Register FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search
Navigation
Front Page
Forum
Gallery
Wiki

Ads by Google


Go Back   Hamster Central > Hamster Central Forum Topics > Breeding Hamsters

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-09-2015, 11:38 AM   #1
Rarities26
Newborn Pup
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 2
Exclamation Breeding for Calicos and/or Torts.. male color?

Hello all! I am so glad that I have finally found a good forum for hamsters lovers and enthusiasts . I am getting ready to breed but I have some questions that I need some input on first. I have a female long haired blonde (syrian).. I am looking into a new male.. my focus for this "round of breeding" will be calicos/torts (yes I know each is a different coloring). My question is what color of male syrian do I get? A Panda/black and white banded or an all black male? I have been doing some research but want to get a good solid opinion (based off experience would be great!) before making a good investment in a male. Thank you in advance!
Rarities26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2015, 12:26 PM   #2
souffle
Moderator
 
souffle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Yorkshire, UK but my heart lies in Scotland!
Posts: 28,197
Default Re: Breeding for Calicos and/or Torts.. male color?

It sounds as if you need to do a LOT more research before you even consider breeding. To get torts you must have yellow there. Blonde is historically a combination of the light grey and cinnamon genes Lglgpp however the Light grey gene is thought to have disappeared from the gene pool. Perhaps you have in fact an ivory? Neither of these has yellow anyway so they would be no help.
Without a pedigree for your hamster though you have absolutely no idea what she is nor what she carries. If she looks 'creamy' then she likely has cream in the mix and mixing cream and yellow is a very bad idea as it is very hard to separate them as the cream is epistatic and hides the yellow however it pops up and shows as ghost ticking and spoils cream lines.
You need either a tort female and a matching colour male eg black male to a black tort female to get torts or a yellow male carrying that matching colour though yellow males are not easy to find.
I am guessing you are from the USA. Panda is simply a name given by pet stores to sell syrians for more money.
If you want to breed 'calico' which is just tort and white one of the parents needs to be patterned and the other absolutely not as there could be a risk of eyeless whites breeding 2 patterned animals.
I really would urge you not to breed unless you have a pedigree for each parent and are very clear on what you are doing.
Lots more research is needed for sure right from the basics of genetics. When breeding, colour is not the most important factor. Your primary concern should be breeding for health and excellent temperament. Shape (type) is also important. Yellows and yellow combinations are often not the best tempered animals unless carefully selected as they tend to have a feisty streak!
you could start here:
http://www.midlandhamsterclub.co.uk/...ort_white.html

Last edited by souffle; 02-09-2015 at 12:37 PM.
souffle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2015, 02:10 PM   #3
Rarities26
Newborn Pup
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 2
Default Re: Breeding for Calicos and/or Torts.. male color?

So weird.. im not sure what happened to the reply I posted but here it goes again.. I have already done quiet a little bit of research thanks.. my little girl is right in the middle of blonde and cream but is pedigreed as a blonde. I am also well aware that the panda bear is just another name for some pet stores to mark the prices way up.. I would never pick a hamster (or any pet for that matter) based just on color. I also look at confirmation, health including past genetics, temperament, and the overall environment that the little critter comes from. What I am hoping to get is further clarity on the tort and calico breeding. I am also aware that they are both very similar but there is white in the calico and not the torts. I am hoping to get further clarification in regards to the research that I have already done. So I have gathered that in order to get torts you need a yellow or yellow type and a solid black and for calicos the same but a black and white banded.. So would breeding a blonde female to an all black male or black and white banded male not produce torts or calicos or is there a chance?
Rarities26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2015, 03:30 PM   #4
Hekomi
Strong Brew Hamstery
 
Hekomi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,282
Default Re: Breeding for Calicos and/or Torts.. male color?

With blonde, there is absolutely no yellow in the genotype. You need a hamster who is genetically yellow to produce yellows or torts. You cannot have a colour show up out of nowhere. Soufflé already explained why you would not use creams in a yellow line. I am seconding her on more research needed, especially into how genes interact. Try checking out River Roads as well.
__________________



Hekomi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2015, 04:07 PM   #5
souffle
Moderator
 
souffle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Yorkshire, UK but my heart lies in Scotland!
Posts: 28,197
Default Re: Breeding for Calicos and/or Torts.. male color?

Sorry rarities but you don't seem to understand the basics of genetics and recessive and dominant traits as well as sex linkage. Genetics means that when you put two hammies together you don't just get a wee bit of what each has colour wise. They get one gene from each parent and it all depends how they interact to produce a colour and coat type.
If you truly have a pedigree pure blonde and you get a pure black mail or even a black banded male you will get light greys and goldens some banded. I very much doubt you have a blonde though it is possible to get silver blondes using silver grey instead of light grey. Silver grey is very dominant so a silver blonde would produce silver greys and goldens with a black. There is no yellow anywhere in these matings so no chance of any torts I am afraid.
If your female has no yellow then the only way to get torts is to find a yellow male. Some torts are more striking than others eg black and chocolate and the torts and white are more striking still. Golden torts tend to have a less contrasty pattern. You can also get Dove torts, cinnamon torts and dark grey torts. The yellow on each is different.
souffle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2015, 06:37 PM   #6
Lilbet
Newborn Pup
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 43
Default Re: Breeding for Calicos and/or Torts.. male color?

I was told that to get a calico you need one yellow parent and one non-yellow solid color; that and never to cross cream and yellow for the reasons said above. So, basically, you can't get good tort colors out your hamster is what I'm assuming. I thought about breeding my dove colored female for a little while, but she refused to cooperate and after looking into the "breeder's" (the owner of the male and someone local that breeds hamsters) other hamsters and lines decided against it. I noticed a lot of her lines had extremely narrow, pointy faces, almost rat-like. Perhaps you could focus on improving her color and form in her offspring, so focus more on creams and blondes? I'm a newbie though, so those are all my opinions based on the little I know.
Lilbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2015, 06:45 PM   #7
DrKMcK
Retired Moderator
 
DrKMcK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Brooklyn, New York USA
Posts: 10,295
Default Re: Breeding for Calicos and/or Torts.. male color?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rarities26 View Post
Hello all! I am so glad that I have finally found a good forum for hamsters lovers and enthusiasts . I am getting ready to breed but I have some questions that I need some input on first. I have a female long haired blonde (syrian).. I am looking into a new male.. my focus for this "round of breeding" will be calicos/torts (yes I know each is a different coloring). My question is what color of male syrian do I get? A Panda/black and white banded or an all black male? I have been doing some research but want to get a good solid opinion (based off experience would be great!) before making a good investment in a male. Thank you in advance!
Hello there Rarities26. Both Souffle and Hekomi are folks I would turn to for this kind of information. They are both experienced in breeding. You asked for experienced advice on breeding and these people have given you answers which I firmly believe you need to consider. It's the hamsters they are concerned about. You asked for their experienced input. They gave it it to you.
__________________
DrKMcK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2015, 09:01 PM   #8
Nancy's Hamsters
ST's Hamstery
 
Nancy's Hamsters's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Mid Ohio USA
Posts: 2,574
Default Re: Breeding for Calicos and/or Torts.. male color?

Do you have a photo of your Blonde female? Where did you get her from? I have been breeding Yellows for years and to find a nice quality, HEALTHY Yellow is next to impossible especially if your using back yard bred or Pet store bought hamsters. All have stated exactly how to get Tortoiseshell and Tortoiseshell and White hamsters.

Yellow gene is not a gene for a beginner Hobby breeder. It takes much more work to be a successful breeder of yellow gene hamsters. Yellows have attitude, and are much harder to socialize. To get hand tame Yellows involves hours of hard work when a litter is old enough to handle. If Yellow gene pups are let go without handling even one day they tend to go back to start with taming. If a buyer doesn't continue handling them they will become very vocal and much more apt to bite. Yellow gene Females are much harder to breed cause they are more solitary then other colors and unless you mate them precisely on the mating day and time they are most likely to attack your male.

Through almost 17 years of breeding Yellow gene hamsters as well as other colors the Yellow females were much more apt to cull whole litters then any other colors. If your serious about breeding Yellow gene hamsters you should want to always learn more about the genes involved in breeding them successfully. No serious breeder ever thinks they have had enough learning as there is always more which can be learned. Genetics is not as easy as X + Y = a winning Hamster. It's easy to produce the color you seek IF you know what the gene looks like in it's base coloring, and what that color looks like when combined with other coloring. Like what does a Yellow hamster look like if it also has two recessive genes for Black? Does the Yellow and Black Hamster look the same in a male as it does a female? What happens when Yellow is combined with Cinnamon? Why is it frowned upon to cross Yellow with Cream? If you know this answer then you would not wish to even think about using your Blonde Female in any Yellow breeding program.

If you know beyond a doubt that your female is Blonde then why oh why would you not want to breed show quality blondes a color that is just as lovely as any Tort(IMHO) and is far far more uncommon then the Torts. Also to be a real respected breeder you need to call the hamsters by their proper names as the color Calico does not even exist in the National Hamster Council and is just as much a gimmick names as Panda, Black, and Dalmatian Bear Hamsters. The proper and correct name for a Three distinct colored Hamster is Tortoiseshell and White. Surely you don't want to be known as a producer of gimmicked color named Hamsters right?

To successfully breed Yellow colored hamsters you would need to start with two breeder raised Hamsters and Never ever breed your blonde into that line. One of these breeder raised Hamsters would need to be Yellow or a Yellow combination color and it's mate would need to be what ever color Tort you plan to breed. Since you mentioned Black before, One would have to be Yellow carrying black(why it is of utt most importance to have a yellow with a pedigree of at least three generations of parentage) or a yellow and black combination color. The mate would need to be Black with absolutely no cream genes in it( again why it is of utt most importance to have a pedigree of at least three generations of parentage). One of the two would need to be one of two patterns, either Banded, or Dominant Spot(Banded is much more stunning for a Tort and white).

It is very dangerous to breed two patterned Hamsters together as the White Belly gene can be there but will be invisible until you get an all white hamster who has no eyes and is deaf and unhealthy. We Hobby breeders as well as show breeders are more then happy to help you understand the Yellow genes but the first thing needed is for you to be able to accept positive criticism. Be willing to learn and change, to better the quality of our hamsters(it cost just as much to raise a litter of inferior quality Torts as it is to raise a high quality very to the NHC standard Tort Hamster). Be willing to admit we don't know it all, and that others who have been breeding the color seeked may know more then you at this time. There is nothing shameful in not knowing, what is shameful is not knowing, and not wanting to learn(or to accept answers) which would help you to improve in knowledge about Torts, and Tort and White genes.

I'm sure in no time at all you can be breeding happy healthy Torts and Tortoiseshell and white hamsters that you would be very pleased to offer to others.
__________________
Nancy,and The ST's Hamsters
Nancy's Hamsters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2015, 12:47 PM   #9
souffle
Moderator
 
souffle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Yorkshire, UK but my heart lies in Scotland!
Posts: 28,197
Default Re: Breeding for Calicos and/or Torts.. male color?

To help you my friend has allowed me to use one of his pictures to show you a Yellow with real star quality. Tristar Bear is a short haired yellow male. You can see he has a beautiful head with a broad skull and also the colour and ticking are very nice.
souffle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2015, 01:46 PM   #10
Nancy's Hamsters
ST's Hamstery
 
Nancy's Hamsters's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Mid Ohio USA
Posts: 2,574
Default Re: Breeding for Calicos and/or Torts.. male color?

Compare this beautiful example(TY Souffle and Tristar for the photo) of a Yellow male with a Yellow SH Male who has the cream gene carried in his gene pool
This is Shiloh a SH Yellow male who came from a wonderful hobby breeder who had the right idea on breeding for size, and tame sweet temperament but didn't understand why it was not wise to use Cream colored Hamsters in their Yellow lines.



Shiloh has now gone to Erin's Hamsters who also enjoys older Hamsters. She has the knowledge to use Shiloh and breed the cream out if she cares to, but she is not wanting to become a big time breeder so most likely Shiloh will just enjoy a life of fun and spoiling till he passes on to the bridge.

After almost a year of seeking another Yellow male I found a girl who had to give up her breeders because of a move into a no pets allowed apartment. My new boy is only 5 months old and she says he is Cream free, but he lacks the ticking that a Yellow should have so I have my doubts on him being cream free at this time. He was just bred to a Dove Tort Band who I know is Cream clear so we will see if I get any Torts with Cream Yellow patches which will confirm if Feivel is Cream free or cream carrier. He is only 195g at 5 months LOL
__________________
Nancy,and The ST's Hamsters

Last edited by Nancy's Hamsters; 02-10-2015 at 08:44 PM.
Nancy's Hamsters is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.43 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright © 2003-2022, Hobby Solutions
All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:41 AM.