Mandarin NOT a hybrid gene?

[genevieve]

I've been looking at a lot of Dutch and German hamster sites, as they seem to generally be more informed than we are in the UK/US/Canada etc. And I came across an article about how apparently Mandarin is a pure Winter White gene originally found in the Netherlands, NOT a gene arising from Campbells x Winter White hybridisation. I tried to translate the article as best I can (though anyone Dutch who can make a better attempt, please feel free!), see below.

What are your thoughts on this? I'm trying to find more info now, but does anyone have any more evidence for/against? While here we naturally assume they're hybrids, there seems to be a big debate in Europe about whether they are or not. There's also a belief in some European countries that certain colours we believe to be pure (such as the Lilac Fawn Campbells) are in fact hybrids, so... not sure what to make of it!

My own opinion is that it is a possibility. They do, after all, display WW features such as the head shape, ear shape (in this picture, particularly), and the ability to combine with the Pearl gene. But, of course, I'm no expert.

Source.

Mandarin

Sometime between 2000 and 2002, a new mutation occurred in the Russian Winter White dwarf hamster. This colour was Mandarin – a yellow-orange colour with black eyes. It discolours as it ages.

When they are three weeks old, they are all yellow. In most instances, the hamster begins to get brown ticking at 5 to 6 weeks. The dorsal stripe also discolours, eventually becoming brown. As they go older, the ticking gets lighter and the dorsal stripe fades gradually. The colour tends to come in several different shades, rather than one solid/general colour.

Genetic code: MaMa

Mandarin is a dominant gene. It appears that when two mandarins are bred together, the litter size is lower than average, implying that the gene is lethal in-utero and that no hamster will ever have two copies of the gene. It seems that there are no health problems with hamsters bred from two Mandarins.

Colour Variation:

This is a Mandarin with a lot of ticking.


This is a Mandarin which maintained a more even colouring.


Information:

The name Mandarin was coined in Singapore. Around 2002, the first photographs of Mandarin hamsters appeared on the internet, from Singapore. As Singapore is known for breeding hybrids, most breeders assumed this was a hybrid colour. However, the Mandarin colour was originally bred from pure Winter Whites in the Netherlands, a trading nation which exports lots of animals. When the Mandarin colour was discovered, it was agreed that it would be exported to other markets, including Singapore and Japan.

It soon appeared that Mandarin is a dominant gene, and the Mandarin hamsters did not appear to be carrying other colours and had a good build. There is no dominant yellow in Campbells hamsters, all yellow Campbells genes are recessive in nature. Thus, you can draw the conclusion that Mandarin is a pure mutation of Winter White hamsters.

Mandarins typically have very nice size and build. The original Mandarins did not look as good. After about two years, more and more cases of diabetes have appeared in Mandarins, even though there was no diabetes in original lines. This could be due to breeders selections when breeding, or the influence of a different gene.





See more images here

[KatiePillow]

I remember a french user on here saying that the mandarin gene wasn't a hybrid colour, but her reasoning was that yes, there was a breeding of a campbells and a winter white, but then they 'outcrossed it' by not breeding a campbell into the line again.
So it could be that the German/Dutch community agree with this.

[genevieve]

Originally Posted by KatiePillow

I remember a french user on here saying that the mandarin gene wasn't a hybrid colour, but her reasoning was that yes, there was a breeding of a campbells and a winter white, but then they 'outcrossed it' by not breeding a campbell into the line again.
So it could be that the German/Dutch community agree with this.

Looking at a Dutch forum, I did see quite a few people disagree with the 'outcrossing' theory but still defending the 'pure' status of the Mandarin colouring. So I don't think it's a widespread idea there. Though that's not to say that the gene wasn't 'outcrossed' by someone who did agree with that theory and then marketed as pure.

But every Dutch website I'm seeing is saying that Mandarin is pure, and many are saying that a lot of our supposedly pure colours (seems to mostly be opal-based colours, some are saying opal was hybridised) are hybrids...

[Hamtastic]

That's an interesting topic, and I'd love to hear what expert breeders have to offer on it. Like Katie, I've also read that it was originally created through hybridizing. I would imagine that it's reproducible through hybridization or through looking for pure mutations without just taking someone's word for it. There are sites that describe how to breed a mandarin hamster by crossing species, so from that I'm leaning toward it not being a mutation of a pure winter white.

[genevieve]

Yes, I've heard (though haven't seen anything saying/proving this) that crossing argente in to Winter White lines is what causes Mandarin. But would that explain why Mandarin is a dominant gene? I'm not an expert on genetics, so not sure if it can work like that

[fluffymunchkins]

Different countries have different ideas on what is pure and what is not.
Here in the UK the NHC believes that ANY campbells in a winterwhite line, no matter how far back, makes that line hybrid. Even if its not even noticeable.

I've heard of mandarin being called a pure winterwhite colouration, but I have to disagree (or at least I haven't seen proof myself to say otherwise). I can't argue about the genetics as I can't say I'm all that clear about it.

[souffle]

Fluffymunchins is right as in many countries they consider a line pure again after 3 generations or pure breeding. This is simply not possible because once you get the mixed genes no amount of pure breeding can remove them from the genome of an animal.
I think the mandarins were proven at one point to have been crossed to campbells in their past giving the coloration

[Gizmodo ^_^]

Is there health problems associated with the Mandarin colour or not?
They are gorgeous!

[emilyweb]

the second piccy looks a fair bit like my Tessa :S hmm

[souffle]

Gizmado I think they can have the same issues as other hybrid colours and there can be diabetes, glaucoma and breeding difficulties but I don't really know for sure.