thinking of breeding oscar

Bunsey · 01-28-2008, 06:34 AM

i've changed my mind about not breeding oscar, and now i think it would be nice. AOC is a good class to enter as you don't have to get very high points to get placed (oscar won with 72.5), unlike cream or golden or something. When i entered Harvey in creams he got 75 points - enough to win another class, but LAST place in creams

I need to learn more about genetics as i need to know exactly what is likely to pop out and what female to choose.

I want to get some sables and some creams (just cos i love creams and so do a lot of people, so they'll sell). i guess i'd get the odd mink, too. I don't understand how the mink works, actually.

Also, what about roan, can that skip a generation or does a parent HAVE to be roan for the kids to get it? oscar has a roan parent, so does he carry the gene for it?

also, would he have to be mated with a large female, because he is large? i'm worried about a smaller female carry the genes for such large babies, incase she has trouble with the birth... or are all babies the same size and then they just grow bigger later or quicker or something?

i always feel silly asking these sorts of questions, but everyone has to learn somewhere!

souffle · 01-28-2008, 06:53 AM

Can you remind us what colour Oscar is (sable LH I think) and also what his parents & gradparents were if you know. It depends if Oscar has two umbrous genes UU or one Uu as to whether he would produce only umbrous babies or some umbrous and some self colours. If you mated him to a pure cream female you would get some sables and some creams if he is Uu. You may get minks if there are any REC in the picture.

I do not think you would need a large female especially but if you were getting a female to breed and show anyway then she is likely to be fairly large. Pups are much the same size when born I think and grow on later!

Holly · 01-28-2008, 07:09 AM

Oscar is (if I remember correctly) a LH Sable and, as Toby's brother, he has one REC parent and one sable roan parent - which means he's Uuee (I think - or heterozygous for the dominant umbrous gene) meaning you could get cream if you mate him with BEC (you would also get mink if you mate him with a REC). If he was UU all the babies would be sable as souffle says..

As for mink - you should get some minks if you mate him with a REC - if he was homozygous for umbrous they'd be all minks (like one of Teresa's litters).

Roan isn't carried and doesn't skip a generation - if they carry roan they display it - either by being roans (if a self colour) or being whitebellied (if an umbrous colour).

HTH - just to say what you say about AOC isn't necesarily truw - Minnie got 74 points and was unplaced in SH AOC!!!!

Bunsey · 01-28-2008, 07:13 AM

here's his family tree - same as Toby's

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/ ... tree-1.jpg

You know so much about genetics Holly, i don't know hardly anything!

souffle · 01-28-2008, 07:14 AM

Holly is right about the points thing. It depends on the hamsters, the entry on the day and the judge. Colours go through phases. For a while there are loads of creams then only a few, then loads of patterns etc etc. Different judges like different colours and vary in their opinion of what it should look like. That is why you can go from Reserve BIS to second bottom in a few months.!

Holly · 01-28-2008, 07:44 AM

Oscar's Cream dad means that your chances of getting Creams as well as Sables is fairly high - there may be other recessive colours that might pop up - like REC. If he had two Umbrous parents they'd all be sable - as Umbrous is dominant.

Because Toby is a mink, despite having the same parents as Oscar, we could (in theory) get REC's, Minks and even Cinnamons in our litter. This is becasue Mink comes from the REC (or Cinnamon) gene and there is a chance that Smartie carries REC/Cinnamon - as her granny was Bailey (a Cinnamon).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunsey

You know so much about genetics Holly, i don't know hardly anything!

I actually know very little about genetics - compared to someone like souffle

What I have done is tried to read as much as I can about the colours I'm hoping to produce: BEC's, REC's, Sables, Minks, Cinnamons and Sable/Mink/Cream Roans.

souffle · 01-28-2008, 08:43 AM

A cinnamon female carrying cream would give you a nice colour mix in theory but genetics dont always work that way and you may get all goldens if the wind blows in the wrong direction

(Not that goldens are not gorgeous but they would be colour paled from this mating) To guarantee creams and sables you should get a BEC female but a cinnamon carrying cream might give you REC, BEC, Sable, Mink, Cinnamons , goldens and umbrous goldens. (Have I got them all

) If you choose a female carrying LH you should get half LH and half SH carrying LH, then you could add satin, rex or a pattern and have the ultimate hamster! Have a word with Oscars breeder and see hwat she thinks

Sheryl knows lots more than me Holly!

Bunsey · 01-28-2008, 11:01 AM

wow that's complicated, but i think i understand. is it possible to have a BEC carrying cinnamon, or would cinnamon always show itself. I think my best bet is to go with the BEC LH and get BEC LH, BEC SH carrying LH, sable LH and sable SH carrying LH.

I'll definately have a word with Sue if we decide to go ahead with this. We can't do it at the moment, as we are full up with all our 2yr old robos. It's best to start learning the theory in plenty of time though... then of course there's sourcing the female. I don't know where i'd go for that. i love bourne valley hams, but the female can't be related to Oscar. Who breeds good black-eyed creams? i like the deep apricot ones. Harvey's line is excellent, but unfortunately overlaps Oscars. Oscar's father's side is also Harvey's.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/ ... tree-1.jpg

Bunsey · 01-28-2008, 11:07 AM

p.s. where did you read about the genetics holly? was it just online or can you recommend books? simple explanations are good

Holly · 01-28-2008, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunsey

p.s. where did you read about the genetics holly? was it just online or can you recommend books? simple explanations are good

Well hamsterlopaedia does a good basic intro to genetics as you probably know - I also like these:

http://hometown.aol.com/theriverrd/genetics.htm

http://www.petwebsite.com/hamsters/syri ... olours.htm

However the main reference I used is the BHA Standards which, sadly, no longer seem to be on-line. However these are what Pete Logsdail plans to publish as leaflets for club members - brought up date for NHC standards of course! They are great as each colour is pictured, the standard described and then the various ways to breed this colour are stated.