallery of Hamster Colors - Dixie Dust Hamsters

Nancy write a lot about Cream in Tort litters and about Goast Yellow, there Yellow meets Cream. How do you know that they are Yellows and not Creams, or not Goast Creams? (I know that according to the odds 50% of boys in this litter should be Yellows, and I would like that it would be true. But I want to be as much certain as I can. Talking about the odds, I think you all remember the litter in this forum where all the babies were black. This fact really broke all the rules and odds.)

Yellow Black is a very interesting color to see mature
Here is 2 Melanistic Yellow males at 4 weeks Old
The D15 Litter 4 weeks old-zk- All 3 Mel Yellow Males.JPG
Here is one of those three at 3 Months old
Michon 8-22-15-a.jpg

Here is a Mel Yellow Band 3 month old pup taken January 22, 2015
Kiley 1-22-15-c.JPG
And here's the same pup on March 28, 2015
Kiley 3-28-15-a.JPG

and the same pup before he left my hamstery in April 9,2015
Kiley 4-9-15-b.JPG

As you can see in pics of both of these Melanistic Yellows they start out a very light color and darken quite a lot as they gain a mature coat.
IF A Mel Yellow has Cream carried they will look almost like a BEC until around 3-5 months old when their adult coat will show slight ticking on their backs but unlike Cream free Mel Yellows the ticking will be a dark brown instead of the correct color ticking which is Black.
I'm off to Church Prayer service but when I can I'll post pics of my Ee Mel Yellow boy Poohbear and his Mel Yellow son who was Cream free Echo, as well as two Ghost Yellow/ Mel Yellow Hamsters too.

[vidasmile]

Thank you very much for the answer. It is very interesting for me. I will be looking forward for other photos.

[Mama2six]

I have a lot of silver grey. Surprisingly, in my litters, it has not been extremely dominant. I'd say less than the 50% that statistics would give.

I am still putting it all together myself. Ivory is one of my favorite colors, so I LOVE the Sgsgee. I have bred some SgSg, but the type has not been good on them just yet.

Here is one of my recent litters:
final pic of most.jpg

Out of a litter of 9 (not all are in the picture), 7 were silver, 2 were golden. Mama is a LH satin silver black eyed ivory, and Papa is a SH silver dove carrying cream. I was expecting creams and ivories, but that is not what happened. I imagine it is just the luck of the draw that gave me silver greys instead of ivories, but the really interesting thing for you is the variety in their shades of grey.

It really threw me, but I think I've finally figured it out. I still have to test breed to confirm, but I now am treating Mama as a roan, and I believe in the litter above I had 2 SgSg (one of whom is front and center) some SgsgEe's (those are the creamy faced ones). The real question was who was that white girl there. The running theory is that she is a homo silver grey roan. I did not keep her, but I kept her satin brother (same coloring except in satin) because he was a better type. The white and grey is (in my opinion) really beautiful. I have to test more to confirm the roan, before I can consider breeding with that in mind.

Here are a couple more pictures. Note, the satin white-faced silver grey I kept (assumed roan at this point) is not in the pictures, because he in a different bin.

final pic of most 2.jpg
hands.jpg

I think it boiled down to three or 4 distinct colors, both in satin and non-satin versions. (SgSg, SgSg, and SgSg with roan, possibly Sgsg with roan) Pretty funny for an expected litter of mostly ivories!

[Mama2six]

[QUOTE=kylieblue;773905]
SgSg EE (homozygous silver gray, not carrying cream) - would this be what she is?
SgSg Ee = homozygous silver gray, carrying cream but not showing it?
SgSg ee = homozygous silver gray plus cream - would she show the cream? Would this look like Sgsg ee?
Sgsg EE -- no cream present - would she look like SgSg EE (unless some other color was present)?
Sgsg Ee = ?
Sgsg ee - het with cream - this would show the cream, right?
QUOTE]

I can't see your picture of her. (I don't know why, because I went to that thread and it just shows an error.)

But here is hetero silver grey carrying black, cream, AND cinnamon. (known because his mother was cream, and his father was dove.)
Wolfie young.jpg

So it can be rather confusing. The best way to know is to have their ancestry, and without that we're left with making good guesses. If I were you I'd decide what she looked closest to, and go with that. With the silver though, it can be pretty hard.

[WinnieTheHam]

Mama2six, only cream based hamsters will appear roan, so the SG's can't be roan (though mother could be). It is most likely you didn't get any ivory because father most likely didn't carry cream. Both parents have to have a cream gene to produce cream based colour offspring. Unless you've had litters from him in the past and he produced creams. Sometimes litters don't turn out how they're supposed to!

Silver grey can appear really white in colour, so the white one could be silver grey with very poor ticking, cheek flashes and ear colour. She looks to be the only one who doesn't carry cream.

Though i'm not sure if my theory is correct, we'll have to leave it to the pros! haha

[WinnieTheHam]

Vidasmile, Ghost yellows will look almost cream, you can only really tell if they're 'ghost yellow' from 10 weeks of age when their adult coat comes in. You might be able to see very faint agouti traits in their coat, and could appear more orange in colour in places (from what i've seen it's usually the top of the head). Cream is a self colour, it has no markings and is a nice apricot type cream colour throughout with no ticking or cheek flashes.

This picture below is a ghost yellow (on the wheel) and a normal yellow to the right.

[Mama2six]

Originally Posted by WinnieTheHam

Mama2six, only cream based hamsters will appear roan, so the SG's can't be roan (though mother could be). It is most likely you didn't get any ivory because father most likely didn't carry cream. Both parents have to have a cream gene to produce cream based colour offspring. Unless you've had litters from him in the past and he produced creams. Sometimes litters don't turn out how they're supposed to!

Silver grey can appear really white in colour, so the white one could be silver grey with very poor ticking, cheek flashes and ear colour. She looks to be the only one who doesn't carry cream.

Though i'm not sure if my theory is correct, we'll have to leave it to the pros! haha

Well, seeing as the mother is ivory, every baby in the litter carries cream. And yes, Papa carries cream or I would not have said "he carries cream". It has been confirmed in the past.

Roan becomes white-bellied in agouti hams.

Please be extremely careful when giving advice on this gene. It is a dominant gene, and a parent will pass it on to babies, whether they are cream or not. It can exhibit itself as just a few white hairs, and can be VERY hard to find. But it is very important to understand it, because a roan bred to a roan will yield eyeless white babies. So, please be careful about what you say... actually, I'd edit it to remove that comment about only creams being able to carry the roan/white-bellied gene. (It is the same thing, and it will pass on to babies, and it is very important to never breed roan x roan.)

It also makes for some very beautiful hamsters.

[vidasmile]

Thanks Winnie very much!

[Hekomi]

Originally Posted by WinnieTheHam

Vidasmile, Ghost yellows will look almost cream, you can only really tell if they're 'ghost yellow' from 10 weeks of age when their adult coat comes in. You might be able to see very faint agouti traits in their coat, and could appear more orange in colour in places (from what i've seen it's usually the top of the head). Cream is a self colour, it has no markings and is a nice apricot type cream colour throughout with no ticking or cheek flashes.

This picture below is a ghost yellow (on the wheel) and a normal yellow to the right.

Heeeeyyy Almandine and Raggie! Hi girlies Almandine had nicer agouti makrings (especially on her head) when she left ^___^

[WinnieTheHam]

Originally Posted by Mama2six

Well, seeing as the mother is ivory, every baby in the litter carries cream. And yes, Papa carries cream or I would not have said "he carries cream". It has been confirmed in the past.

Roan becomes white-bellied in agouti hams.

Please be extremely careful when giving advice on this gene. It is a dominant gene, and a parent will pass it on to babies, whether they are cream or not. It can exhibit itself as just a few white hairs, and can be VERY hard to find. But it is very important to understand it, because a roan bred to a roan will yield eyeless white babies. So, please be careful about what you say... actually, I'd edit it to remove that comment about only creams being able to carry the roan/white-bellied gene. (It is the same thing, and it will pass on to babies, and it is very important to never breed roan x roan.)

It also makes for some very beautiful hamsters.

The gene is Wh - White bellied or Anophthalmic white. You've completely misunderstood me. Only creams will appear Roan, roan being a pattern, not the terminology for the gene. I know that two copies of the Wh gene will produce eyeless whites, other colours apart from cream will hide the gene. Cream based colours show the roan 'pattern' trait of the gene. This is why two patterned hamsters shouldn't be bred together because they both could have the gene.

I never said only cream hamsters could have the Wh gene, I said ''only cream based hamsters will appear roan'' meaning the pattern, not the gene!