High Yellow Winter Whites - Page 2

SnickersTheFirst · 10-05-2011, 11:43 PM

Pure Winter White means they come originally from the wild right and there's no hybridization? If so then I have a Pearl WW as he's from a registered breeder.

Ankali · 10-05-2011, 11:55 PM

I think what she's trying to point out is that mutations take so many years to pop up and with four generations a year with even 10 years of breeding, that's a 40 generation pedigree. 20 years.. 80 generations and so on. I have never heard of pedigrees so large as would be required to trace a mutation gene back to the wild, but would love to see one.

This is just my honest opinion, not directed at anyone, just the hamster fancy in general.
I am not condoning purposeful breeding of the two species together, but can anyone really be trusted? Unless I caught the hamsters straight from the wild myself, I don't know that I would trust that a breeder oversees that I have never met is sending me a pup that is truly pure. Lines change hands so many times, with so many hamsters how can you be 100% sure there wasn't even one instance of hybridization?

STLHamsters · 10-06-2011, 12:12 AM

Yes, I cannot prove my lines are "Pure" but how can any of you say that yours are pure, as Ankali said, they change hands so many times and if it's a matter of shipping them over seas I wholeheartedly refuse to send an animal in a dark box for over 12 hours, now THAT'S cruel. Not only that but scams happen and I do not think I could trust anyone I could not physically talk to, I do NOT want to be given poor stock mean or otherwise just because I am a breeder in the U.S.. As stated in my other thread I have what I have to work with, and as long as they are healthy I am happy. NONE of my stock has been showing signs of Diabetes nor have any of the pups we've sold. That's good enough for me.

I am a bit offended to see that you just assume that my stock is ALL pet store animals. I am actually more offended by this than anything said in my other thread about the hairless. These were all purchased from a very good breeder who I will not share here at this time. Just because a lot of people here don't have the money or the time to have animals shipped (I know I don't) doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I like the way these animals look, and as long as they stay healthy and active we will breed for this if it keeps showing up. Thanks for your opinions on my entire stock, even though I was really only going for opinions on the pictures of the animals I posted.

**Hamtastic** · 10-06-2011, 01:44 AM

I believe what has been said is that in most cases, one will be dealing with hybrids in the U.S. An enthusiastic breeder could transport pedigree pairs from reputable breeders with sufficient evidence of purity. Even then one would have to take it on faith somewhat, but at least the chances would be reasonably high that the stock is pure. What people have said about yours is that it seems to differ from the standard winter white that's expected in multiple ways, which indicate hybridization somewhere down the line. You could use this information to check its correctness by comparing with other purebred winter whites and hybrids.

Why get offended if you choose to post about an unusual litter that in itself raises flags. You will normally get opinions on the origin of the deviation, which is what I see here.

emilyweb · 10-06-2011, 01:50 AM

STL I'm sure no one meant to offend you we all try to share our feelings and often they are rather conflicting

I'm no good at genetics and all that jazz, so I can't give my views on that but I hope that the lovely wee babies your going to get ,go to good homes.
But unfortunatly I think there is hybridness in there somewhere.

lisab · 10-06-2011, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnickersTheFirst

If so then I have a Pearl WW as he's from a registered breeder.

Theres no such thing as a registered breeder

People in the uk who do have either ww or campbells breed them pure, I am just talking about show people as they have to for the shows hybrids are frowned on and if a ww has a bit of campbell or visa versa they cant and wont be shown. Out of the fancy people can breed what ever they want and what ever it looks like the most they will say thats what it is.

Not everyone will see a hamster and know/or think that it is a hybrid.

No matter how many generations back if a ww has been bred with a campbell its a hybrid. It shouldnt be done but if you have no other choice. we are lucky here in the uk that we have pure lines.

There is no need to take offence to people giving an opinion. it may not be what you want to here, but thats life sometimes. No one has ment to offend you

STLHamsters · 10-06-2011, 04:55 AM

I wasn't offended about people saying they were hybrid at all, I was offended at the comment made that my stock is all pet store stock.
Please read the whole post before you comment...

lisab · 10-06-2011, 06:12 AM

I did read the whole post

radiocricket · 10-06-2011, 06:25 AM

I did not mean to offend you, I hope you can see that but if your lines can't be traced back to imported animals then where did they originate from? Hamsters don't just magically appear and if they weren't imported or purchased from a trusted breeder who can take their lines back to imported or known pure animals, then the only logical conclusion is that they were purchased from a pet store, especially given how readily available they are in pet stores almost everywhere and have been for over a decade.

You can also take a look at the pups and seeing the evidence of hybridization, you know you're dealing with pet store lines from somewhere in the pedigree, especially given you're in the US. As I said previously, just taking two pet stores hamsters and breeding them and their descendants for a few generations doesn't mean too much. Sure you may have pedigrees on them, but the foundation animals are pet store stock. Not that that is entirely bad in itself. As breeders, we should be selectively breeding and can really transform a "pet store line" in a couple of generations:

The River Road Hamstery's "Working on Type"

With WW however, you will always have a problem using pet store lines as your foundation, especially in the US, whether the animals were just purchased at the pet store or if that was ten generations ago as once it's a hybrid, it's always a hybrid. As you can even see now, you're how many generations away from "unknown" hamsters (the farthest back you can go in a pedigree) and you're still getting hamsters that are identifiable as hybrids.

I have to also admit that I don't put too much weight on pedigrees. Pedigrees can be generated by anyone for any hamster. I've even seen people create fraudulent pedigrees on purpose. It's just a piece of paper without anything backing it up (at least with dogs, now there are DNA tests to go along with pedigrees- maybe cats now too). I even have to admit that I don't keep pedigrees on my WW or Campbells, nor does the US breeder that imported pure lines. As long as you don't introduce unknown hamsters into the lines then the animals are still pure, pedigree or not.

The last thing I want to touch upon is whether you can ever be sure you're purchasing pure hamsters. As I said, the pure hamsters are out there and are being distributed. The only thing that you can really go on is that breeder's word and reputation. So many breeders have invested years and decades into their hobby. They make decisions about their lines not only based on their own goals but also upholding a standard for the fancy. Unfortunately, many breeders do not. Just because a breeder shows doesn't mean their hamsters are better. Goodness, a larger UK show breeder has openly admitted to producing hybrids. It's definitely a faster way to get the rounder heads on the WW that the NHC is leaning towards, but it's not the right way. You have to take the time to learn and ask the right questions. It can definitely be tricky but it's worth it as with WW, your foundation stock is what you'll be basing your future line and reputation on. I waited two years to get my WW line and felt it was worth the wait to know I was starting off with pure hamsters.

All of this you may not even have been aware of until now. At this point though, you know you're dealing with hybrids and need to make a decision about what you are going to do next.

-Janice

SnickersTheFirst · 10-06-2011, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lisab

Theres no such thing as a registered breeder

People in the uk who do have either ww or campbells breed them pure, I am just talking about show people as they have to for the shows hybrids are frowned on and if a ww has a bit of campbell or visa versa they cant and wont be shown. Out of the fancy people can breed what ever they want and what ever it looks like the most they will say thats what it is.

Not everyone will see a hamster and know/or think that it is a hybrid.

No matter how many generations back if a ww has been bred with a campbell its a hybrid. It shouldnt be done but if you have no other choice. we are lucky here in the uk that we have pure lines.

There is no need to take offence to people giving an opinion. it may not be what you want to here, but thats life sometimes. No one has ment to offend you

I always thought that you had to register with the NHC?