keeping hamsters together?

[mitsykitty]

So I used two have two female hamsters together and they got a long and I was thinking of putting my two hamsters together in a nice big cage that was a starter cage for my rats. my one problem is I have tried to get them to get a long but Daisy looks like she tries to bite Rosie. Can females actually live together? or do they just fight?

[POLAR WHITES]

I wouldn't risk it I would let them alone if they are happy why upset them and from your message you say she looks like she wants to bite her. If you are going to try it I would half the cage you are thinking of putting them in until they get used to each other but cant get to each other.

[Vectis Hamstery]

Before I can offer advice, it would be useful to know the species of both hamsters and their ages as well as how you have tried to introduce them before :)

[POLAR WHITES]

I secong vectis I am just thinking they are dwarfs, with Syrians defo NO

[mitsykitty]

I just introduced them on the forum yesterday and someone there told me what they are I got Rosie from a pet store and Daisy was a baby from a hamster I had got last year she died :( I think of her age.
Daisy is a black eyed cream roan and Rosie is a sable.
Daisy is a year old as of this summer and Rosie is an adult I think older then a year because she is losing fur behind her eyes the same as my old hamster QT (he was a cuddle bug).

As for when I introduced them it was on my bed with my supervision the walked around each other I am not sure if Daisy was actually biting her or if it was some kind of hamster thing she crawled onto Roses back from the side and looked to me like she was putting her face into Rosie's fur so it looked like she was biting.

The hamster Daisy was with before was her mother even though that doesn't make a difference to hamsters so she grew up with her until I took her out of the cage because they would try to sleep in the wheel that looked way to small for two hamsters to try to sleep in and looked like the would suffocate. I hated that cage it was like a big bubble.

[POLAR WHITES]

please never put Syrian hamster together that is what they are they should always live apart
syrians need to live apart from 6 weeks old they are territorial
they will fight and really hurt each other if put together

[Vectis Hamstery]

Mitsykitty, the girls are syrian hamsters. Syrian hamsters live with their mum, brothers and sisters when they are babies, but when they have grown up they need to live alone. They should have their own cage from the age of 6-8 weeks old and not have any play time or introduction to other hamsters as they will fight. Syrians can give each other very nasty injuries or even kill each other if they are introduced as they are solitary hamsters. I advise you to keep them apart at all times.

[souffle]

Syrian hamsters must never be let together or even introduced as they will fight very badly. They are solitary animals even in the wild so would never come together with another syrian hamster unless for mating. The females even have a special instinct in that when they are ready to mate they freeze and go into a sort of trance which stops them attacking the male.
You must never let them together - a hamster fight is horrible and can end up in the death of one or both hamsters. It can also end up in you getting badly bitten trying to separate them.
The rule for Syrians is one hamster per cage. Any groups you see in pet shops will be babies who have not reached the fighting stage.

[Axeria]

Please, dont do that again , your hamsters are syrians, and they are animals that only seek out a mate when they are in heat.. If they meet another hamster when they are not in heat they can and will kill each other :(

I know it might be fun for you to let your hamsters be together but it is just stressful for them and you should not do that... I think Daisy was biting her, and telling her to stay away from her, it is the natural thing for a syrian to do when they are confronted by another hamster...

Please dont introduse them again, they are solitary animals :)

[mitsykitty]

ok i get it I don't need to be told by everyone not to put them together. when i let them together on my bed they were right with me and I basically had my hands around them all the time. I never put them together again. that's why I had asked here if they could be put together. Daisy and her mom got along fine together so I don't believe every one will kill the other. but sense they didn't grow up together I wont put them together. I would never put them together unsupervised inless I was positive they were getting along just like my rats. I have many animals. that are in separate cages for this reason.

[Axeria]

Lol , its because we where writing at the same tame this thread got blasted with posts :) We are just trying to help you to care for your hamsters in the best way possible :D

Rats and hamsters are not the same, rats need to have a cagemate whilst syrian hamsters need to be alone :)

[mitsykitty]

I know they are not the same I was using it as an example I don't put my rats with a new one until I know they get along because some rats don't get along with others. I have cats, dogs, bunnies, guinea pigs, hamsters, rats, and fish. I was just using them as an example that i wouldn't put them together in less they could get along together. I'm a member on a Rat forum and know that many people say the same thing and stuff but here it was so fast and the same thing over and over again in away that to me wasn't very informational about why they couldn't be together other then that they could fight or kill each other. I use the word could because Daisy and her mother lived together until i separated them because of the cage issue they got along fine.and lived together longer then 6-8 weeks

[Axeria]

If you read what we said you will find why they cant be together, we all said they are solitary animals that only seek out another of their species to mate, all other interactions are useless to a syrian. they do not play or interact as other social species does :) They are loners, also in the wild... That is why ^_^

And if you ask me, that they can kill and hurt eachother is a perfect example on why they should not be together...

You MAY find some syrians that tolerate each other, but that is rare and not something to gamble on :)

[Mucky]

I know they are not the same I was using it as an example I don't put my rats with a new one until I know they get along because some rats don't get along with others. I have cats, dogs, bunnies, guinea pigs, hamsters, rats, and fish. I was just using them as an example that i wouldn't put them together in less they could get along together. I'm a member on a Rat forum and know that many people say the same thing and stuff but here it was so fast and the same thing over and over again in away that to me wasn't very informational about why they couldn't be together other then that they could fight or kill each other. I use the word could because Daisy and her mother lived together until i separated them because of the cage issue they got along fine.and lived together longer then 6-8 weeks
I kept 3 syrians together for 6 weeks(they were 14 weeks when separated), They never injured each other but they were separated when they started chasing each other about the cage, recipients squeaking, i guess it is possible to keep them together for a bit longer (my 3 were litter mates) but they are essentially unsocial animals and will kill each other if given the chance.

i didnt actually keep them together on purpose, i was only suppose to keep them for a week but ended up having to rehome them.

[mitsykitty]

If you read what we said you will find why they cant be together, we all said they are solitary animals that only seek out another of their species to mate, all other interactions are useless to a syrian. they do not play or interact as other social species does :) They are loners, also in the wild... That is why ^_^

And if you ask me, that they can kill and hurt eachother is a perfect example on why they should not be together...

You MAY find some syrians that tolerate each other, but that is rare and not something to gamble on :)

I know you all have said they are solitary animals and only seek out to mate and that other interactions are useless but there is no information on why they are this way that is what i had meant. Also i do believe they can grow a connection to each other when QT had died I found Daisy wasn't her active and hyper self. Qt was a male so they were never let out together but Daisy was a completely different hamster and when I got Rosie she became her self again. So I do think they can get lonely and do have some kind of need but maybe not living together.

[HollyHamster]

Syrians don't get lonely. They don't need friends. They aren't like you and I, aka people, who rely on others for companionship and such. They have a simple mind and within that mind, they don't see other hamsters as "friends" or "enemies". They see another hamster being in their cage as an intrusion on their territory and therefor, must be removed. If there is no way for the other hamster to be removed from their territory, they will fight it to the death. This usually goes on for weeks, or even months, until one of the hamsters is dead from either stress, injuries, or both.

They are solitary animals just as other solitary animals are. Its just the way they are designed by nature.

[Axeria]

No syrians wont get lonely, the reason she calmed down was probably due to the fact that the stressfactor aka. QT was gone. Then when you got a new hammie the stressfactor arose again... That would be my theory anyways :)

Sorry to have to say this, but they dont think like us, you can not set human emotions on a hamster.. Yes they get happy to get to be out of the cage and so on, but a syrian wont need social interaction so it is useless to push our emotions over to them, because they dont feel that for eachother... Abit like mr.Spoc in startrek really xD

[Kirsty1987]

I think that they may not have fought because it was on neutral ground i.e your bed, But had it been in either of there cages then I have no doubt things would of been disastrous as they are extremely territorial animals. Same as in the wild if a syrian wonders into another syrians hamsters territory it would lead to a fight.
This is an instinctive behaviour and not something we can change no matter how domesticated they are. I have heard of a few cases of syrians being kept together with no fighting normally litter mates. But is it ever worth putting the hamster at risk?

[GhostsInSnow]

I know you all have said they are solitary animals and only seek out to mate and that other interactions are useless but there is no information on why they are this way that is what i had meant. Also i do believe they can grow a connection to each other when QT had died I found Daisy wasn't her active and hyper self. Qt was a male so they were never let out together but Daisy was a completely different hamster and when I got Rosie she became her self again. So I do think they can get lonely and do have some kind of need but maybe not living together.

They don't get lonely, they choose to be solitary. Just because here is no information on why or because you think they get along fine or because you've had syrians get along in the past does not mean that it's worth the risk. Even if they get along fine together all it takes is for one to turn whilst you're asleep or out and you could wake up/come back to dead or severely injured hamsters and I'm sure that's not what you want

[mitsykitty]

I am not comparing them to humans. I found that she was not herself you guys do not own my hamster and I could tell by the way she acted she was in fact lonely or sad over the death of QT they would watch each other threw the bars and I believe that it wasn't a "stressful" situation they were in separate cages so they were not together and bars separated them. Also daisy and Rosie's cages are right next to each other and sleep and run on their wheels and eat and drink and chew on their toys when they want to and look very stress free to me. In my opinion she was lonely or at lest missing the fact that another hamster wasn't there near her she grew up from being born next to another hamster cage till now with another hamster next to you her. I do not plan to put them together sense you guys have made it very clear they can't be. The fact that I asked a simple question and then told you guys my experience with my hamster and then none of you say that is possible and practically tell me that I am wrong by saying they are not like humans or like other hamsters is kind of upsetting when animals do have feelings and maybe just maybe she is a hamster that likes to at lest be near another hamster just not in the same cage. I don't think I'll stay on this forum for very long sense my opinion of what I feel and think of how she felt was shot down and not even thought about. I feel very unwelcome here.

[GhostsInSnow]

People are giving you advice because they have your hamsters best interests at heart. There's no need to be so rude about it. People have their opinions for a reason. Most, if not all, places will tell you exactly the same thing. It only takes a quick google search to find out that Syrians are solitary animals -_-

[Axeria]

like we say, syrians dont get lonely no matter who owns them... Just because it is your hamster does not make her diferent to other syrians :) Sorry to have to be the one to brake it to you but the smell of another syrian is enough to stress them... I dont say that you cant have several syrians in one houshold, I just gave you my thoughts on what you saw as sadness and loneliness witch is impossible that she felt as syrians are not social animals..

I never said that animals dont have feelings, I belive that they are capable of strong emotions, but syrians just dont feel emotions like loneliness or sadness for the loss of a hamster in the family and so on... It is you putting your emotions on the hamster, and it is quite comon really I do that all the time with my animals ;) :)

None of us want to upsett you or have the intention of being mean, we just tell you the truth about syrians and their mindset....

It is sad that you find our advice upsetting, but I do encourage you to stay, all the advice you have been given are friendly put and are not meant to hurt you :) We just want to teach you the ways of the syrian ^_^

Just because we are not in agreement does not mean you are not welcome, this is what a forum is for , discussion and advice :D

I really hope you will stay, because I belive we all could benefit from this forum and people are really nice on here :D

[cathface]

I come and go on this forum and only post every so often now, but I just wanted to address the fact that you seem to be getting defensive in every post, mitsykitty. I want to reassure you that the other, older members are not ganging up on you, despite how you might be feeling right now! the reason they keep reiterating each other is because having two hamsters together is a really big risk and everyone here has the hamsters' welfare as top priority.

even though there does not seem to be any "proof" that Syrians cannot live together, in fact there have been occasions where ignorant (and I mean that in the most literal sense rather than as an insult) owners have found their unrelated hamsters cohabiting happily. this is in itself a problem as it may suggest to new owners who stumble across these anecdotes that if they also put two Syrians together, everything will be hunky dory. the truth of it is that Syrians in the wild are solitary animals, having a vast tunnel system home that contains just one hamster. they only come together to breed, and once pups are old enough to fend for themselves, mum chases them off.

if you see hamsters in pet store tanks seemingly cuddled together, it is most likely because they are still quite young - as you have noticed, they start getting scrappy with each other as they get older. most recommend splitting pups up no later than 8 weeks of age to avoid genuine territorial fighting. when animals fight for territory, the loser may be fatally injured, and the winner probably wouldn't come out without a scratch either.

thus many have been very vocal about you keeping your Syrians apart. as responsible pet owners cannot advise or advocate otherwise. please do listen to their advice, and please don't take it the wrong way! :)

[mitsykitty]

You guys just don't understand what I'm getting at. Just because they are proven to not get along with other hamsters does not mean that they couldn't and that there could a rare occasion that they do. Hamster have emotions and sense they do why can't they not feel that way just because most do? I know you guys all think your helping but your doing it in away that makes me feel like you guys are not open to the fact that it is possible and to me I feel you guys are not welcoming at all I had just told you what I thought and felt and being told the same thing over again. I said I won't put them together so I'm not going to. But that was my opinion and thought that you guys just decide I was wrong I have had hamsters sense i was little and never got bit once and I see how they act and how smart they are so I believe that she could have very well missed having another hamster near her. I understand you guys have the best interest for the hamsters in mind. I have been defensive over what I have been reading and saying because I feel that you all think that I will be putting them together again. I came here and asked after having them on my bed together and seeing what happened to know of it was possible to house them together. I do not plan on putting them together again. That's the annoying part of all this you all keep telling me not to do it again I don't plan on it if I did I wouldn't have came here and asked if they could be housed together.

[HollyHamster]

We aren't against you, nor shooting you down. Sure, we don't know your individual hamster, but we do hamsters overall and all hamsters have a few things in common. One of them being that Syrians don't tolerate another hamster in their own territory, that being the confines of their cage. If you had two hamsters' cages next to each other, that's fine. The bars of both cages would define the boundaries of their territory and therefor,each wouldn't see the other has infringing on their territory.

The reason for the behavior change has been stated. Each hamster became more sedate "depressed" as you put it, when they were separated. This is normal behavior for a newly solitary hamster as they are adjusting to a new life without the stress and worry about being in another hamster's territory and therefor having to fight.

Hamsters don't have human emotions, put plain and simple, and as much as you want them to, or see them as behaving as having such, they won't have them. Humans have the innate behavior of wanting to project human emotions onto animals. Its called "personifying" and its used to make oneself feel more comfortable with an unknown situation or environment. It can almost be described as a trait we have used to survive through the ages, and even sometimes in the modern day.

Animals do have feelings, but they are more primitive than ours. They feel things like hunger, pain, distress, defensiveness, and fear, but they don't have complex feelings like hope, love, or compassion.

As you come across more complex animals, like Chimpanzees, dolphins, and even dogs, it becomes increasingly difficult to see them as having less complex emotions and feelings as we have. Mostly because we see intelligence and sentience in them, and to some degree, ourselves.

Okay, I am rambling, but I think you get what I am saying. At least, I hope you do.

[GhostsInSnow]

The reason we keep saying not to do it again is because whether it's proven or not and whether you've had success with it in the past or not, it's just not worth the risk. Fair enough though if you aren't going to do it again. Things do get heated on here occasionally because we're all so passionate about hammies, their care and their welfare :)

[cathface]

honestly, mitsykitty? if you really want to go into it, very few animals feel 'emotion' as humans do, and I do not believe that hamsters fall into that category. I only really skim read what you said previously, but I believe you said your male hamster seemed different after your female died? or was it the other way round? if I read right then it might be less about being "lonely" as "no longer smelling the opposite gender in the room".

I don't think it's a good idea to anthropomorphise/personify animals because giving them human attributes might actually be detrimental to the animal; you think you're doing them a favour, that you're being nice, but it may instead be dangerous for them or teach them bad habits or somesuch. but that's just me. don't get me wrong, I love my two Syrians dearly, and I think they are the sweetest things and have such personalities, but I don't for a moment think, for example, that they might want to hang out together, or that they might want some of my ice cream just because they're looking at it.

we are not telling you that you should not keep them together because we think you will put them together, rather that we are reiterating the fact they they can't be put together in case someone else stumbles on this thread through Google. we understand that you know not to put them together again but your arguing makes everyone feel... on edge, I suppose, as if you want to challenge the fact that they cannot be put together. I tried to be nice and friendly to explain why people might be saying the same things over and over again, but to get such a bristly response, I feel like I shouldn't have bothered? :/

[mitsykitty]

I'm not sayying they have human emotions I'm sayying they have emotions rats have emotions dogs cats guinea pig rabbits hamsters birds raccoons all have their own emotions I used a human emotion because that how I could explain what I thought she felt I just feel on her you are not being open to an idea that maybe just maybe she did feel lonely that's how she grew up she wasn't in the wild or never away from another hamsters near her cage for very long so she doesn't know the difference. I believe animals that are born in a certain emvironment do not see it as a bad place or something because they have never been away from it to learn that.

[HollyHamster]

*facepalm*

[mitsykitty]

*facepalm*

This is why I mean by not being open animals that are born domesticated do not know what it is like to live in the wild and are not taught how to act in the wild either so why is that they should feel the same way as if they were in the wild if they never were there?

[HollyHamster]

Being born in captivity has no bearing on instinctual behaviors. Its just something people say to make excuses for their ignorance. Its like saying that you can keep a pet chimpanzee when in all actuality, they make terrible pets.

[Axeria]

They still have instincts and territorial behaviour even if they are domesticated...
Anyone claiming different just dont have the innsight to the animal world that is realistic...
Syrian hamsters dont feel loneliness, this is a fact not an oppinion..

[mitsykitty]

I'm done. I thought you guys would be more open to an opinion and thought but I guess not. Oh and thanks for basically telling me I don't understand animals.

[Axeria]

I did not say that , i simply stated that its not really an realistic point of view taken the facts about hamsters in consideration.. Please dont read into things stuff that isnt there, read what it sais without any emotion, makes it easier for uss all...

And just because you oppinion is so, does not mean it is a fact...

[GhostsInSnow]

You're not gonna make the situation better by putting words in other peoples mouths. Half of the stuff you're accusing people of saying, hasn't actually been said. There's no need to be so rude and abrasive just because people don't agree with every word you say.

[Kirsty1987]

Oh my days #-o

[Queen Of The High Teas]

This is why I mean by not being open animals that are born domesticated do not know what it is like to live in the wild and are not taught how to act in the wild either so why is that they should feel the same way as if they were in the wild if they never were there?

It's called instinct. Something nature gave them to help them stay alive, and it cannot be removed. Your hamster may be a pet, but its natural instinct will make it behave like a wild one if the situation calls for it. It makes no difference that it's lived in a cage all its life, in it's head it is an animal going by what nature tells it to. Put it this way, dogs have been domesticated for hundreds of years, living in houses, food in a bowl daily, a far cry from the wolves they come from. Yet they will still steal from the bin, scavenge and bolt food down as fast as possible, because for all that domesticated lifestyle, and knowledge it gets food everyday, its instinct is still telling it to grab food whenever its available in case it doesn't get any for another week. And it listens to it, because its so powerful, it can't help it, its what would keep it alive in the wild.

[mitsykitty]

They still have instincts and territorial behaviour even if they are domesticated...
Anyone claiming different just dont have the innsight to the animal world that is realistic...
Syrian hamsters dont feel loneliness, this is a fact not an oppinion..

I took the middle sentence basically thinking you meant that anyone that thinks different is wrong and doesn't understand animals. Sorry I took that the wrong way. Also what kind if proof is there that they don't feel loneliness am if it is a fact then ok. But I am open to my opinion and what I believe and you are open to yours why can't you just say well maybe that's possible and then say what you think instead of just pushing my thought away.

All I'm asking for from you guys is to be open and think maybe it is possible not that it has to be 100% true but that in a rare occasion that maybe a hamster can feel that way.

[Susie]

Dude, i think you got some misinterpretation of behaviours going on injected with a sprinkle of anthropomorphism....

[mitsykitty]

Also I am not putting words in people's mouths maybe I am misunderstanding what is meant to be said if I have twisted someone else's words am sorry as well and not trying to be rude but I'm just trying to get my point across that maybe it is possible. So sorry if I have offended someone by what I have said.

[Axeria]

Thats ok, we all can missunderstand :)

I cant agree with you on this because I know my facts to be true, solitary hamsters as the Syrian is dont feel that they are alone when no other hamsters are around, in fact it is what they like no matter what uppbringing :)

You are ofc entiteled to beleve I am wrong, but it is a well known fact im afraid...

[cathface]

you can have your own opinion! we just all disagree. when everyone disagrees with you because of factual knowledge, surely it's time to have a little rethink? we are open to the idea of others' opinions, but as said before, instincts have no bearing on domestication, and so we just don't agree with what you believe. that doesn't mean we aren't allowing you to have the opinions. the fact is it is 100% true that a hamster's instinct is to live alone.

[mitsykitty]

Thats ok, we all can missunderstand :)

I cant agree with you on this because I know my facts to be true, solitary hamsters as the Syrian is dont feel that they are alone when no other hamsters are around, in fact it is what they like no matter what uppbringing :)

You are ofc intiteled to beleve I am wrong, but it is a well known fact im afraid...

Thank you for understanding my misunderstanding and saying I
am open to my opinion that is all I wanted in the first place was not to be told I am wrong over an over again by all these facts. I just wanted someone to understand that it is my opinion and that I can think its right if I want to and not have all these facts and people keep telling me I am wrong for my own thought that I didn't say was 100% true and that I didn't say was something that every hamster felt.

[Axeria]

That is right you can think whatever you like :) But you must agree that does not make it a fact?

Like if i put it alot on the edge here, my nabour thought it was a perfectly fine way to get rid of unwanted kittens by throwing them in the sea in a garbidge bag, that does not make it right even if he thought so...that was his OPPINION but I knew for a FACT that there where better more kind ways like rehoming... Do you see what I am getting at?

Btw i do not think you do something that extreme not at all, i just put it alot on the edge to make a point, so there it is....

[mitsykitty]

Also I am not asking you to agree but just think that maybe it is possible out of one hamster in like 1000 to have a emotion of feeling lonely. Again you don't have to think my opinions is true but at lest give it a chance even if all the facts are saying something different. I mean people discovered things now that no one ever thought would happen so why cant this just be something that could be rare but possible. Do you understand what I mean? Not asking that in a rude or mean way just asking so everyone understand what I am trying to say

[mitsykitty]

That is right you can think whatever you like :) But you must agree that does not make it a fact?

Like if i put it alot on the edge here, my nabour thought it was a perfectly fine way to get rid of unwanted kittens by throwing them in the sea in a garbidge bag, that does not make it right even if he thought so...that was his OPPINION but I knew for a FACT that there where better more kind ways like rehoming... Do you see what I am getting at?

Btw i do not think you do something that extreme not at all, i just put it alot on the edge to make a point, so there it is....

I understand what you mean. And I didn't see this before what I had just put either way I understand what you mean but all I was asking for was for someone to think maybe in a small percent of hamsters that it could be possible not that it has to be possible for a hamster to feel that way.

[Axeria]

I think we have to agree to disagree on this one ^_^

[mitsykitty]

Now that everyone has a actually came to an agreement lol the one thing that was upsetting the most was not the facts but the on the side comments that were not need by some people one of them not being you Axeria and a few other people that were just giving me facts but the small comments after a while build up to one big one that is rude and not in anyway needed I'm sure we can all agree on that? :)

[Pompompoms]

Should any member have breached one of the rules of the forum, their posts would have been moderated or deleted by myself or another member of the moderating team. Difference of opinion and debate are encouraged, rudeness is not, and would have been dealt with.

We do encourage members to try to stay on topic within a thread, and it is more helpful for members to follow a thread and join in if the same issues aren't repeated constantly. If threads run to pages of the same argument being rehashed, it is sometimes better to accept that you disagree and move on to another subject.

If you have any issue with any of the posts in this thread, the correct procedure is to report it to the moderating team, and we will deal with it under the rules of the forum.

Poms :)

[mitsykitty]

Poms I am sorry the thread got off topic I believe that's my fault. I can see how that would become confusing for someone who just started reading the thread.