Pairs: One With A Litter, One Without. Opinions?

[Erin Loves Dwarf Hamsters]

Sorry for the title being a bit odd it was hard to word it and explain what I mean at the same time.

I was wondering what breeders experiences (or opinions) are on keeping same sex pairs of dwarfs (specifically robos) whilst one of them has a litter?

I know that breeders do sometimes breed two females at once and keep them and their litters together during nursing which can result in litters being mixed up etc so since this is possible and (its seems) safe would it be along similar lines if just the one female had a litter?

In my head it seems as though it would be and I am sure that some breeders do it (plus this is how colonies of dwarfs would work in the wild anyway).

You see as Kiku now lives alone and I have a feeling that she isn't going to do too well like this I was thinking of introducing my breeding female to her, and having them build a bond over several weeks before breeding.

This does pose the problem of mating just the breeding female to the male as I would either have to breed them in a separate cage and return the female after each mating session or put up a mesh divider between the pair and Kiku while the male is in with her (basically until she is almost ready to give birth) so that they are still 'together' but the male can't mate with Kiku. And I suppose a third option is too keep the divider up while the pups are young and taking it out when the pups are 2/3 weeks old. Would this work/be safer?

Also;
Would the presence of another female stress the mother out?
Can the second female be a danger to the litter if they are left unattended by mum? Or like a male would the second female actually help the mum out?
If there is any risk to the litter/mother at all I won't attempt it, it would just be nice to know of my options

Anyway this is all speculation and may not be something I ever do, it would only be if it does turn out to be doable and in the event of Kiku not getting along well alone.

Thanks!

[souffle]

This sounds quite a specialist subject Erin.
It may be an idea to PM Tammy and ask her to take a look and give her thoughts as I know she is quite busy at the moment and may not notice it but I'm sure she will respond if you let her know just in case
Sometimes mums and older daughters do help raise a litter so I imagine it would be possible with a bonded pair but I really am not sure. I guess it would all depend how close they were. It may be a bit stressful having a pair and a single with only a divider. I would imagine there is always a risk with two as you don't know how the mother will newborns will respond once they arrive.
Maybe you could wait and introduce one of the young female pups as a cagemate for Kiku?

[Erin Loves Dwarf Hamsters]

Thanks Souffle, I did think about sending a PM to Tammy but as you have said she is very busy at the moment so I wondered if anyone here would have any knowledge, I will probably PM her later and ask though
I also thought about introducing one of the pups to Kiku so I might do that instead as with this being my first litter it is probably best I keep things nice and simple. I will think it over some more though as I have a good two months to consider it

[Pompompoms]

I haven't done it, but I don't think I would have done it with my first few litters. I believe although obviously Tammy is the one to ask, that sometimes the mum will be aggressive with the other female not wanting her around the pups, potentially leading to fighting not what mum, pups or cage mate needs. Also that the cage mate can try and take some or all of the pups as her own, turn against the pups, turn against mum ect. I think it can work as all these things with mixing hamsters can, but obviously it is more risky.

[jemmalg]

Personally I wouldn't risk it.

I don't have experience with Robos, but I have kept a pair of female Winter Whites together [mother-daughter pair], they were happy living together for maybe six or seven months, however when I bred the mother again, she get very stressed out by her daughter being around by her second week of pregnancy, they ended up fighting and I had to separate and they've never gone back.

I agree with previous posters that if you're worried about one hamster being lonely, introduce a baby from the new litter.

Of course things could be different with Robos but I still think it's a bit of a risk.

Hope this helps

[KimOrbit]

Hi

As you know today I am near an experience breeder. I am guest in His home now. I was just checking HC and saw your question. I asked your question from Nima (the breeder) and It was His reply for you: (sorry If I had made a mistake in translation)

Pairing two dwarf hamster on same sex or even in opposite sex is not a problem at all. They wont make any problem for you if the cage's space is enough for both of them. but If there is lack of space one will fight to find a good territory. A good space for a dwarf is 50cm X 30cm.
But if one of the hamsters is pregnant or have litter and there is another female in the cage There is 30% chance of fight. because Females eat babies to earn the lost hormones and nutrients. It can be done by a normal female which has no litter. But the chance is low in Dwarfs. If other female tries to harm the babies (cause it doesn't have her own scent) mother will stand to defend them. In this case one of them will be killed or injured.
I have done this work 5 times, and only fight occurred 1 time. The great thing was that in 1 time I saw another female taking care of litters and bringing them back to nest too.

Then at all I dont suggest your friend to do this If He/She is not a breeder and done this to have more hamsters. but If your friend is a breeder, then she can do this cause the chance is low.
Asking Me I say "Dont do it at all" Cause I dont do this anymore now unless they were using same cage before mating.

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Well, I have tried not to change even words. I wish It had helped you alot. Nima has 6 years of experience breeding hamsters.

[Pompompoms]

Originally Posted by KimOrbit

Hi

Pairing two dwarf hamster on same sex or even in opposite sex is not a problem at all. They wont make any problem for you if the cage's space is enough for both of them. but If there is lack of space one will fight to find a good territory. A good space for a dwarf is 50cm X 30cm.

Ah this would be wonderful if it were true, but sadly this isn't the case at all in reality.

A male and a female are likely to get along to begin with yes, but the female will often turn on the male in the latter stages of pregnancy. As for same sex pairs, a quick look in the dwarf section of this forum will tell you there are many many people here with far bigger cages, everything possible done to keep them together, and it doesn't work out.
Chatting to people at shows, chatting to other breeders, they'll all tell you the same thing. I myself have in all had about 50% success rate overall with pairs, meaning many single robos too. The amount of single hams here, in the adoption centers, rescue centers, advertised online ect validates the point even further.

I have cared for and raised over 30 dwarf hams over four years now so have built up a good first hand knowledge of their behavior, I wouldn't want anyone here who has followed every recommendation to read the above quote and feel they have failed somehow by not keeping their hams together.

[kyrilliondaemon]

Kim... I mean this in the best of possible ways but that breeder is clearly not an expert. Most people who keep pairs have had fallouts and nothing can stop that. Pompompoms, me and many others have kept pairs with more space than you said and it doesn't stop the hamsters fighting if they have a reason to fight. Sometimes two hamsters just can't live together, and sometimes they become stroppy teenagers who have to live alone for a bit. Sometimes its something else altogether that becomes the problem.
Please stop giving advice as I'm afraid its usually incorrect. This is the best place to learn and until you've learnt more its probably best you stop trying to give advice. I don't mean to be nasty and hope I haven't upset you saying that, but Pompompoms is right and the breeder is wrong.

Erin - You know I'm no expert but since I'm posting anyway... I'd probably not risk it. I've seen Tammy say something about either this or having two pregnant females together and whichever it was it may not work out. The risks seem to be more that they can cause each other stress and have the females trying to steal the babies from each other, but its definetly possible it won't work out.
As ever, entirely up to you what you do though and I know you'll make the right call

[KimOrbit]

thank you for advise and alarming me about the mistake, both Pompompoms and kyrilliondaemon.
It was a mistake done in translation. :P cause "at all" means "most of the time" in Persian and it means It can have lots of exceptions. I had made a mistake in translation.
Just to make that right, it should be changed like this:
Keeping two dwarf hamsters on same sex wont make any problem at 50% of times.

As Nima explained it to me, We should put hamsters near each other when they are below 4 months of age if we want to keep them in one cage for ever. We are not allowed to breed a hamster unless she is more than 4 months old. If there were no encounter between those two hamsters during this time, there is 90% chance of success to keep them together. but we should Also look for their behavior even after that time and separate them right after first encounter.
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It was exactly what Nima told to me. But please tell me if it is wrong too. then I will change it in my researches notebook.

Thank you for informing me about my translation mistake.

[kyrilliondaemon]

You cannot give these things percentages. If anything its more than 50% of the time they fall out - even if they have been together from birth.
Please, stop saying things you've read or heard elsewhere because most of them are wrong and its not just a problem with translation.