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View Full Version : How many Hamsters to keep a line going?


Louby
05-03-2008, 04:44 AM
Hi Guys,

Right...my plans for hamster world domination have hit the next phase.... :wink:

How many hamsters would we need in order to keep our 'line' going?

We are planning on breeding Alvin with Cupcake when she is old enough...and will keep one of their babies...and will then breed our Satin beauty from Holly with someone when she is big enough too...then keep one of those....

How do you keep your line going without having to get too carried away? (not that I would mind...but I think HW would have other ideas! :roll: )

Bourne Valley Hams
05-03-2008, 05:17 AM
Just take it one hamster at a time! Bear in mind that although a girl should have a litter by the time she is 6 months old you have usually got a larger window of opportunity for a boy. Although I will usually keep one out of each litter, sometimes I will wait and keep one from the second litter instead. Having said that, if you want to keep numbers small it may be better to just have one litter from each female then you won't be tempted to keep more!! When you have small numbers and want to show, try and keep a variety of colours/patterns/coat types so that you can enter more different classes.

Louby
05-03-2008, 05:31 AM
Thanks BVH. Thats what we were thinking...to keep one pup from each litter and then go from there...

As for being tempted to keep more if we have more litters...how well you know me BVH :wink: :lol:

Matty Day
05-03-2008, 05:41 AM
Well I have a system in place which lets me get away with one litter a year. For each of my lines but its restrictive as you can only keep boys as females would be passed it.

It works on the principle that you keep one boy and breed him to a unrelated female of the right age when he is old

Its risky though as there is a slight chance that he may be passed it himself.
So under this system I would always keep one boy as a reserve either with me or a friend or breeder who I can trust to loan him back just in case I need him..

Bt saying that there lots of boys which go on for ages. Someone just breed one at nearly three years

I have limited space and time so I am bound to this. Cant wait to I can throw this system out the window though :x

But yes read as much as poss and take your time before deciding anything :x

Basia
05-03-2008, 05:55 AM
I think BVH has given you really good advice. You have started off well too as you have 2 hamsters from a good breeder which you can show and breed from. (I had 3 from a petshop before I even found my way to a breeder).
As someone starting out but just a little bit further down the line than you, I would say there are quite a few pitfalls to watch out for. I was so attached to my first litter I found it very hard to part with them and ended up keeping 4. This was not really a very smart move, they limit me breeding wise and as I had hardly been to a show then I didn't realise that they were not good enough colour-wise.
I have kept just 2 from my second litter a male and female and plan to do the same with my latest litter. I also bought 2 hamsters at the same time as my first litter - a male and female so that I could mate my babies to them. Unfortunately I was never able to get the female to mate, although I have used the male on both of my sisters.
More recently I have bought my pair of goldens and 2 new babies and an older female I hope to show but my numbers have jumped up rapidly - I now have 17 hamsters and another 2 probably staying from the golden litter.
Sorry this is an essay but hopefully you can see how quickly numbers increase and if you need to keep your numbers tight you have to have a LOT of self control - I dont :?

Bourne Valley Hams
05-03-2008, 07:04 AM
if you need to keep your numbers tight you have to have a LOT of self control - I dont :?


Hmmmm - I don't think Louby has a hope then!!! :lol: :lol: :wink:

souffle
05-03-2008, 07:51 AM
We are very well controlled!!!! If you choose very carefully you can get a good variety of classes. We started Pophammy's Custard Hamstery from a SH BE cream carrying cinnamon & LH. We then got a SH satin cinnamon female carrying LH and cream. The babies were a mix of LH, SH satin and normal and cinnys, creams, RE & BE and golden. We kept a SH BE cream satin male, RE LH cream female and a golden. They all showed in different classes. The male was mated kindly to one of Holly's females and we had a LH BE cream male back and we still have his dad. So we have the line and a good lengh of time to mate him. Could probably still mate his dad too. So we have kept our line running 3 yrs with a maximum 5 syrians and also Pophammy has had good show results from them. We intend to sontinue this way as it suits what we can manage. We just need a wife for Napoleon now but we are very choosey or maybe Pophammy just can't decide!! :lol:

Yaffle
05-03-2008, 08:06 AM
mmmmmm, you do have to plan carefully and be very controlled if you want to show well and keep numbers down, I haven't done either up to now! Still, there's hope for me yet :D

Bunsey
05-03-2008, 08:52 AM
this is something i'm interested in, too. i want to keep the hamstery as small as i can. especially as i like to rescue a couple of hams a year at least, too.

My plans were to have 2 completely separate lines because i was gonna have Harvey x Ruby to make LH BECs, some satin, carrying pp. Then i was gonna have Oscar x Phoebe making SH carrying LH BEC, sable and BEC/sable roans. I can't do that now, as Oscar is my only breeding male. The only thing i could do is borrow a lad to mate with Phoebe, but i really do want a sable to put to her so it seems a bit dumb when i've one here! the only reason would be that i could mate ruby son to phoebe daughter. but i could mate ruby son to phoebe and phoebe son to ruby. i could put a sable roan lad to ruby and get a lovely mixture of SH, LH, sable, BEC, satin.

Louby
05-07-2008, 03:15 AM
if you need to keep your numbers tight you have to have a LOT of self control - I dont :?


Hmmmm - I don't think Louby has a hope then!!! :lol: :lol: :wink:

How well you know me BVH! :lol:

Gust0o
05-07-2008, 03:58 AM
I think half the battle is in knowing what you're intending to do with your animals - what colours, to what quality, etc.

With this settled, I think it gives you a better gauge on how your line will develop.

As BVH as noted, one hamster at a time works - it gives you very tight control, over a specific line. You don't need masses of animals - you don't even need to own both halves of any breeding pair, thanks to studding.

This is the journey I'm on - I've picked my intended colour, and I've been very picky about the animals I intend to achieve it with; in future I'll be focusing on minimal litters, and selecting the best pups to remain with me.

Don't be afraid of line-breeding either, as - done with adequate controls - it can be a useful way of 'fixing' good characteristics in your hamsters.

My Black line will be two, and I can't foresee it going beyond 3-4, at the very maximum; 2 and one of their pups is more than fine for now :)

Matty Day
05-07-2008, 07:59 AM
Don't be afraid of line-breeding either, as - done with adequate controls - it can be a useful way of 'fixing' good characteristics in your hamsters.

)

im going to have to disagree with you here line breeding increase the chances of hireditary illnesses and is why thedog breeding world is in such a mess.

im firmly against and will never atempt linebreeding

internet_nobody
05-07-2008, 08:03 AM
im going to have to disagree with you here line breeding increase the chances of hireditary illnesses and is why thedog breeding world is in such a mess.

im firmly against and will never atempt linebreeding

If you're trying to fix a particularly unusual colour it makes sense though, otherwise you might loose it. If you know lots of generations of history, and none of those have had genetic problems I don't really see the harm...

Bunsey
05-07-2008, 08:07 AM
the thing is though, for example, i had Harvey 1.5 years ago. He may have been bred from before i had him. In 1.5 years how many times could that line have been bred and bred back to itself etc. Now Harvey is sick. what if he'd developed some horrific genetic disease or something. by the time you know something's wrong with a hamster in the line it's too late!

Gust0o
05-07-2008, 09:05 AM
im going to have to disagree with you here line breeding increase the chances of hireditary illnesses and is why thedog breeding world is in such a mess.

im firmly against and will never atempt linebreeding

I'm afraid, Matty, that you're confusing line-breeding - which, as I noted, should be carried out with the proper controls - with the kind of mass-breeding which has typified commercial animal sales.

As I also noted, with a small line it's much easier to apply controls - which, I feel, would cater for your point Bunsey; with the proper application of pedigree scrutiny, you would be able to avoid the worst excesses of many unfortunate pet store animals.

As i_n notes, if you're trying to fix a particular colour this can often be a critical technique - this is, after all, how many of the colours we now take for standard were developed.

Likewise, as i_n notes, with the proper planning and control, you're free from the world of assumptions - and can make educated decisions as to the impact of your intervention.

For myself, I wouldn't advocate close line-breeding - that's one of my controls; but I certainly feel that it's an option, which may allow me to improve the quality of my Blacks in future.

Matty Day
05-07-2008, 09:09 AM
well i think line breeding has a lot to answer for and its my opinion that’ it is line breeding has led to aggression in Chinese. this article kind of confirmed my suspicions and shaped my opinion on the matter. if I could I would import some pure wild stock and start experimenting and see what would happen if I added these into my lines.. Its strange that people could colony breed them years ago but cant now

http://www.napak.com/chinese_hamster.html

furthermore i also think that some of the diseases affecting certain Syrian colours could also be a caused by line breeding ie sable and cushings and this theory certainly correlates with the dog breeding world i.e. bulldogs struggling to breath.

http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/20 ... nking.html (http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2006/05/inbred-thinking.html)

You may think im talking rubbish but it’s a fact that every time you copy identical chromosomes the risk of a faulty copy is increased

Bunsey
05-07-2008, 09:38 AM
i agree Matty, i don't like it either. Cushings also appears to be connected to black. nearly everyone you ask who's experienced it said their ham was black or sable! obviously it affects other colours too, but it seems a big co-incidence, all these blacks and sables! You'd think it'd be in things like doves if it was the aa gene, but seemingly not. :?

when my guinea pigs escaped and all mated and bred father to daughters (i only had one male) the babies ended up getting tumours and dying.

I_am_plankton
05-07-2008, 09:43 AM
But Matty some people will do it to keep their lines going, until such a time that they need new stock into it otherwise the line will be inbred. All the experienced breeders know a point that they can go to without making it nasty.

What if you had a really rare breed of something and the only way to make it sustainable was to inbreed a little? Exactly, you can't really justify it can you?

Matty Day
05-07-2008, 11:32 AM
Right I am going to criticize you from two points of view the first from a philosophical view and the second as a hamster keeper so my apologize if you think that its harsh.

I can right the first thing I would say what do you mean a rare colour mutation or a endangered species in the first case I can justify it as being it wrong as your not taking into count any health conditions which may occur. As after all it requires is one cell to copy incorrectly and the more cells which are identical the higher the risk of this. admittedly a lesser risk I would rather out breed in the hope that the new colour could be carried. From a language term I hate the term line breeding it is a euphemism for in breeding though watered down inbreeding. Right you are also practicing specism as you said it can justified with animals then surely your justifying it with humans to then? And we all know what can happen if humans inbreed particular with this historical example. And of course there are others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_II_of_Spain

And finally your being elitist your saying that one rule for some one rule for other

Right you say is worth it to save an endangered species I am going to be a bit more sympathetic here. It would be ok only when it is absolutely vital. However I am going to apply the a situation with the hedonic calculus here. Surely it would not creating the greatest happiness for the animals breed if they had a health condition which put them in pain and suffering. Surely it would be supply the greatest good if we stopped breeding these animal particularly if there going to have a hereditary illness justified

Now hares my other point of view I can understand why you want more colour mutatoinns or better results a t show but surely your putting your lines at risk of developing an nast hereditary illness which could cause the animals which have it pain and suffering?

Louby
05-07-2008, 11:41 AM
Ok...I don't have enough knowledge about linebreeding to add my opinion here, but I just wanted to say, that when I started this topic, by keeping my 'line' going...all I actually meant was to keep Alvin/Cupcakes genes following to future generations. I did not mean linebreeding or inbreeding as is now being discussed.

*Louise backs away from the table and leaves the debate* :wink:

Holly
05-07-2008, 12:08 PM
Unfortunately Matty, if breeders hadn't practisced line-breeding (and, in some cases, direct in-breeding) in the past then you and the rest of us wouldn't need to decide what colours to make up our lines - there would only be the original Golden "wild-type" to breed and show. All of the colour and coat=type mutations would have died out if they hadn't been bred back to relatives carrying the same mutated gene.

Line-breeding and in-breeding (in a carefully controlled manner) are the only ways to save new colours and fix features in your lines - read any book by expert and successful show breeders and I'm afraid you'll read the same.

I'm certainly planning to practice line-breeding, I want to be successful and I believe the hamsters I have from the best breeders who've been line-bred are healthy and happy.

Spuds Mum
05-07-2008, 12:18 PM
I'm not going to get into this debate as I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this, but I do think I need to ask people to be aware of the language they use, which as can be seen from some of the posts above, is verging on being aggressive to be honest.

I also think that we should bear in mind Louby's request for information and respond appropriately. The whole line breeding right or wrong debate should probably if you wish to continue it, should be done via another thread!

Louby, I'm not the right person to give advice on how to breed, show and keep your 'line' or hamster family small - now up to 17 syrians a litter in the nest, 2 more coming in the next couple of weeks and litters planned :oops: I think you may be needing to sweeten HW with a new guitar or two!!! :wink:

internet_nobody
05-07-2008, 12:30 PM
Sorry Louse! Perhaps this should be a new topic.

Right you are also practicing specism as you said it can justified with animals then surely your justifying it with humans to then? And we all know what can happen if humans inbreed particular with this historical example. And of course there are others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_II_of_Spain


That argument just doesn't wash...

There is plenty of evidence that inbreeding in small animals is no way near as damaging as in humans...a nice quote about mice -
inbreeding had relatively minor effects on male reproductive effect and no effect on survivorship

The majority of lab animals are inbred, to ensure results will be the same each time an experiment is done (please no one have a go about this! I'm not advocating animal testing). There are very few lines that actually show reduced lifespan compared to pet animals. Cheetahs are massively inbred, and they're doing fine!

Whilst I wouldn't support anyone inbreeding for the sake of inbreeding, as long as its not done generation after generation and its to keep a rare mutation which will improve the species in the long run I don't see the harm.

Louby
05-07-2008, 12:38 PM
No need for any apologies to me..i love a good debate. :D I just wish I knew enough to join in! :lol: Oneday eh? :wink:

Spuds mum - Your right...I think guitars/drumkits/outside studios need to be used as bribery! We will be at Blenheim on the Sunday too...so our other halves can talk music, while we make a dent in the Sales table :wink: :D

Spuds Mum
05-07-2008, 01:00 PM
No need for any apologies to me..i love a good debate. :D I just wish I knew enough to join in! :lol: Oneday eh? :wink:

Spuds mum - Your right...I think guitars/drumkits/outside studios need to be used as bribery! We will be at Blenheim on the Sunday too...so our other halves can talk music, while we make a dent in the Sales table :wink: :D

*excited squeals* (see what Ive just posted on the chocolate hams thread) yay hamsters - Im salivating at the thought! :x

Louby
05-07-2008, 01:02 PM
Salivating? on one thread...Delicious on another...are you feeling peckish, or are you secretly planning a Coq au Ham? :wink:

Spuds Mum
05-07-2008, 01:08 PM
yes, I obviously have a definite need for a 'ham' sandwich dont I? :lol:

I guess that I am just a food oriented person, so descriptions such as tasty, sweet, delicious etc. just appear to me to be the height of a compliment! :oops:

Bunsey
05-07-2008, 01:18 PM
but, can anyone answer the question of why, if linebreeding is harmless, did my guinea pig babies all get tumours from mating daughters to father??

Gust0o
05-07-2008, 01:19 PM
Apologies for the slight diversion this thread has taken Louby; when I originally posted, I did so with the best intentions of providing you with advice which, to the best of my knowledge, was the most appropriate available.

I have, however, been disappointed with the bent this discussion has taken - and would urge everyone to heed Spud's words, regarding our conduct.

Bearing that in mind, I would like to make a couple of points.

First, the philosophy - which, I feel, doesn't wash in any case. There's a wide gulf between the considered breeding of animals in controlled conditions, at the behest of a third party; versus any suggestion that this might be an acceptable norm of human behaviour in the developed world.

I'm afraid we may just be muddying the waters, in pursuing that line.

Secondly, with regards to the point about bulldog health. I don't feel this is a criticism of line-breeding, per se, but more a criticism of the targeted breeding of certain characteristics - much more akin to Satin/Satin breeding for effect, which would be discouraged whether it was within lines, or not, for it's adverse impact on animal health.

I'm quite happy to leave the discussion at this juncture - Holly and i_n have made some insightful points, which I feel lie at the core of line-breeding; as per my original post, I'm not advocating this as a necessity, but I do feel it is a powerful tool in the breeder's arsenal.

Gust0o
05-07-2008, 01:27 PM
but, can anyone answer the question of why, if linebreeding is harmless, did my guinea pig babies all get tumours from mating daughters to father??

Can you, with scientific certainty, say that line-breeding - and line-breeding alone - was the cause of these ailments?

I'm of the suspicion that, in the absence of medical fact, you're not - and I'd be wary of wielding assumptions as fact.

I'm afraid I don't have an answer to you, Bunsey; but I'm not sure it's the ideal question to be asking.

I'm afraid I'm something of a pedant, when it comes to these kinds of discussions - I'm conscious that, as so many new owners use these forums for advice, that I need to be sure my advice is accurate, and a fair reflection; especially as so much of what we say could be taken as gospel. A situation for which I'll offer my apologies in advance! :D

Matty Day
05-07-2008, 11:31 PM
this is the last thing I am going to say on the issue what don’t we all just forget what was said and have a forum neutral policy to line breeding. I.e. we don’t encourage anyone to line breed or not and not mention it to new breeders asking for advice.

and of course as usual I am going to do some more reading on the subject. I always try to keep an open mind. by no means are my opinions fixed.

Basia
05-08-2008, 12:19 AM
Censorship, then Matty......
Forums are supposed to be a place to express your own opinions, particularly this forum I always thought.

Hamster Widow
05-08-2008, 01:11 AM
I'm just glad this wasn't all about Line Dancing... I HATE that stuff - Yee HAH!!!

Gust0o
05-08-2008, 01:12 AM
Oh yes, Basia - in fact, this is possibly the best place to do so!

I would just hate to fall out over a single issue.

It's at least encouraging that we're able to have such diffuse opinions! :)

I suppose, Louby, it will be down to you to make the decision - there are valid points on both sides, and advantages and disadvantages to both.

You'll have to let us know how you get on, and your plans shape up :)

Holly
05-08-2008, 01:30 AM
The great thing about this forum is that people are allowed to have their own opinions, it wouldn't be the place it is if we weren't.

To my mind, there aren't that many absolute certainties in life - there are a lot of degrees of rightness and wrongness. Unless you are talking about a criminal offence where societal rules state you absolutely must not do something (unlikely on a hamster forum!) then no one is absolutely right or wrong. We all have our opinions and as long as these are expressed politely and not in a way in which we seek to ignore all other opinions and belittle anyone holding an opposing view, then we all should be entitled to speak - shouldn't we?

I posted, just the other day, how I LIKE people to disagree with me - it makes me think about the opposing argument and reassess whether my view is actually as right for me as I thought it was.

I'm going to shut up now - sorry Louby :oops:

Matty Day
05-08-2008, 08:48 AM
well i kind of messed up that last post what i meant by a neutral policy was that we should just always put forward booth sides of the argument and let people make there own minds up. Unfittingly a peace of my post was cut when it transferred it out of word it should of said it should have said in this thread

however I don’t think that we should encourage new breeders to try it as in any case its better and safer in my opinion not to line breed but on the other hand if more experienced breeders want to do it than that’s there choice I just don’t agree with it or condone it

i just in most case question the reasons behind it.

I_am_plankton
05-08-2008, 09:32 AM
Matty like everything you have posted, you are very opinionated. You are against so many things that breeders do, why are you wanting to be a part of the Fancy? You haven't seen most of the practices that you are against, so until you can see this for yourself then you can't surely have a very strong opinion!

You flame people Matty for having their own opinion and it really is starting to bug me.

Mollz
05-08-2008, 09:48 AM
I haven't taken part in this so far as, to be honest, I don't know much about it other than the basics!

This taken into account, I think that as long as it is done sensibly and with knowledge of the background and pasts of the hamsters (i.e. hamsters from proper breeders and not just random hamsters with no known history) then there should be no problem with it. I think, in this topic as in another, that some people object to it because we are comparing hamsters to humans (which is very easy to do as we all have such strong relationships with them) which is a mistake as we are such different creatures.
In the end, it is up to the individual breeders and I certainly wouldn't condemn anybody for doing it (one of my hamsters grandparents were brother and sister and they seem alright so far). Especially as we wouldn't have any of the colours we know today if this hadn't taken place.

Just to add that I too love a good debate and feel that we all have the right to our own opinion and should be able to discuss things like this in a friendly way (which happens the majority of the time on here, although I know it can be easy to get caught up in it). I hope this can continue and we can all respect each others' thoughts.

Matty Day
05-08-2008, 09:54 AM
im sorry if I have flamed people. yes i am very opinionated and i do put to much fire into my arguments. but its only because I care passionately about things

I don’t oppose that much its just I always question everything its in my nature. And I also revise my opinions. Just an example I have revised my opinions on show pens and on cage sizes. We live and learn
And I might revise my opinion on this non of my opinions are set in stone.

souffle
05-08-2008, 11:56 AM
I also have been keeping out of this debate. The forum has no opinions. It is merely a tool for the users to express their own personal opinions. Everyone must judge for themselves which they wish to agree with or disagree with and state their own.

In my opinion speaking scientifically, there are too many variables to attribute any particular problem to simple line breeding. Enormous amounts of research need to be done to establish causes of certain illnesses. It could be down to radiation, feeding on GM modified foods, random genetic mutation, hormones in the water, viruses, bacteria, medicines, atmospheric pollution etc, etc. After all, all our pets came from 12 individuals so there has been some major line breeding going on from day one here. Overall the majority of hamsters are born healthy and it is the human race that causes more suffering in their care and abandonment than any line breeding.
Even if you brought in wild Chinese Matty how do you know you are not bringing in animals with viral or radiation induced tumours or animals that have line bred in the wild due to diminishing numbers? You don't. As breeders we can only do our best to try and ensure the breeding of healthy animals.
Sorry Louby but I think your thread has been very enlightening and interesting and you do have the appropriate comments on your question so I hope it OK with you to keep this running as it is hard to split the mix now!

Louby
05-08-2008, 12:06 PM
No problem, please do not worry about splitting it on my account. :D

I am finding the debate very enlightening, and, as I have not researched it enough to have my own opinion one way or another, I am enjoying just sitting on the fence and watching! :wink:

Carry on people!!! :lol:

Bunsey
05-08-2008, 01:14 PM
i don't think that it's necessary for someone not to be a part of the Fancy because they disagree with a lot of things. It's fair play for someone to do things differently. I can't say i agree with some of the things some breeders do (e.g. some of the cages), but i still love being part of the fancy and i'll just do things in a way that suits me instead and i most likely will not line breed, but if others do, it doesn't bother me tremendously. I also don't agree with breeding pet shop hams into lines, but i know others do and i can see why, but i don't want that for my hamstery, especially as i have no space to keep 20 hamsters if it goes wrong and i can't sell them. i don't want to risk gentic diseases showing themselves much later after the line's been continued and others have bred from the line, too. disaster!

Louby
05-08-2008, 01:24 PM
Ok...a question... (see..I can join in now! :wink: )

How close a relation would you class as being 'inbred'?

Would you think it was inbreeding if it were 2 hamsters that have the same, say, Great Great Grandparents? Or would Brother/Sister or Father/Daughter be the main assumption?

Personally, I wouldn't consider great great grandparents inbreeding at all, infact...while we are doing the human/hamster comparisons, my great grandparents were 1st cousins (I study geneology) and no, I don't have 2 heads :D :wink: .

I_am_plankton
05-08-2008, 01:33 PM
Bunsey what I was getting that was that certain people seem to be opposed to most things that some members of the Fancy do, so what was the point in it. Everything like this is very sensitive, and I will always try and defend people that I know and trust, and most importantly have become my friends, and will not see certain issues shot down (but thankfully as the majority of people have shown in this thread, they are very open minded etc).

Bunsey
05-08-2008, 01:34 PM
i wouldn't call having the same great great grandparents inbreeding. I'd call brother/sister, father/daughter, mother/son inbreeding. line breeding would be the latter two.

internet_nobody
05-08-2008, 01:41 PM
i wouldn't call having the same great great grandparents inbreeding. I'd call brother/sister, father/daughter, mother/son inbreeding. line breeding would be the latter two.

Not trying to start a fight, and this isn't just aimed at you but at anyone who doesn't agree with more direct inbreeding...at what point are the hamsters too closely related?

Louby
05-08-2008, 01:42 PM
i wouldn't call having the same great great grandparents inbreeding. I'd call brother/sister, father/daughter, mother/son inbreeding. line breeding would be the latter two.

Not trying to start a fight, and this isn't just aimed at you but at anyone who doesn't agree with more direct inbreeding...at what point are the hamsters too closely related?

Thats what I meant by my question :wink:

Basia
05-08-2008, 02:08 PM
If great grandparents are the same then the hamsters bred together were first cousins, i.e. 2 of their parents were brother and sister.
My Posh babies are just such a litter. :wink:
Its probably as close as I would linebreed at the moment but I personally don't have a problem with linebreeding or inbreeding.

Matty Day
05-08-2008, 02:58 PM
Its my opinion that mating an grandparent to grandchild parent to child and sibling to sibling shouldn’t be done unless under exceptional circumstances i.e. new mutation. And only if another method has failed or is impossible i.e. breeding to separate lines carrying the gene and mating together after a few generations

I also thing that cousin to cousin is ok to do it once or maybe twice but don’t breed cousins back to back as this again increase the risk of faulty genes

This is my personal opinion though

Bourne Valley Hams
05-08-2008, 03:07 PM
Matty, I realise you are very young and passionate and have strong opinions. However, you are also very, very inexperienced in all matters hamster related.
May I suggest that occasionally you may learn more by listening to those more experienced than yourself rather than damning them.

Matty Day
05-08-2008, 03:33 PM
Matty, I realise you are very young and passionate and have strong opinions. However, you are also very, very inexperienced in all matters hamster related.
May I suggest that occasionally you may learn more by listening to those more experienced than yourself rather than damning them.

I can understand that and agree with I like to review my own opinions regularly and put them to the test. Im also o t eh hunt for some hamster books at the moment. I am a great believer on putting my belief and opinions to the test.

I am not damming anyone I just don’t agree with it personally . However things may change I always think that people are brave if they change sides in any argument.


However I do think that aggression in Chinese, chushings and maybe kinked tail in dark greys etc could be linked to line breeding as there is a correlation between certain colours and this and how were these colour created? This is no ones fault however. And was just an unlucky . However more research is needed into this are me thinks

Bunsey
05-08-2008, 03:38 PM
i wouldn't call having the same great great grandparents inbreeding. I'd call brother/sister, father/daughter, mother/son inbreeding. line breeding would be the latter two.

Not trying to start a fight, and this isn't just aimed at you but at anyone who doesn't agree with more direct inbreeding...at what point are the hamsters too closely related?

a good question. i'd say no to a parent and child or 2 siblings flat out. I'd have to think about grandparent or cousin... not sure there.

Bourne Valley Hams
05-09-2008, 01:28 AM
It can be difficult now that there are so many different show colours. Take silver grey for example. As most of you know, I have some very nice silver greys. They are good show standard, healthy and long lived. However, every one is related at some point in their ancestry. So what do I do to continue breeding show winning silver greys? As far as I am aware every show standard silver within the fancy now comes back to my lines. Do I import? No, wait a minute, my silvers have been exported to Europe so they are probably related too. Do I buy random silverish hamsters from pet shops? Who knows what genes and health problems I will be bringing in to my lines. Do I outbreed to another colour. Well yes, I do this, hence the b/e whites, ivories, silver chocolates and silver sables etc. However, the best show standard silvers come from silver to silver matings.
If you avoid mating related hamsters at all costs then all the show colours will be lost and all hamsters will revert to wild golden.

Holly
05-09-2008, 01:51 AM
I'm totally with you, BVH - it was seeing your beautiful hamsters, all amazing "types" and looking at their pedigrees that made me realise the merits of line-breeding as a way of fixing desirable features. I plan to mate a female to her Great-uncle in the Autumn (providing she turns out to have the same good features as him of course).


I think there's a world of difference between planned line-breeding (and even closer in-breeding for a purpose) than randomly chucking two related hamsters together - and long may it continue (in your show winning lines and maybe, one day, in mine :wink: ).

Basia
05-09-2008, 02:05 AM
Well I haven't been breeding hamsters very long at all but I can't imagine that the principles differ greatly from breeding other pedigree animals.
I was always taught that linebreeding sets type and keeps your quality consistent with an occasional outcross for fresh blood. This has always worked for me in the past so I hope it works for me in the future with hamsters too!

I_am_plankton
05-09-2008, 02:25 AM
I was going to use your Sliver Greys as an example BVH as I know you have said in the past that they all originate back to your lines! This is a case where it works very well indeed!

Bunsey
05-09-2008, 10:53 AM
i don't see anything wrong with that... all originating back to the same ones, it's just mating brother and sister of father with daughter that i don't like. My Harvey and Oscar go back to some of the same grandparents/great GPs, but if they were male/female i wouldn't see a problem mating them because they're only like 2nd cousins once removed or soemthing.

Holly
05-09-2008, 02:31 PM
To me, that's what line-breeding is - distant relatives. In-breeding is father-daughter, mother-son and brother-sister .... or do I have the total wrong end of the stick?

Bunsey
05-09-2008, 02:36 PM
not sure. i thought line breeding just meant breeding back to a generation above. As in the line that comes down a family tree

Spuds Mum
05-09-2008, 02:39 PM
Books ive read always refer to line breeding as a less direct form of inbreeding - ie more distant. And this is what I consider to be line breeding too.

Apart from one - which talked about line breeding but was actually referring to breeding in 'lines' i.e. establishing two lines from breeding back to parents, grandparents etc.

Holly
05-09-2008, 02:46 PM
Books ive read always refer to line breeding as a less direct form of inbreeding - ie more distant. And this is what I consider to be line breeding too.


Me too! Perhaps we need to be clear exactly what we mean - I'm into my idea of line-breeding but I'm not ready to do any mother/son breeding at this stage (though I did consider mating my little Creme Egg back to Smarts for a REC litter I discounted that idea as soon as I had it really) :?

Matty Day
05-09-2008, 02:54 PM
Well I do think that its ok once but I would not do it back to back in a line I would have a gap of at least 5 generations before even attempting it again and I would never do it from the direct line eg grandparents . Syrians I would mate cousins or uncles to nieces etc one but not generation after generation

I would however never do it with Chinese I am going to keep a very wide and varied bloodline here . As I want to do some preliminary trials on aggression with my normal,s however they might be to inbred as it is and wild hams might be the only answer. but how the hell do i import them? while still improving my line up to the show standard
Personally I wont mate anything sharing even a great grand parent with Chinese. Except in one circumstance I have decided to go for it im going to see if I can stabilize the bew mutation if I every get any in my dom spots.

Louby
05-09-2008, 03:01 PM
Ok...I have now looked into linebreeding and inbreeding, and now understand more about it.

I will be linebreeding with my first litter (Alvin and Cupcake) as they both have Mackeson as a Grandfather, (Cupcake also has him as a Great Grandfather on her other side too) which effectively makes them Cousins of sorts.

I have researched it, and am perfectly happy to do this, and, as a well respected breeder, has also given her blessing, I am confident that I have made the right decision.

Goodness Mackeson was a busy boy wasn't he? :wink:

Spuds Mum
05-09-2008, 03:19 PM
He certainly was - its a wonder he stays so big, he seems to get so much exercise.

With my litters (and Holly's too) the name that kept cropping up was Zimbali - and in my BB litter, BB's grandpa is also Dubaku's grandpa

Bunsey
05-09-2008, 05:36 PM
just to throw a bit of a spanner in the works, but the chinese that are from pet shops, how do you know they aren't related?

Matty Day
05-09-2008, 05:46 PM
i will use some pet shops but not that many if i vary the pet shops i get them from there’s always a risk but i can reduce it by varying the source. Not perfect I know most of them will be breeder hams but i will try all sorts of places and check pedigrees carefully and i might import from abroad if I need to I know that duncton hams have done this so its possible

Spuds Mum
05-09-2008, 05:49 PM
Books ive read always refer to line breeding as a less direct form of inbreeding - ie more distant. And this is what I consider to be line breeding too.


Me too! Perhaps we need to be clear exactly what we mean - I'm into my idea of line-breeding but I'm not ready to do any mother/son breeding at this stage (though I did consider mating my little Creme Egg back to Smarts for a REC litter I discounted that idea as soon as I had it really) :?

But I may have plans for Eggie!!! :wink:

Holly
05-10-2008, 01:58 AM
Oh yes, your plans are much better for little Eggy, bless him :wink: ......no line-in-breeding at all - although, I suspect, if we look right back......!).

(I haven't named a hamster Eggy, well not really - I've decided to name my REC baby boy Creme Egg, Eggy for short! :wink: ).

Spuds Mum
05-10-2008, 02:05 AM
I think that zimbali name would crop up a couple of times, maybe Rossalyn, Benedict. Those are the ones that keep appearing in my pedigrees (well for the creams anyway)
:D

Eggy/creme egg is a great name for a hamster - I think its fantastic :D

I_am_plankton
05-10-2008, 02:35 AM
Matty importing is a good idea, however it is quite costly (I think Andrew paid £200+ after ferry fees etc and flights to import I think 10 hammies).

With Chinese also it is good to maybe mixup with petshop hams, as Lilliput explained Saturday she can't get directly from Alex for example as all of his are related to hers closely, and is why she fancied one of yours as it had been outcrossed slightly.

Matty Day
05-10-2008, 02:53 AM
Matty importing is a good idea, however it is quite costly (I think Andrew paid £200+ after ferry fees etc and flights to import I think 10 hammies).




thats not to bad i could raise that sort of monet if nessery. if i did i would import with maybe a few other people thougth if i can pursade them to.

Tammy22
05-10-2008, 03:09 AM
Matty,

i think i had similar ideas to you when i first starting breeding my Roborovskis a few years ago.

I vowed never to use Pet Shop Hams and never to inbreed.

To date i have never used any hamsters for breeding which i bought from pet shops and i have never mated related hamsters (even distand relations) - i didnt agree with it, so i never did it.

I found it extremely difficult to find Roborovskis who are not related to mine and not from a pet shop, and i ended up travelling many miles to find some suitable Robos - but even then, i had hamsters with pedigrees which went back 3 or 4 generations, but i have my suspicions that they originally came from pet shop hams - which doesnt concern me too much as i believe that pet shop hams werent too bad a few years ago, espcially with Robos - and i was assured they were not related.

I then got in contact with Andrew (Duncton Hams) and swapped one of my females with one of his males, from the Finish imported lines - His name is 'Mario' now and he has fathered a litter very recently - he is lovely and i am very pleased with him - but even he has parents which were bother and sister! - this was done to keep the imported Finish line pure.

Even though i dont believe in inbreeding, i couldnt really miss the chance of having a male who was 100% not related to any of mine, and it certainly hasnt done any harm.

I think that if it is only done once in a while, then inbreeding is ok, and as long as the hamsters are comletely healthy and not already from inbred lines. I also think that it must only be done when it is absolutely neccessary and by someone who knows exactly what they are doing and what the outcome will be!

I think breeding Chinese hamsters must be the same as breeding Roborovskis, in that sooner or later hamsters must be imported to prevent us from having to use inbreeding frequently.

In my oppinion, breeding hamsters which come from pet shops is much worse than inbreeding, as least with inbreeding the histories of each hamster is known, but who knows what you are bringing in to your lines with pets shop hams? or how many generations they have already been inbred? - but that is just my oppinion :oops:

All of this was relevant to breeding Roborovskis - i have no idea about these issues with Syrians.

Tammy x

Bunsey
05-10-2008, 10:43 AM
yes, with pet shops they could already be inbred. For example, my pet shop robo bro/sis bred. What if i'd left the babies in togetehr too long and THEY then bred. 2 generations of bro/sis inbreeding.... then what if i'd taken them back to p@h because i couldn't find homes.... then someone bought them and bred them again!!! you just don't know with pet shop hams. At that time there was no adoption and accidental litters were just sold with the others.

I_am_plankton
05-10-2008, 10:48 AM
But surely if people choose to mate a pet shop ham it is because their own lines are in danger of becoming obsolete or too inbred (read BVH's remark). So as long as people do the right thing and breed them to a well pedigreed hamster going back 5 or 6 generations at least, then the harm in doing so is therefore reduced. Some people will see a colour that is hard to produce or something, or that pet shop ham might have a nice band or something, and a breeder will get it to add a bit of variety. I would say that it is rare something nasty comes out of it, since breeders would not jeopardise their own hard work!

The breeder who bred my Campbells lost his satin line, and managed to get a satin Campbell that was bred by the owners of a petshop to put back into his lines. He is now producing some very nice satins!

Tammy22
05-10-2008, 10:51 AM
I agree that pet shop hams could be used, but i think that they should only be used as a second choice to inbreeding - as a last resort.

(if either of the two must be used at all!)

Just my oppinion though :)

Tammy x

Bunsey
05-10-2008, 10:55 AM
fair enough if it's a little pet shop who breeds their own or whatever, but hams in pets at home could well be already 2 generations in-bred! i'm sorry but i'd loose my line before i'd breed a ham that was 2 generations brother/sister inbred! I think doing that to save a line, however good, is pointless and unethical. You can't save a good line by putting terrible stock into it! the line would be damaged anway. To me, the point in the fancy is to preserve good genes and well-bred hams... not to save a line at any cost. That's my ethics anyway, to preserve these well-bred hams, but putting inbred pet shop hams into the line is just contradictive of this. I'm not good at explaining myself, but i hope you can see what i mean :?

I_am_plankton
05-10-2008, 11:00 AM
I don't mean to sound rude but I think that if you are on about people who are very small scale breeders having 1 or 2 litters a year, then they are able to go to a larger scale breeder and get more stock to create a new line and replenish their stock. However a lot of the larger scale breeders aren't able to do this as a lot of their lines originate from the same ones, and if they lost them then most colours and things would really die out, so outcrossing is done to prevent this. They can't win because if they outcross to a petshop hamster that is supposedly wrong, and yet if they inbreed a little that is supposedly wrong also :S What are they meant to do? Those who can import, do, but again abroad their rules and regulations regarding stock are different. For example in some countries they openly breed hybrids and such.

Can I also say that in relation to "I think doing that to save a line, however good, is pointless and unethical. You can't save a good line by putting terrible stock into it! the line would be damaged anway" that that is why you breed back to a pedigreed hamster that carries everything nicely, so that the new blood keeps things fresh with a bit more to play with in terms of genetics and such, but it enables breeders to then further develop the babies that are coming out, by putting them back to further more pedigreed hamsters and increasing the chances of nicer stock.

I don't think there is a really clear-cut right answer here.

Matty Day
05-10-2008, 11:10 AM
in a ideal world we would have a larger gene pool for all species but this is not the case. there nothing we can do about this at the moment.

however in the mean time we can always outcross to pet shops personly i hate pets at home and the way they breed but id rather keep my meritocracy system than line breed.

even if a hamster is inbreed from a pet shops whats the chance thats its closely raleted to a show ham?

i see no problem with breeding pet shop hams into show lines after all who knows its unlikly buy you could buy a bis from a pet shop

heres a questoin bunsey what it if you got a rescue/pet shop ham who won bis :x

Bunsey
05-10-2008, 11:24 AM
oh my god i just typed an essay and then it said page not found and it's all gone :cry: :cry:

i can't really be bothered to type it again, but my jist is that i'd prefer to line breed than use pet shops. i think it's better to breed 2 pet shops together and check the generations for problems than introduce a pet shop to a line and maybe bodge it!

If a pet shop won BIS... hmmm.... i don't know. it could be a good type etc. but still no garentee that down the line it's not gonna have a genetic disease/

i'm not saying i know the answers, i don't. i'm just feeling a bit picked on here for having opinions different from other people. I never thought i'd be the only one somewhere who disagrees with breeding pet shops and siblings!! I just think the whole point in the fancy and all the advise we give to people is 1)don't breed pet shops 2)don't breed brother and sister.... but now apparently it's ok for us to do? :?

Basia
05-10-2008, 11:58 AM
I think other people have expressed the same opinion as you on this thread, Bunsey, don't feel picked on.
I don't believe anyone would choose to breed from a petshop hamster or brother and sister for preference.
Linebreeding is really more distantly related hamsters than brother and sister and I think most breeders linebreed but everyone is entitled to their opinion and you must do whatever you feel is right.
:P

internet_nobody
05-10-2008, 12:03 PM
I never thought i'd be the only one somewhere who disagrees with breeding pet shops and siblings!! I just think the whole point in the fancy and all the advise we give to people is 1)don't breed pet shops 2)don't breed brother and sister.... but now apparently it's ok for us to do? :?

I don't like the idea of breeding pet shop hams...but maybe thats just because being a dwarf person I worry more about hybrids. I've also heard enough "my hamster died after a few weeks/months" stories that can't all be bad luck/bad care. However, if its at the stage where you see a pet shop ham that is the colour you want, and it'd be a matter of keeping a line going I can understand why people take the risk. For Syrians/Robos/Chinese importing is possible but expensive (i've left the other two out cos of hybrids being acceptable in other countries), plus not quick.

Matty Day
05-10-2008, 12:09 PM
sorry if you feel im picking on you bunsey but i felt that point had to be made. in a ideal world there would be no need to do either line breed or add pet shops i fell that adding pet shops is fine as long as there healthyand happy and score ok on the show bench its fine.

Bourne Valley Hams
05-10-2008, 12:17 PM
As Mark breeds winter whites and campbells he never breeds from pet shop hamsters or hamsters from any breeder where he cannot be certain that they are not hybrid. Obviously this leaves him with a very small selection of breeders whose hamsters he trusts which can make things very difficult. But at least it keeps his hamstery small as litters tend to be few and far between!! :D
I very, very occasionally will buy in a pet shop hamster, but only when efforts to find unrelated hamsters of the colour I require have failed. Even then I know I will probably have several generations of hamsters that don't quite make show grade, and all sorts of unexpected colours usually pop out!! :roll:

souffle
05-10-2008, 12:18 PM
Scoring OK on the show bench has no bearing on the health, genetic background or the type of babies such hamsters will produce. Remember folks all our syrians are descended from those first 12 anyway and all share a common genetic pool. Not all problems are genetic and there are other causes for genetic disorders such as radiation, natural mutation etc so everything needs taken into account.

Bunsey
05-10-2008, 12:21 PM
exactly, the RISK...

I think that's what needs to be emphasised. that's it's a risk. i just got the impression that some people thought there was no problem with it at all. in extreme circumstances where a colour would be lost or something then fair enough, but not as a daily thing.

i've lost Harvey's genes because i kept waiting for a cinnie girl from a good breeder to turn up, when i could've just mated him with a pet shop girl, but i wouldn't take the risk. what if someone came back to me and said my hamster has died or got some genetic illness. i'd never forgive myself.

i don't think it's as big a deal with chinese Matty, as they're newer to the market and haven't been as bodged up as pet shop syrians.

Matty Day
05-10-2008, 12:25 PM
this is my system for chinese so i dont have to worry about eyeless white's hybrids etc.

syrain wise i havent set a policy yet :x

internet_nobody
05-10-2008, 12:28 PM
sorry if you feel im picking on you bunsey but i felt that point had to be made. in a ideal world there would be no need to do either line breed or add pet shops i fell that adding pet shops is fine as long as there healthyand happy and score ok on the show bench its fine.

My first winter whites were from an accidental litter. They didn't do well at shows, but weren't the worst. Having seen pictures of their siblings, its pretty likely they were hybrids - what if i'd decided to breed them as they hadn't been picked up as hybrids?

I also know someone who had her hamster checked by a judge, and was told they looked pure...she bred them...the babies don't even need someone experienced to tell they aren't pure, and unfortunately a lot have died young. I know you aren't going to have that problem in Chinese, Matty, but it just goes to show you have no idea what you're getting into if you breed pet shop hams for no good reason.

Matty Day
05-10-2008, 12:37 PM
I am going to say this now i will never never never breed winter whites of Campbell’s. at all

this is a policy for Chinese a species were not very much can go wrong .
i will of course see how the go keep an eye out for the usual health problems etc. i always do wherever a ham comes from. And I will breed as late as possible.
and i would have a good reason to out cross my own lines.

I_am_plankton
05-10-2008, 01:38 PM
Can I just say where I am on this, as I am now thinking some people think that I am saying it is fine to do what I was saying above willy-nilly.. I don't believe that, and where possible it would be ideal for people not to do that at all, just in some circumstances it is necessary and I am just defending the other end of the stick.

Bunsey, ideally I would not condone people new to breeding to try anything that I have been justifying, however there are circumstances as you can appreciate. I do not think it is fine to do anything like that on a daily basis as you have said.

This is going to be my last post on the matter before we all end up arguing and not putting opinions forward. I am not really an argumentative person so yeah.

Bunsey
05-10-2008, 02:34 PM
i guess one thing to notice is that we all care about hamsters so much to have these debates in the first place :wink:

I've been e-mailing someone who i noticed sells winter whites online and i had to give in after much debate and email to say her mandarins are hybrids. apparently she was given them by a SHOW breeder and told they were pure winter whites. I feel sorry for her because she tried to do it properly and took the trouble to find a breeder... and still ended up with mandarins!! it's a mine field out there!!

I_am_plankton
05-10-2008, 02:57 PM
That wasn't a lady on preloved was it? Someone on there was selling them as pure and they were mandarins too :S I wonder whether these people were sold them and told about them a few years back when they were thought to be pure and she hasn't been told any different so has continued? I feel sorry for her in that situation.

Bunsey
05-10-2008, 03:02 PM
yeah, it was. i gave her this forum addy so i don't wana say names in case she joins. The breeder was a BHA shower i think.

I_am_plankton
05-10-2008, 03:06 PM
Ooh I hope she does...I almost emailed a while ago but refrained as I didn't want to upset anybody. I wonder whether she has continued a line from a few years ago as mentioned above.

This is a good valuable resource to everyone!

internet_nobody
05-10-2008, 03:06 PM
I also know someone who started breeding pet shop stock, then went to a breeder to do things right and ended up with a mushroom when they were still thought pure :( Its sad when people really try and do it right but people give wrong info.

Bunsey
05-10-2008, 03:15 PM
she was very nice and actually seemed to care and asked me questions. i put off e-mailing for ages, too.