Is a boy capable of breeding at 9 weeks old?

[Mollz]

Well, we're all very excited here as Amelie turns 16 weeks old within the next few days and weighing in at 206g last Wednesday we decided that we would like to breed her in the week starting the 12th of May if possible (as this will make the babies 5 weeks for the bath show and 6 weeks for Willington (if we decide to make the 2 1/2 hour drive :? ).
Our only problem is that our little Doodles will only be 9 weeks old at this point, so will he know what to do? I know there has been the odd case of 5 week olds getting pregnant when not split early enough, but would it be usual for a 9 week old boy to be capable of getting a female pregnant? If not we can leave it a bit longer, but felt that this was a good time.

Anyway, you advice is appreciated :D

[Tammy22]

Hi Mollz,

as you probably already know, i am only just getting into Syrian breeding, so i don't know much about it from personal experience, just from the research i have been doing.

I am sure i have read that Male Syrians (as you have already said) are capable of mating and producing a litter as early as 3 and a half weeks old.

I think i have also read that it doesnt really matter how old the male is as long as he is large enough to do the job :oops: , i mean you need to make sure the female isnt too large, lol!

But i think that if the male is large enough then it is ok to mate them.

You will probably want to wait until the Syrian breeders reply, just thought i would add my thoughts :oops:

Tammy x

[Bourne Valley Hams]

If he can reach he can do it Mollz!! He will certainly be willing to try. Young males can be a bit clueless though and often get the wrong end in their excitement, so it depends how patient Amelie is with him!
Looking at his brother he is definitely mature enough to give it a go.

[Mollz]

Thanks BVH (and Tammy22!), I was hoping you would say that. By the way; the boys are lovely, doing brilliantly and growing rapidly (they are putting on between 18 and 28g a week :shock: ).
If he gets the wrong end, do I just leave him or move him to the right end? :x

[Bourne Valley Hams]

You can turn him round and put him into the right position - he will get the idea eventually! :lol:

[Mollz]

Ok!

Can't believe how close it is, it seems like only yesterday that I picked a tiny 6 week old Amelie up - now she's huge and we're planning on breeding her in a week or so :shock: :)
Really looking forward to watching the little babas grow though :D

[Basia]

Good luck Molz - so exciting. :P
The first litter is really special, I think.

[Louby]

Ok!

Can't believe how close it is, it seems like only yesterday that I picked a tiny 6 week old Amelie up - now she's huge and we're planning on breeding her in a week or so :shock: :)
Really looking forward to watching the little babas grow though :D

I'm so excited for you!!!

Can't wait for updates and photos when the time comes! :D

[Bunsey]

i absolutely cannot wait for me first litter, so i know what you're going through excitement wise! As soon as Ruby is 16 weeks and heavy enough, she's getting knocked up! Oscar is desperate to get his end away!! The ladies are driving him mad because they both target him to stick their bums at and freeze in their balls!

[sarahh]

Hi Just wanted to add that maybe 9 weeks it too young for them to start breeding and maybe wait until Doodles is older. He is still very much a baby. I don't use either until they are 4-5 months old when they are more mature.

[internet_nobody]

Mysteron fathered a litter at 12 weeks, he seemed well aware of what to do ;)

[Mollz]

Hi Just wanted to add that maybe 9 weeks it too young for them to start breeding and maybe wait until Doodles is older. He is still very much a baby. I don't use either until they are 4-5 months old when they are more mature.

Why do you feel this? It's not like it harms the boys like it would harm the girls at this age?

[Spuds Mum]

Dubs was 10 weeks when he first was mated to Princess bless him, and he took a little time to learn the ropes, but was fine and certainly showed willing from the first!

I think as long as he is physically mature enough to mate, sizewise and (you know) bit wise, then it should be fine.

Id suggest upping the amount of vitamin E he gets in the run up - with loads of green veg etc. Its supposed to help! :D

[Mollz]

I think as long as he is physically mature enough to mate, sizewise and (you know) bit wise, then it should be fine.


Oh he's certainly got the bits for it!!! :x

[Spuds Mum]

I think as long as he is physically mature enough to mate, sizewise and (you know) bit wise, then it should be fine.


Oh he's certainly got the bits for it!!! :x

Well I say, let him try and use 'em then! :x If he doesn't have a clue, then you can always wait a week or two and try again :D

[sarahh]

Personally I feel this because they are babies and still too young. Alright they maybe be sexually mature and know what to do but I think its best to wait till they are older. I think they should be babies first afterall you wouldn't expect a child to father a baby.

[Matty Day]

well technically theyd be teenagers at that age and as a male has hardly to do anything ie he dosent have to carry the litter etc its fine.

[Spuds Mum]

Point taken Sarahh, however hamsters have a lifespan of an average of 2 - 2.5 years, as opposed to a humans 70+ years, meaning that they become sexually mature (and that is what we are meaning by mature) much earlier to allow them to carry on the next generation within this shortened lifespan.

I know personally as the mother of a son, that I would not have wanted him to become a father as a teenager (which is more what a 9 week old hamster is than a baby) because of the caring and reponsibilities involved, not because I would think that it would physically harm him at all etc.

It is nature after all, the sexual urge in animals (including humans) is a strong and natural one, and i think it is less of a problem to use a young healthy animal rather than a much older one (I know you didn't refer to this - just using an example) which may put a strain on the animals heart etc.

I don't think we should confuse hamsters and humans in assuming that a younger hamster is not 'mentally mature or prepared for fatherhood' in the way that we would maybe think about younger humans! :D

[Bunsey]

yes i agree that as the father doesn't do anything other than have a good time, it doesn't matter how old he is (within reason!). if he is capable then why not. Oscar was mad for the ladies from around 10 weeks (after he woke up from his 2 week hibination after coming here)

[sarahh]

Seems like I can't get anything right these days. I used to be able to offer adivce but now I just get it picked to pieces.

I think I will just go

[Spuds Mum]

Seems like I can't get anything right these days. I used to be able to offer adivce but now I just get it picked to pieces.

I think I will just go

Im sorry Sarah, I dont think anyone was trying to pick yo to pieces in any way, just I have a different point of view and was trying to explain why I have that view! :shock:

I really apologise if anything I wrote offended you in any way, but have to admit to being a little upset myself now, if you feel that I was in any way rude, agressive or 'picking on you'. Im not sure why you feel you cant get anything right these days? Im sure you make lots of valuable contributions to the forum.

As a moderator, I would obviously take action if i did see anything that appeared to be picking on another member, however, as it seems to be myself that has upset you, I will refer tto the other moderators in this one.

Apologies again, if anything i said made you feel picked on! :(

[sarahh]

Hi Spuds mum. I think maybe we should just forget this and start again. Maybe I slightly over reacted and I apologise for this.

I think maybe we should all agree to disagree on this.

Sarah x

[Spuds Mum]

absolutely Sarahh, if we all thought the same, there would be lots of boring conversations on the forum wouldn't there :wink: :D

[sarahh]

absolutely Sarahh, if we all thought the same, there would be lots of boring conversations on the forum wouldn't there

I agree with you there would be lots of boring ones if we didn't disagree sometimes.

Sarah x

[souffle]

Everyones comments are equally valuable and of interest on the forum so glad you two agree to disagree.
I have just been reading a paper on wild syrians and it would seem that maybe our caged animals mature at an earlier age than their wild cousins. A juvenile of 9 weeks in the wild would only weigh around 40-60g where as a fully mature adult (wild) is around 130g. Perhaps their lifestyle will inhibit sexual development so that the older, successful males will be the ones who mate. The good life with warmth and easy food is likely to encourage early maturity in our animals which will mate as soon as they are able given the chance. They won't have the same problems of searching for a mate and finding food, safe place to live, water etc that wild hammies do either!
Some males have no idea when presented with a female, regardless of what age they are but soon get the idea when pushed into the right position! If you want to give it a try Mollz then the decision is yours. I agree though that, much as we tend to do it, you cannot attribute human emotions to animals. Their bodies will tell them when they are mature enough to mate and if they are they will given the chance

[Basia]

Well my Balou is 8 months old now and the father of one litter after a very hair-raising mating from my point of view. I mated him again last week and he still doesn't have a clue and has to be given a helping hand to find the right end. :oops:
Not at all sure it was a successful mating and think I will now retire him from future paternal duties!
Now Beckham, at 14 weeks, was another story.....

[Holly]

Personally I'm with Sarah and I wouldn't mate a male at 9 weeks (just to throw another spanner in the works!) but for a different reason to you, Sarah.

It's not because I don't think they can manage it or that it would harm them in some way - it's because, at 9 weeks, hamsters are still growing and changing all the time and, with my limited experience of picking out good "show hamsters", I wouldn't be able to say which of my males would be the best one to pass on his genes. I prefer to leave males until they are older and have matured fully, thus knowing what they look like and show like. You obviously don't have that luxury with females.

I've never mated Rolo, for example - as a youngster he was too small and too scrawny for me to consider it - now he's grown up (at 8 months) he's consistently getting placed in LH Satin and, with his super friendly temperament, I definitely have plans for him later on :wink:

I have also read that, with a very young male and an impatient female, you run the risk of them not knowing what to do at all and getting bullied and "put off" in the future. Obviously that's something that you can guard against during the mating and you can remove the male if that looks likely.


Having said all that I wouldn't condemn anyone for mating a younger male, we all weigh up the pros and cons and make our own decisions - obviously a lot of breeders do use younger males, it's down to the individual at the end of the day.

[Matty Day]

as it was a pair of syrains i would say yes

however i would never breed any of my chinese boys just because female chinese tend to behave like drunken pyscopaths and will attack on site even if its her night :x

[Basia]

I am interested in your post, Holly, because whenever I have bred anything I have not worried too much about how the actual parents look, more what bloodlines they are carrying. My best rabbit, for example, came from a doe that most people would have sent to the petshop. He and his siblings were outstanding.
I know it is off topic but does everyone only breed from 'show' hamsters?
I know breeding from a small scrawny males doesn't produce small scrawny babies because I've already done it, Balou is very small and scrawny but has very nice bloodlines and none of Truffles litter were small, quite the opposite.
Actually going back to topic, size is probably more important than age, Balou struggles because he is small and my girls are very large, not because he is too young.

[souffle]

We breed for temperament over everything. I think bloodlines are important too Basia and if you know there are no health problems in your lines then I think you should breed from a male that is going to give you what you are looking for in terms of colour and improve your type if you want to show. Some people are of course restricted in their choice of male by what they have at the time. We bred Nelson who was quite small really but his temperament was outstanding and his children and now I see grand and great grandchilden appear to have inherited this. Everyone needs to learn and make choices and do the best they think they can.
Yup we are drifting off topic...perhaps I will split this later :wink:

[Holly]

Actually going back to topic, size is probably more important than age, Balou struggles because he is small and my girls are very large, not because he is too young.

I think there's a lot in that - I'm trying to breed size into my lines at this stage (which is why I didn't choose to breed Rolo when he was younger) but I guess if I had a HUGE younger male then I'd consider it (as long as type and temperament were ok - all mine are lovely temperament wise so that doesn't really come into my decision making process). The only thing with that is that a huge young male doesn't necessarily translate into a huge adult male (see my Toby who was enormous at 8 weeks but is now just under 190g, quite average for a show ham).

I know breeding from a small scrawny males doesn't produce small scrawny babies because I've already done it, Balou is very small and scrawny but has very nice bloodlines and none of Truffles litter were small, quite the opposite.


That's interesting becaause that contradicts a lot of what I've read in books like Jimmy McKay's etc - I'm guessing that's because you only bred from ONE small parent - Posh being large? Or perhaps because Balou might be small himself but genetically he comes from a line of larger show hams and carries size, I don't know. Wish I did!

[Mollz]

Oh my goodness, I seem to be becoming rather controversial and someone to argue about recently :?

I still, personally, don't see the problem with it - as the others have said it doesn't come with the "responsibility" that having a human baby does. However, some of you objecting hasn't made me feel very good about planning on doing this. My problem is that if I wait until Doodles is what some of you would consider the right age, it will leave me very little leighway with Amelie (or if I do as sarahh says, 4-5 months, she will be too old). I was originally having a stud from Tristar, but on seeing Doodles (and knowing ages etc. and when I was planning on breeding) they said that I should use him instead!

On the side of the fact that you can't tell whether they will be a good shower or not, I too have been told by some of the large (show winning) breeders that it is the genes in the line that counts, and not which ones the hamster actually presents. I have also been advised that because of this it would be a good idea to breed Gizmo (who, for example, has Mackeson in his close background as well as others).

I think I am still going ahead, especially as Tristar advised it and BVH has said it is fine (not that I don't value all of your opinions, it's just that she has been doing it for a long time and is very knowledgable). It also comforts me that some of you have done so at similar ages. But now I feel like I'm a bad person :(

[Basia]

I think I am still going ahead, especially as Tristar advised it and BVH has said it is fine (not that I don't value all of your opinions, it's just that she has been doing it for a long time and is very knowledgable). It also comforts me that some of you have done so at similar ages. But now I feel like I'm a bad person :(
Aw Molz, don't feel like a bad person, this hobby is supposed to be fun. We all make our own decisions about our own hamsters and if Doodles isn't old enough he won't be able to perform (I am sure he will though :wink: )

That's interesting becaause that contradicts a lot of what I've read in books like Jimmy McKay's etc - I'm guessing that's because you only bred from ONE small parent - Posh being large? Or perhaps because Balou might be small himself but genetically he comes from a line of larger show hams and carries size, I don't know. Wish I did!
When I bought Balou his breeder told me his colour was more important than size and Chunky's breeder also told me he will 'carry' size. Truffle is a large lady so she obviously bought size to the partnership, I think I would have been reluctant to breed him to a small girl. Pudding, who I have just mated him with, is my largest girl so I will see whether these babies are also good size.
Beckham was quite small when I mated him with Posh but he was also quite young. He is growing rapidly now. Again the babies are all a good size, especially seeing as there were about 20 babies actually born but again Posh is a very large girl.

[Mollz]

I think I am still going ahead, especially as Tristar advised it and BVH has said it is fine (not that I don't value all of your opinions, it's just that she has been doing it for a long time and is very knowledgable). It also comforts me that some of you have done so at similar ages. But now I feel like I'm a bad person :(
Aw Molz, don't feel like a bad person, this hobby is supposed to be fun. We all make our own decisions about our own hamsters and if Doodles isn't old enough he won't be able to perform (I am sure he will though :wink: )

Thank you Basia. I know in my heart that I'm not doing wrong, but it's horrible knowing that people think you are :( :( Having your support really helps though!

On the note of size vs colour, I'd say Balou's breeder may be right in some sense as colour can get more points than size (although obviously mixtures of the different componants do well).I think we may focus too much on size (and that's me included), instead of the other more important (and higher scoring) factors.

[Bourne Valley Hams]

It is, of course, your decision Mollz.
I myself have used very young males many times over the years, as have most other breeders. It does not appear to have any physical or psychological bad effects on the male, does not stunt his growth or shorten his life. The litters are born with no problems and are of the same size as they would have been with an older male.

[souffle]

I think we may focus too much on size (and that's me included), instead of the other more important (and higher scoring) factors.

I think you are so right there Mollz. 10 points for size, 30 for colour and 30 for type. The thing is a large hamster is a much more striking animal to look at and has more area to display its other attributes I guess.
Don't feel bad Mollz. You asked what everyone thought and opinions were expressed. No one thinks you are bad, they personally would just do things differently. You have weighed up the pros and cons and come to a sensible decision. Go for it now and enjoy your babies. Doodles is already a big boy and I am sure he will do you proud. Don't miss the chance with Amelie. All you can do is try him, if it does not work out then you have Charlie and if that does not work then you can go for the stud male option then.
Good luck with the happy couple when the time comes :lol:

[Noodles]

I don't know anything about breeding so feel free to completely disregard this but for what it's worth...

If I were you Mollz, I really wouldn't worry and certainly don't feel bad. If two of the larger breeders (as well as other people on here who breed very successfully) have said to go ahead then I am sure it's fine. Surely it is better to breed when the mother is in the best possible condition to carry a litter anyway?

And, without meaning to cause any offence to anyone, choosing to breed your Doodles isn't really the same as choosing to breed a hamster of his age but from a petshop - he looks really big and healthy to me so I would have thought he will be fine (I have a petshop hamster and whenever I see pics of all your guys, I end up feeling like she is really small!!!!!) and you are obviously very careful and caring so will be able to tell if there are any problems and take him away.

Although please tell Amelie not to have any rex babies because I really want one but my very mean boyfriend is being very unreasonable and says No!!! :lol: so you need to save me from temptation!!!

Oh btw - saw your ad on freeads - lovely pics- it cheered me up after seeing all those terrible posts trying to give their poor animals away for stupid reasons!!

[Mollz]

It is, of course, your decision Mollz.
I myself have used very young males many times over the years, as have most other breeders. It does not appear to have any physical or psychological bad effects on the male, does not stunt his growth or shorten his life. The litters are born with no problems and are of the same size as they would have been with an older male.

Thanks Sue, I was hoping you had done it before and seen no ill effects!

Also, thanks to Souffle and Noodles (I'm hoping for a few rex babies, although it is just a very small chance so you will probably be ok there Noodles :wink: btw that ad has found two very lovely homes + thanks for the compliment). We are all very excited here and all of the boys seem anxious when Amelie is on heat like "which one of us will it be?!"

[Holly]

However, some of you objecting hasn't made me feel very good about planning on doing this.

You must go with what you think, Mollz - you will never get everyone to agree with everything you do in this life. I was just stating some of my reasons for (generaly) not mating very young males - at the end of the day I'm a very inexperienced breeder and I go with my gut feelings as, I'm sure, will you.

I was under the impression that, when you started this thread, you were asking for people's opinions - I always feel comfortable enough to express mine here, even if they go against the general consensus - not that I'm saying you shouldn't mate a 9 week old, I'm just stating some of the reasons I might not! In your situation I think I'd be considering it for sure - with Amelie being the right age only for the next couple of months you've not got a lot of leeway really time-wise.

On the side of the fact that you can't tell whether they will be a good shower or not, I too have been told by some of the large (show winning) breeders that it is the genes in the line that counts, and not which ones the hamster actually presents.

That sort of contradicts what Pete was saying on Saturday when he looked at my babies. Before he saw them I told him that the Smarterones had the better pedigree on paper - he said that's irrelevent a lot of the time!!!!! I wasn't quite sure what to make of that :P

I have a feeling there's an awful lot of personal opinion in this hamster breeding business!

[Mollz]

However, some of you objecting hasn't made me feel very good about planning on doing this.

You must go with what you think, Mollz - you will never get everyone to agree with everything you do in this life. I was just stating some of my reasons for (generaly) not mating very young males - at the end of the day I'm a very inexperienced breeder and I go with my gut feelings as, I'm sure, will you.

I was under the impression that, when you started this thread, you were asking for people's opinions - I always feel comfortable enough to express mine here, even if they go against the general consensus - not that I'm saying you shouldn't mate a 9 week old, I'm just stating some of the reasons I might not! In your situation I think I'd be considering it for sure - with Amelie being the right age only for the next couple of months you've not got a lot of leeway really time-wise.

No, I asked for opinions and I really did want them!! I wouldn't have even thought about using Doodles at this point if Jean (Tristar) hadn't suggested it, as I wouldn't have thought he would be capable (just that it was a fluke when younger babies end up getting pregnant before separation), that's why I was so unsure.
I was just concerned after hearing what some people thought, and worried about whether I was doing the right thing and whether it would be said that I was doing it irresponsibly. I know you weren't saying that I shouldn't do it, but because I want people to express their opinions and value everyone's opinions I like to take their concerns into account too. Please don't feel like you can't express your opinons - it's what I love about it here, you always get honest replies.

That sort of contradicts what Pete was saying on Saturday when he looked at my babies. Before he saw them I told him that the Smarterones had the better pedigree on paper - he said that's irrelevent a lot of the time!!!!! I wasn't quite sure what to make of that

That's really interesting, I knew different breeders felt differently and thought different things were better - but I didn't know it varied that much! So did he think the Martesers were better in the fur?

[Mollz Mum]

Hi, just wanted to say thank you to everyone for their very different opinions - it was what we were looking for.

We are obviously very very new to all of this and look to our forum friends for help, advice and support, which we very gratefully receive.

Mollz is a very sensitive teenager, she wears her heart on her sleeve and worries constantly about other people's opinion of her, especially all of you on here, who she feels very close to and admires and likes incredibly. Her worst nightmare, as has been proved recently, is to upset and offend any of you!

But please, please continue to give all of your diverse opinions, it is how all of us learn about these things (not just the original poster) - it is what Mollz was looking for and she very firmly believes that everyone in life is entitled to have and express their own opinion on things (it's one of her soap box "things") - she just worries if even only one person thinks what she is planning is wrong! This forum is a wonderful place and would be a very sad and bland place, as Souffle and Holly says, if we all ageed on everything and didn't discuss things openly.

All opinions welcome and requested on all topics.
Thanks again.

[Bunsey]

wow, some very interesting points here. i'd never thought about the thing of not benig able to tell a good show ham at 9 weeks. altough, Oscar was clearly breedable at just 8 weeks! he hasn't grown at all since then as he was already gianormous! he is still the biggest ham we have by far. I could also tell his type was good by looking at his face. most hams aren't that big at 8 weeks though. Ruby is nothing like full grown yet.

Although i haven't yet bred, i would go on type and colour. I think that any ham from good bloodlines is gonna be large enough so i've not thought about that.

Harvey's not large, nothig like the size of Oscar, but he got 75 points at the one show i entered him in, where Oscar got 72.5 with the same judge. my reason for wanting to breed Harvey was 1) his temprament and 2) his deep rich colour. i'm gutted about it, i really am. :cry:

[Holly]

That's really interesting, I knew different breeders felt differently and thought different things were better - but I didn't know it varied that much! So did he think the Martesers were better in the fur?

No, that was before they saw them! Interestingly enough (and good for my hamster choosing ego!) the ones they liked the best seemed to be the same babies I'd already picked out as show possibilities - both Creams and one of the Sables in Smartie's litter and the Creams, one of the Sables and one of the Sable Roans in Molly's.

Mollz is a very sensitive teenager, she wears her heart on her sleeve and worries constantly about other people's opinion of her, especially all of you on here, who she feels very close to and admires and likes incredibly. Her worst nightmare, as has been proved recently, is to upset and offend any of you!


Stop worrying about that, Mollz - you are doing wonders on the hamsters front and have as valid an opinion as anyone else (and if you are worrying about anything ebay related DON'T :P ).

I always quite like it when someone doesn't agree with me - it's like playing devil's advocate and it makes me think about what I'm doing and whether it's as right for me as I thought it was!

[Mollz]

Harvey's not large, nothig like the size of Oscar, but he got 75 points at the one show i entered him in, where Oscar got 72.5 with the same judge. my reason for wanting to breed Harvey was 1) his temprament and 2) his deep rich colour. i'm gutted about it, i really am. :cry:

Oh Bunsey, I'm so sorry about Harvey :(

I do think the points you made there are right though, it does seem to be type and colour that can make the difference.

[Mollz Mum]

I always quite like it when someone doesn't agree with me - it's like playing devil's advocate and it makes me think about what I'm doing and whether it's as right for me as I thought it was!

Yes, me too Holly, I think it's what debating is all about! It's great that the hammies you chose to keep look like they have good potential. Well done you!

Harvey's not large, nothig like the size of Oscar, but he got 75 points at the one show i entered him in, where Oscar got 72.5 with the same judge. my reason for wanting to breed Harvey was 1) his temprament and 2) his deep rich colour. i'm gutted about it, i really am.
Oh Bunsey, that's really sad, I'm so sorry!