Breeding Full Brother to Sister?

[S.C.F.C]

Thanks Janice!! I did alot of thinking last night and the ones im getting inreguarding this post, i think im just going to keep them as pets more than likely and just wait until the breeders around me have the colors im looking for!

[souffle]

I think that is very wise SCFC. With lots to learn, upholding good breeding ethics and all the time in the world maybe one day YOU will be a respected breeder in the USA too which would be fabulous for the future of hamsters there.
I look forward to meeting them although I agree with Janice - I would be very wary of this breeder who would encourage you to buy these animals to breed. Be sure to check them out carefully for any health and temperament issues.
I wish you the best of luck and keep asking on the forum for advice from experienced breeders.

[S.C.F.C]

thanks! someone on this post said there is a post up here about breeding tortiseshell? where is that? i looked but cant find it. Is there a REALLY good article up here about how i can learn more about the genetics?

[souffle]

It is my last post - there is a link underlined tortoiseshell. If you look through the forums - search syrian genetics there are several threads and there is a very basic article on the WIKI too.

[S.C.F.C]

Thanks, i spent alomost the last 2hours searching through the forum and still didn't find it. If anyone know where it is could you please post the link. thanks

[radiocricket]

Here is the link that was given previously:

Tortoiseshell

Here is a link explaining sex-linked genes and x-inactivation:
The River Road Hamstery's Syrian Genetics

Here is a link that talks a little about breeding Torts and Tris:
The River Road Hamstery's Syrian Hamster Genetics: Principals of Breeding

Lastly are some forum discussions on breeding Torts and Tris (you may have to join to read, I'm not sure):
Hamsters in Focus Tort Topics

The River Road Hamstery's site is a wonderful place to start when learning hamster genetics. While it uses Syrians for all examples, the principals apply to all other animals (though with birds, males are XX and females are XY). Once you understand that, it's easy to learn the genetics of other species- Campbells, rabbits, rats, etc... Don't just limit yourself to learning about Tortoiseshells, you need to be knowledgable or at the very least aware of all the Syrian genes, even if you're not working with them, so that when something unexpected pops up in a litter you can identify it (and not hit the forums exclaiming you have a new mutation!). Especially when working with unknown hamsters. Just because you don't get any of a particular gene for a few generations doesn't mean it isn't there. With unknown hamsters, there are genes you just won't know unless you specifically test breed for them. In my genotypes, all of my hamsters have the genotype "Hr-" for hairless. Unfortunately there are still hairless hamsters being bred out there and many have furred offspring. They're in the commercial breeders/pet market and imagine how many generations it's being carried around. Since I don't have hairless and don't believe in breeding them, I'll never be able to test breed my hamsters for the gene. I would be surprised if it ever showed up but since I can't test breed for it, I can never say my hamsters are "HrHr". You'll need to take this approach with all the genes unless you're getting a trusted pedigree with each hamster.

-Janice

[lisab]

Originally Posted by radiocricket

I have to jump into this mix and add that I'd run the other way from the "breeder" that you found. The recommendation to breed brother-sister together is a very big red flag. Then there's the fact that she can't identify whether the Cinnamon sire is Umbrous or not. Thirdly is the mating that she did- a Black Tri to a Cinnamon (possibly Umbrous). That just seems to be a random breeding to me and not one with a specific goal, or even worse yet, a complete lack of understanding of genetics.

I dont see why that is not a good mating? black and cinnie make dove as long as both parents carry it of course or she/he could be adding the genes for the next gen (that is ofcourse if the breeder knows what he/she is doing . I am not defending the breeder but I dont think that is a random mating.
I do agree about the umbrous thing though. It is very clear when a cinnie is or is not umbrous.

[S.C.F.C]

how could i post a pic? i got feed back about the father from other very good breeders and they are saying a cinnamon umbrous or mink! they can't tell because of the way the breeder took the pic.

[LocoRocoPanda]

You could add it as an attachment to your post. Click Go Advanced and in the message toolbar there should be a paperclip icon. Click that and add the pic from your saved files, presuming you saved the file onto your computer.

[radiocricket]

It just "feels" like a random breeding to me. Here's the male and female I have and we'll just put them together. Neither carried common genes. I can understand if it were a test breeding to identify genes in either parent, and that is a valid reason for that pairing, but if that was the case, those offspring wouldn't be recommended for someone to use as their foundation animals. In addition to that, if you're breeding for Tortoiseshells, one gene you don't want present is Umbrous. Of course, I don't know this breeder nor what other options they had as fair as breeding animals, but when combined with everything else, it seems more likely that it wasn't a very thought out breeding. It seems unlikely they had other males/females to use, especially since they've recommended breeding siblings. I would expect Torts to be in the litter but I don't think the breeder can even identify those. It's also possible that they have Yellow Umbrous males and are identifying them as Goldens. Again, so many things that make me think this wasn't a thought out breeding.

Really, there could be more aspects to this that would make this breeding valid- improving conformation, coat, temperament, etc... but is that the impression this breeder has given here?

-Janice