Advice please? Ideas on redirecting bar chewing, and other questions!

[mistie]

Hi,

First of all, apologies for another thread on bar chewing, however this is a more complicated question to do with housing as well, so I'm hoping to get more information! Partly relating to housing, and partly behaviour so I thought this would be the better forum.

I have just (Christmas Eve) acquired a rescue Syrian hamster, advertised as a biter on a free pets website my mother frequents (she spotted the ham!); as I had a spare cage I went for it. This hamster is 6 months old, and my plan is to get a new, larger cage ASAP, as I have a mini Duna (I think) and don't consider it big enough. When I collected her, the (mouse) cage she came with turned out to be half the size of my cage, with a tiny wheel and no toys, so a quick transfer across took place. She has a raw patch on her nose where she has been bar-chewing, and no wonder.

Here comes the issue. Bar-chewing is understandabe to a certain extent, but this hamster will try any way possible of getting to the top of the cage in order to chew the bars, even in a very uncomfortable position. Obviously this is all she knows; there is a wooden chewable climbing structure in the cage, which she doesn't chew, and cardboard toilet roll inners which have remained untouched. I understand why she is so obsessive, but would like to find a way of redirecting this behaviour onto more appropriate items. The 'biting' issue I'm less concerned about, as I feel she will come round quite easily, she's a sweet little girl.

My thoughts were to maybe take out any structures/shelves in the Duna that will allow her to reach the top (the only place it has bars), and give her a while in that with plenty of chewable items/toys at 'ground level'? I really want to get her a better, bigger cage, but most of the multi-level ones (which is necessary in terms of space I have available) have bars, and I think it would be better to reduce the bar-chewing behaviour if possible before moving her again?

On that note, does anybody have thoughts on toys that will be more likely to get her interested in chewing them, rather than jumping up to try to reach the bars? She also has no idea how to use a flying saucer, though she was bending her back to use the mouse-sized wheel that was in her tiny cage, but I'm hoping this will come with time.

Apologies on the lengthy post, but I really want to make sure I get this right; I can't buy cage after cage, so thoughts on potential replacements for the Duna would be much appreciated. I don't want to keep her in it for too long, but equally I don't want the obsessive bar-chewing to continue in a new cage and be a lifelong problem. I think the main thing is to find a way of getting her to realise that all these new things in her cage are things she can actually chew, rather than leaving them untouched and obsessing about reaching the bars.

Thanks for reading, here's hoping for a successful conclusion! I've only had her a week so not expecting miracles at this stage, but want to tackle this so I can get her into a bigger cage as soon as possible. Hamsters I've had in the past have of course chewed bars to some extent, but they've also destroyed anything and everything in their cage, which just doesn't seem to occur to her. Even though the Duna is too small, it is at least twice the size of her large cage, so I'm hoping it'll be OK for a few weeks or so unless someone has any great ideas for a large 'bar-less' cage that doesn't have too big a base area?

Edited - Just found a similar cage to the one she was in...look at the water bottle for scale, it's a normal sized one, not larger! Bar spacing is that of a mouse cage, not hamster. Could barely fit through gap to the second floor :( The comment in the item listing for this cage is awful :'(
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LOOK-WOW-Girls-Hamster-Cage-/160945951989?pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Small_Animals&hash=item25792054f5

[Lougarry]

Urghhh, that's horrible.

I think I would be inclined, if you can, to go with a ZZ2, meshing the bars on the top with 6mm mesh (1cm mesh can still be chewed) on the inside. A very determined chewer will start on the hole for the bottle, so best to block that up with a large nut, bolt and washers before it starts. Another, probably even better option, is a tank/glass vivarium. A 4ft Exo Terra would be perfect but they are very expensive new so worth looking on eBay - they tend to go for around the £60 mark.

In the meantime, you might want to thread some cheap wooden dolly pegs on the top bars. Magic used to like to chew these and so do my rats.

Are there any problems with the ham's teeth? If so, I find a Boredom Breakers' gnaw stone stack is a hit (the stones are covered with carrot to attract the ham).

Good luck with your little chew-monster.

[Lougarry]

I should read things properly! If you have limited space and need to go upwards then as you say the best cages (Imac Fantasy and Fun Area Leon) are barred. Exo Terra do tall vivs that you can add your own shelves to. Sully has my old one if you have a look on the Let's See Your Cages thread, which she has made much prettier! (My set up is in the 2011 thread of the same name...)

[mistie]

Thanks for the reply, the vivarium does look impressive - look me ages to find it, rubbish at searches! So are they designed to have shelves added, or is it something you need to do yourself - sorry to be dense, can't see how it works from the pictures.

I'll keep an eye out for the Boredom Breaker then, can go into Pets at Home tomorrow and have a look, anything that is tempting to her will be most helpful. Also like the idea of the pegs, but not sure whether she'll bother with them as she doesn't bother chewing the wooden & cardboard stuff currently in the cage. Re. the mesh, I think the bars on her old cage were 6mm-ish, certainly very narrow, and she still managed to chew them - hence the raw patch above her nose. I'm hoping she'll start to show an interest in the flying saucer at some point, but if not will get her a large wheel as she knows how to use them - was surprised to see a large Syrian hamster bending herself into a miniscule wheel designed for mice/dwarf hamsters!

Don't think there's anything wrong with her teeth, they look fine and she seems to eat OK; the way she acts, leaping up, trying to reach the bars and being restless, it kind of looks as though she's just fixated on reaching the bars. She's not constantly doing it, but enough to concern me that if in a barred cage she'd just chew and chew, I'd rather see if she'll chew other items before even considering bars.

Thanks for the input, gives me a couple of ideas to consider - the ZZ2 cage would be too long unfortunately, nearly twice the length of the Mini Duna, but looks like a great setup.

There are several of those pink cages on Ebay :( Found the source of them as well...
Buy Hamster Starter Kit - Pink at Argos.co.uk - Your Online Shop for Small pet starter kits. (http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/8706605.htm)
What's also scary is the number of positive reviews!!

[linford27]

Thanks for the reply, the vivarium does look impressive - look me ages to find it, rubbish at searches! So are they designed to have shelves added, or is it something you need to do yourself - sorry to be dense, can't see how it works from the pictures.

I'll keep an eye out for the Boredom Breaker then, can go into Pets at Home tomorrow and have a look, anything that is tempting to her will be most helpful. Also like the idea of the pegs, but not sure whether she'll bother with them as she doesn't bother chewing the wooden & cardboard stuff currently in the cage. Re. the mesh, I think the bars on her old cage were 6mm-ish, certainly very narrow, and she still managed to chew them - hence the raw patch above her nose. I'm hoping she'll start to show an interest in the flying saucer at some point, but if not will get her a large wheel as she knows how to use them - was surprised to see a large Syrian hamster bending herself into a miniscule wheel designed for mice/dwarf hamsters!

Don't think there's anything wrong with her teeth, they look fine and she seems to eat OK; the way she acts, leaping up, trying to reach the bars and being restless, it kind of looks as though she's just fixated on reaching the bars. She's not constantly doing it, but enough to concern me that if in a barred cage she'd just chew and chew, I'd rather see if she'll chew other items before even considering bars.

Thanks for the input, gives me a couple of ideas to consider - the ZZ2 cage would be too long unfortunately, nearly twice the length of the Mini Duna, but looks like a great setup.

There are several of those pink cages on Ebay :( Found the source of them as well...
Buy Hamster Starter Kit - Pink at Argos.co.uk - Your Online Shop for Small pet starter kits. (http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/8706605.htm)
What's also scary is the number of positive reviews!!

If you are going to PAH, I can reccomend the 'edible log' or 'edible hidey hut' which looks like a tiki house. Charlie never fails to chew these to pieces, they must be very tasty!

EDIT: looked at the arogs link :(
Someone should write to them and let them know the RSPCA minimum cage requirements! (I think i might!)

[Lougarry]

I put the shelf in myself - a rectangular piece of wood cut to the right size which I then edged with tongue depressors for safety. You could probably glue on strips of wood to use as brackets with aquarium silicone, but I didn't want to do anything too permanent so I used curtain tension rods to support it - like these:
New Spring Loaded Net Curtain Tension Rod Pole Rods | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Spring-Loaded-Net-Curtain-Tension-Rod-Pole-Rods-/180581086290?pt=UK_HG_ScreensShutters_RL&var=&hash=item2a0b78b452)
I used a long log bridge thing as a ramp to reach the first floor, like this one:
Suspension Bridge For Gerbil or Hamster Cage 55 x 7 cm Natural Living Ladder Toy | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Suspension-Bridge-For-Gerbil-or-Hamster-Cage-55-x-7-cm-Natural-Living-Ladder-Toy-/230893907409?pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Small_Animals&var=&hash=item35c2596dd1)
This sort of size Exo Terra would work nicely:
Exo Terra Glass Reptile Terrarium Vivarium 60 x 45 x 60cm | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Exo-Terra-Glass-Reptile-Terrarium-Vivarium-60-x-45-x-60cm-/330850574651?pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Reptiles_Spiders_I nsects&hash=item4d083b213b)

[Kiki_3173]

My syrian doesn't seem to be much of a chewer, but did bar chew pretty badly when he was in his first cage (now he is in a nice sizable bin cage). The only thing he seems to chew on now is a wooden piece he has in his cage (link below) and....Milkbone dog biscuits!!!! He goes to town on them!! Might be worth a try & is pretty cheap also :)

http://http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2752743&f=PAD%2FpsNotAvailInUS%2FNo (http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2752743&f=PAD%2FpsNotAvailInUS%2FNo)

[flix]

:( The comment in the item listing for this cage is awful :'(
~ LOOK WOW ~ Girls Hamster Cage | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LOOK-WOW-Girls-Hamster-Cage-/160945951989?pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Small_Animals&hash=item25792054f5)

Ugh how horrible to say something like that. People like that get me so mad, as if it's the poor hamster's fault they die prematurely. :(

[mistie]

Wow thanks for the vivarium suggestion, had a quick look on Ebay but missed that one! Will see how much that goes for. And the info on making your own shelf is a great idea. May I ask what type of wood you use? I'd be reluctant to use plywood or anything that splinters too easily. Although thinking about it, I wonder if I could get some thick plastic to use instead...hmmm...lighter and easier to clean. I shall think about it! My main worry in DIYing it is to avoid anything that will be toxic to hamsters.

The suggestions for toys are most helpful as well, thanks, will give me an idea of things to pick up :) Lots of new stuff in the cage! Hopefully she will finally be convinced that there are far more exciting things to chew than metal bars.

[mistie]

Ugh how horrible to say something like that. People like that get me so mad, as if it's the poor hamster's fault they die prematurely. :(

Thought when I read the first bit that you meant I was horrible!! I think it's awful...just says it all...obviously all the hamsters they have die young :( Maybe they should look at the way they're 'caring' (or not) for them...

[linford27]

Ugh how horrible to say something like that. People like that get me so mad, as if it's the poor hamster's fault they die prematurely. :(

Thought when I read the first bit that you meant I was horrible!! I think it's awful...just says it all...obviously all the hamsters they have die young :( Maybe they should look at the way they're 'caring' (or not) for them...
I sent an complaint to argos, highlighting that the cage didn't follow RSPCA minimum guidelines, doubt I'll get a reply though

[Lougarry]

I used pine - actually I just got Shelfridges to cut me a piece to the size I wanted Shelfridges - Flying Saucer Wheels & Replacement Shelves for Animal Cages (http://www.shelfridges.co.uk/) (they gave me a discount as I didn't need fixtures) and then treated it with Fiddes hard wax oil to waterproof it. Plastic's a good idea though - maybe you'll be able to find a cheap plastic chopping board in a pound shop or something?

[mistie]

What a great idea! Hadn't thought of a chopping board, was wondering about getting hold of plastic sheeting and seeing if it could be cut to size, but chopping board(s) make for a far neater solution.

Linford, good idea to contact Argos, shame the RSPCA are guidelines rather than actual rules but may at least make them think. I don't know why anybody would think that is an acceptable size for any hamster, let alone an adult Syrian hamster; this poor hamster has been confined to that space for 6 months, with that tiny wheel, so no wonder she has issues.

[linford27]

What a great idea! Hadn't thought of a chopping board, was wondering about getting hold of plastic sheeting and seeing if it could be cut to size, but chopping board(s) make for a far neater solution.

Linford, good idea to contact Argos, shame the RSPCA are guidelines rather than actual rules but may at least make them think. I don't know why anybody would think that is an acceptable size for any hamster, let alone an adult Syrian hamster; this poor hamster has been confined to that space for 6 months, with that tiny wheel, so no wonder she has issues.

Argos's reply was that they assure me their policy is to ensure their
"products are produced to appropriate welfare standards and will not cause injury to animals through normal or foreseeable misuse"

so they are doing nothing, as the cage follows all welfare standards.

[samzyzg]

Its because its a guidline and not an actual law =/ thats what needs to be changed first.

was trying to think of cages but a lot are barred and I saw mentioned you had limited spacing so prefer upwards. maybe a larger cage will stop her bar chewing, it might not though. I really can't think of any helpful suggestions at the moment but I hope you are enjoying your new little terror, and i'm sure once everything is settle she'll settle down and may enjoy being handled :)

[mistie]

Shame Argos show absolutely no concern for the animal :( How ridiculous, sticking to the fact it's legally permissable rather than using common sense.

As for bigger cages, she's been moved temporarily into one twice the size of the pink monstrosity (still too small, but an improvement); it only has bars at the very top, but she is utterly determined to reach those, fixated on them, and ignoring the chewing material in her cage.

Until I can get a better setup, anything climbable has been removed from the Duna cage, so she can't reach the bars, and I have bought a load of different chew toys from Pets at Home. Unfortunately they didn't seem to have the ones mentioned earlier, but some have food inside, should at least draw her attention, there's a salt/mineral block to have a go at, and also something made of compressed hay. Got to be worth a try, get her chewing on foody stuff first!

[shiny]

Its because its a guidline and not an actual law =/ thats what needs to be changed first.

The actual cage size is a guideline but the Animal Welfare law in place does cover potential causes of suffering / illness / ability to behave naturally etc Animal Welfare Act - What have we changed? - Changing the law (http://www.rspca.org.uk/in-action/changingthelaw/whatwechanged/animalwelfareact) & allows for action to be taken if an animal is in a situation likely to cause it suffering such as, I would suggest, living in this cage would do for a Syrian hamster. The hamster does not have sufficient space to express normal behaviour & it would be likely to cause physical damage (your hamster's nose from bar-chewing) & stress-related behaviour (the root cause of the bar-chewing I am sure). The bar-biting would be seen as stereotypical behaviour, widely understood to be a result of mental stress.

It would be worth raising this with a body such as the RSPCA for them to challenge Argos, they have far more clout than individuals. The Argos response is a cop-out, shame on them.

In terms of improving things for you hamster (so glad you got her by the way:)), a bigger cage or preferably a tank has got to be the way ahead. My rescue Syrian Teddy came to me in a tiny cage Liberta Astro Super Hamster Cage – Next Day Delivery Liberta Astro Super Hamster Cage (http://www.cagesworld.co.uk/p/Liberta_Astro_Super_Hamster_Cage.htm) that he had lived in all his life. He couldn't go up the slide to upstairs without pinching his side against the top where it had come unstuck, he could only just fit through the gap at all. He couldn't sit upright to groom or eat in the upstairs. He was at great risk of getting his paws stuck in the two ball things either side. These have gimicky digital counters on the outside so you can see how many times round your hamster has run. Anyway, rant over! I smashed up the cage before it went to the recycling centre so it couldn't be used again. The only decent bit was the water bottle which is one of the best bottles I have ever had :) so I kept that!

Teddy was a terrible bar-biter when we first got him with this cage, he was about 5 months old & had a big line across his nose where he had been biting the bars. We had to wait a few days to pick up his new cage so I gave him lots of time out of the cage in a big cardboard box playpen. As soon as we got him into a Hamster Heaven his behaviour changed, he calmed down & I have never seen him bite the bars since. He is now the most relaxed hammie ever.

As your hamster is so fixated on the bars, the behaviour may be too deeply ingrained for her to stop it in a new cage with bars so a tank may be best longterm. Until you can get another cage, make sure you have something like a big cardboard box she can play in (but not climb out of! I tape the sides up tall on them) & activities to do in there like finding bits of food you have scattered about & hidden, tubes & tunnels scamper through, a nice big wheel to run in, a chew treat to encourage sensible chewing like these maybe Antos Cerea Crocodile - assorted colours - £1.02 : ratRations.com (http://www.ratrations.com/antos-cerea-crocodile-assorted-colours-p-776.html)

I hope this massively long post is useful :)

Looking forward to seeing pics of your lovely new hammie :)

Best wishes,

shiny

[mistie]

Hmm interesting idea. I will contact the RSPCA as suggested, though I don't have much faith in them to be honest, whenever friends and family have raised an animal welfare issue the result has been distinctly unsatisfactory, including a cat seriously suffering but left with the owner, only to die a few weeks later. I have family involved in rescue so I hear the unsavoury details, rather than the PR front the RSPCA like people to see. Worth a shot anyway, can always send a photo of ham's nose if it's at all likely to help. The cage is currently sat in a shed, may be reincarnated at some point in the future as a bird travel cage for vet visits, but not sure. I would definitely class the bar-chewing as a form of stereotypies, it's as though she feels compelled to do it and will go to any lengths to get to the bars, whereas previous hamsters have had the odd chew when they felt like it and then gone back to destroying a toilet roll inner or similar.

Thanks for all the helpful posts, this is a great forum, really nice to see people co-operating on an internet forum without using it as an excuse to verbally abuse each other - some are unbelievable!! Much appreciated.

To be honest a favourite strategy has generally been to allow hamster playtime in an empty bath, supervised of course, as it's about the right size and allows easy cleaning. She has masses of new toys, some for in cage and some for outside cage, so can hopefully convince her that there are far better hobbies than bar chewing. Also started scatter-feeding her food in the current cage.

The Liberta cage also looks awful :( though the dimensions at least sound a bit bigger than the pink cage Flake came in, it sounds as though it had a whole set of other issues. Must have been very satisfying to destroy it!

[bgfloyd]

Sorry if any of these ideas have been mentioned by the other members. This is what I do to get Missy interested in toys and not the bars!:

Rub a treat onto the wooden items (I usually use something juicy like grapes)

If the toy has holes/ nooks and crannys then hide treats in them

Make a 'cracker' out of a cardboard tube and paper with treats inside (this will keep your hamster amused for a while, working out how to get the treats out and getting them used to biting something other than bars!)

Edible toys such as cornstarch chews and those little 'tiki huts' might grab ther interest

I hope this helps, and let us know how you get on and we'd love to see a photo of her in her new cage when you get it :)

[mistie]

Thanks. She has FINALLY taken a couple of bites out of a cardboard tube, hooray! Put a tunnel in there today that is made of compressed hay or similar, and that has been a real hit, although she seems to have taken to sleeping in it as well as running through it and chewing it. Hopefully she'll start to realise she can chew the other things too. I'd say it's good progress anyway.

Like the cracker idea for a homemade toy! :) I've got a big bag of sunflower seed hearts for the birds, she had a couple earlier and seemed to love them, so thinking that may be a good high-value treat to use sparingly.

Couldn't see the tiki huts in Pets at Home :( Still, I bought a good few edible toys, so hopefully they will appeal to her - she also seems interested in a 'log' toy with several holes that is stuffed with food, hoping that will encourage her to chew on the wood.

Poor girl's just all mixed up!! I'm in no hurry, will take things at her pace. Some animals just don't seem to come round, I have a totally messed-up rescue cockatiel who gets freaked out by people and so has to be left to his own devices, but from what I've seen Flake isn't like that. She seems interested in me when I'm watching her, and doesn't run away, it's just hands she's not keen on...understandably so! She is however very good about climbing into something to be lifted in/out of her cage, so that makes it much easier.

[MissGSFL]

When I first got Buttons he had been living in a Rody for 3 years and all he did was bite the bars. He would jump up and cling on with his front paws of he didn't have something to climb on. He would also make a horrible screeching noise as he did so, possibly because of how bent his back was. When he was allowed a wheel it was a dwarf size one and so he was obsessed with the bars.

However, after being in a gerbilarium (half tank and half bars) his behaviour changed in days. He didn't make that noise once in his last year, and only chewed on the bars maybe once a month. He was much more interested in his wheel, toys, treats and mineral block. I actually think the mineral block was what helped 'cure' him because I stuck it in the one corner he chewed on his first day in the cage.

Although it might not be the same with your Ham, I hope it gives you hope that you can sometimes help bar chewers.

And as for that cage, it should be illegal to do that to a poor animal! Not one of God's creatures should be locked up so cruelly, and people should realise it is abuse!

[mistie]

Just looked up the Rody...the one similar to Duna etc? To put it into perspective, I'd say the cage she was in was about half that size, as the Rody looks similar to the Duna she's now in temporarily until I get something better. Wouldn't dream of keeping her in there for 3 years though, poor ham. She's had a dwarf-sized wheel in her cage, and managed to contort her back horribly to run in it! She doesn't seem to quite understand the concept of the Flying Saucer I've given her, so may end up having to get a large normal wheel, but will be considerably different.

Glad to hear more space calmed Buttons down. I've seen the gerbilariums, and was interested, but space looks about the same (or a little less) as what she has now? Not counting the different levels though, that probably makes a huge difference. She has a mineral block in there, among other things, and seems to be getting more 'chewy', though she is still trying to reach the bars at times but is less dedicated to it. Hopefully getting her into a bigger cage will help even more, just need to get hold of one, can't find anything near me at the moment but if nothing comes up soon I'll just have to bite the bullet and spend a bit more on buying new.