What. A mean thing To do to hamsters

[mmmim256]

In class today, I learned that scientists take pregnant hamsters and give them alcohol to see if the babies will have birth defect.......

[GemmasMom]

They do to a lot of rodents.... because their lives are similar to that of humans, but shorter. For example, when they get cancer, they get it a lot faster, which speeds up research. I have mixed feelings on this. I love my little furries but I also think that sometimes testing on animals saves human lives. I think that it should only be done with the highest amount of discretion..... because it could be MY little girls and that breaks my heart thinking about it... :/

[purple_x]

Makes me sick.
There is no place in this world for animal testing.
They can grow cells and whatnot in labs so why the heck dont they just test on things they've grown!

I feel so sorry for the animals cooped up in tiny cages their whole lives, tested on, left in pain a lot of the time and then killed in a horrendous way.

[GhostsInSnow]

Makes me sick.
There is no place in this world for animal testing.
They can grow cells and whatnot in labs so why the heck dont they just test on things they've grown!

I feel so sorry for the animals cooped up in tiny cages their whole lives, tested on, left in pain a lot of the time and then killed in a horrendous way.

I agree. I know it's not hammie related but when one of my mousies got respiratory infection last year I felt awful and thought it was something I was doing (even though I was doing everything right, good food, safe bedding, regular clean out) and then one this year got it so I did a ton of research into it and came across a report. It said that mice who show signs of it at around 10-12 weeks have a defective gene that causes it. Scientists either bred the defective gene into them or did something that caused it to happen in most mice (I can't properly remember it was ages ago) and now a good percentage of domestic mice have the gene. It takes breeders a lot of work to breed the gene out of them.
It's not fair because it's not even necessarily the animals tested on there and then that suffer but it can be the majority of a whole species that suffers. I really do hate animal testing :(

[cathface]

I agree. I know it's not hammie related but when one of my mousies got respiratory infection last year I felt awful and thought it was something I was doing (even though I was doing everything right, good food, safe bedding, regular clean out) and then one this year got it so I did a ton of research into it and came across a report. It said that mice who show signs of it at around 10-12 weeks have a defective gene that causes it. Scientists either bred the defective gene into them or did something that caused it to happen in most mice (I can't properly remember it was ages ago) and now a good percentage of domestic mice have the gene. It takes breeders a lot of work to breed the gene out of them.
It's not fair because it's not even necessarily the animals tested on there and then that suffer but it can be the majority of a whole species that suffers. I really do hate animal testing :(

pretty sure the animals used in animal testing does not reach domestic households or breeders. I'm kind of confused by this because well, why would they sell their deformed/genetically defective mice into the public domain and why would anyone in the public domain buy them, knowing full well they were used for scientific experiments (if you're buying from a 'medical facility' then you cannot feign ignorance that "you didn't know they were used for testing" etc etc). I just don't understand how these defective genes could have found their way into breeders' stock. I mean yeah okay maybe rodent farms would buy them off medical facilities for cheap (though I doubt medical facilities are allowed to do that, some probably still do on the sly) to start up shop, but that still doesn't explain why breeders would have had to "breed the gene out of them"?? I'm not debating animal testing or whatever, I genuinely just... can't get my head around this.

[de4life]

All arguments for animal testing rely on the logic that human life is more valuable than an animal's life. There is no other way to justify it.

I personally don't hold that belief and so don't support animal testing. Humans may be the most intelligent species, but intelligence is not a measure of a creature's worth. You only have to look at what humans have done to the planet and what they regularly do to each other to see intelligence has largely increased cynicism, sadism and cruelty. The human race as a whole has little to be proud of outside of mastering self-preservation and increasing our pleasure at the expense of everything around us.

[The Hamster's family]

All arguments for animal testing rely on the logic that human life is more valuable than an animal's life. There is no other way to justify it.

I personally don't hold that belief and so don't support animal testing. Humans may be the most intelligent species, but intelligence is not a measure of a creature's worth. You only have to look at what humans have done to the planet and what they regularly do to each other to see intelligence has largely increased cynicism, sadism and cruelty. The human race as a whole has little to be proud of outside of mastering self-preservation and increasing our pleasure at the expense of everything around us.

... I love you...

[danni02]

unfortunetly there are a lot of things that cant be tested on a bunch of grown cells. until cells can show things such as side effects to medication there will always be testing on animals

[cathface]

Makes me sick.
There is no place in this world for animal testing.
They can grow cells and whatnot in labs so why the heck dont they just test on things they've grown!

I feel so sorry for the animals cooped up in tiny cages their whole lives, tested on, left in pain a lot of the time and then killed in a horrendous way.

just coming back to this, out of curiosity, what do you make of lab-grown rodents? as in ones they 'create' from stem cells or whatever, which turn into complete mice/rats/hamsters, and then later use to test on.

[annie81]

It's not as easy as growing some cells and do tests on these cells. Scientists have to study the effect of medication on a whole living system and not just a couple of cells. They often use mice because they are quite similar to the human system. I do not agree with animal testing for beauty products and things like that. But I have to say that animal testing is very important in the medical sector. Besides, after the animal testing trials they do thr same on human volunteers. I do think though that those animals still deserve to be treated nicely which isn't the case often.

My sister used to work in cancer treatment research and she had to do animal testing. My sister loves animals btw. She once brought home 4 cute little mice they didn't need and I know the research centers and hospitals actually do that a lot. Even though that is probably how animals with genetic defects are reproduced and gives breeders are hard time getting these defects out again I still believe it's better to give the animals away so that they can have a nice life rather than just killing them. People who take on these animals shouldn't breed them. What the hospitals/ research centers maybe should do is maybe spay them.

I have to say though that testing the effect of alcohol on unborn pups is uncalled for. I think everybody knows that you shouldn't drink when pregnant :-/

[Cupcake]

While I completely agree with everything that has been said by HC members and I am against animal testing. I can't help but wonder how the world would be now if all cures/medications that have occurred due to animal testing would've never happened? Would any of you give up hope of curing a loved one because the medication needs to be tested for side effects on an animal? I'm just curious.
And please do not get me wrong, I'm a huge animal lover, but I love my family as well. I'm not stating anything here I'm merely asking for opinion so no bashing please.

[mangoandmimi]

.. You'd think it's pretty obvious the babies won't be the healthiest of pups given alcohol before they're even born. That kind of experiment is absurd in my mind, I mean I'm against all animal testing but at least testing for medicines and cures has a point to it. This, is just.... yeah :(

[Cupcake]

That is pretty dumb, I mean wouldn't it be easier if they tested a considerable sample of infants from mothers known to have consumed alcohol or medication/drugs during their pregnancy? That seems pretty logical to me :rolleyes:

[obscura]

They do to a lot of rodents.... because their lives are similar to that of humans, but shorter. For example, when they get cancer, they get it a lot faster, which speeds up research. I have mixed feelings on this. I love my little furries but I also think that sometimes testing on animals saves human lives. I think that it should only be done with the highest amount of discretion..... because it could be MY little girls and that breaks my heart thinking about it... :/

I used to have mixed feelings, because I have an immense love for rats and dwarf hamsters... But we have been able to accomplish amazing things thanks to the lives of these animals. I believe that a lot of times these test subjects are born and raised under monitored conditions. I remember seeing a documentary on mice, and they said the mice would die if removed from the environment and taken outside because their immune system was not built up against certain things. They breed them specifically for their research.

The same way cows are raised to put meat on the table.

They can grow cells and whatnot in labs so why the heck don't they just test on things they've grown!

They sorta do grow them... By breeding them in their labs. Those animals would not survive if given to a family because they were born and raised in very strict environments (without germs and infections that would normally help build up the immune system). Generation after generation of this... They would die more gruesome deaths if taken out of the lab environment.

The people who do research and studies from these animals don't take joy in "killing" the animals. I have a sort of respect (for lack of a better word) for lab animals. You have to understand they would not be able to live if taken out of the lab and put in a pet environment or natural environment.

Pretty sure the animals used in animal testing does not reach domestic households or breeders.

This is very true. They don't make it outside of the lab, and the individuals who research them and breed them for their studies do not take them out of their controlled environments.

It said that mice who show signs of it at around 10-12 weeks have a defective gene that causes it. Scientists either bred the defective gene into them or did something that caused it to happen in most mice (I can't properly remember it was ages ago) and now a good percentage of domestic mice have the gene. It takes breeders a lot of work to breed the gene out of them.

I don't agree with this. Breeders can produce genetic defects in their litters, as well... A breeder who doesn't know what they are doing can continue breeding that defect through the lines and spread it by letting babies who carry the defect leave their facility...

Usually a lab environment is controlled.

Even recently an incident occurred where a potential STD in Syrian hamsters was imported to the US from a breeder's stock. The issue did not appear until several months later. You wouldn't have ever known something like this was sitting dormant in the animal until it showed itself. You can't blame scientists or breeders for that.

If it becomes an issue, researchers will need to study animals affected in order to come up with a possible cure or something, since it has been unknown until recently.

All arguments for animal testing rely on the logic that human life is more valuable than an animal's life. There is no other way to justify it.

This is not true. Animal testing is not done because a human's life is more important than that of an animal's life. Animal testing has also benefited the animals. How do you think veterinarians have been able to come up with medicine and procedures to care for our animals? By testing on them...

It's not as easy as growing some cells and do tests on these cells. Scientists have to study the effect of medication on a whole living system and not just a couple of cells. They often use mice because they are quite similar to the human system. I do not agree with animal testing for beauty products and things like that. But I have to say that animal testing is very important in the medical sector.

I agree. I'm against animal testing for beauty products, but where medical research comes into play... it is important for both humans and animals. For some researchers it may be about preserving our own species, but there are researchers out there who have a stronger belief that they are making a difference not just for the human race but for animals, too... We would have never been able to help our animals without testing on them. There would be no medicine to ease their pain, or fix any problems they might have... Like the monthly tablets I feed my dogs to keep them from getting heartworm (which they can get just by drinking a little bit of rain water from the curb - and if you don't know anything about heartworm, it's expensive to treat and eventually will kill your dog). We wouldn't have medicine to help rat's with their upper respiratory infections, or dwarf hamsters with glaucoma...

That kind of experiment is absurd in my mind, I mean I'm against all animal testing but at least testing for medicines and cures has a point to it.

I'm sure there was an explanation. Researchers don't just inject alcohol into unborn babies or pregnant animals just for the fun of it...

I mean wouldn't it be easier if they tested a considerable sample of infants from mothers known to have consumed alcohol or medication/drugs during their pregnancy? That seems pretty logical to me.

Sounds logical enough, except you have to be in good health to volunteer for such tests. Most mothers aren't going to let their newborn baby be taken away for lab tests. And a lot of mothers who are drinking alcohol while pregnant are likely to be unhealthy (obviously their brain doesn't function right, or they'd have to be on drugs to be so stupid that they drink alcohol while pregnant).

With the rodents, they are able to raise them in a controlled environment and know every single thing there is to know about their health and genetic make up. Making the research more effective.

[de4life]

This is not true. Animal testing is not done because a human's life is more important than that of an animal's life. Animal testing has also benefited the animals. How do you think veterinarians have been able to come up with medicine and procedures to care for our animals? By testing on them...

Would it be OK to do experiments on non-consenting humans if it benefited other humans, then? That is essentially what's happening to animals being tested. They may not have the capacity to make a decision one way or the other, but neither would a mentally disabled person and I don't think we would agree it's okay to test on them.

Benefits aren't so relevant to me, it's the ethics of animal testing which bugs me. "The ends justify the means" doesn't work for me as a justification.

The fact these animals are raised to be experimented on is even more gruesome, really. What a tragic life to lead.

[obscura]

The fact these animals are raised to be experimented on is even more gruesome, really. What a tragic life to lead.

Are you a vegetarian as well? I eat steak... and they raise bison, rabbit, and boar so that my dogs can eat, too.

[de4life]

I am indeed a vegetarian, but animal consumption is a completely different debate with its own unique set of ethical dilemmas.

[obscura]

I am indeed a vegetarian, but animal consumption is a completely different debate with its own unique set of ethical dilemmas.

Is it really all that different? People raise the animals just to kill them and process their meat. At least in the wild, they are given opportunity. We don't stop to ask if the livestock mind that we kill them to feed other people and animals.

It sounds like it fits well towards your argument:

"Would it be OK to do experiments on non-consenting humans if it benefited other humans, then? That is essentially what's happening to animals being tested. They may not have the capacity to make a decision one way or the other, but neither would a mentally disabled person and I don't think we would agree it's okay to test on them."

And for the record, if I was a disabled person, I wouldn't mind being tested on if it meant they could find ways to increase the quality of life for other disabled people in the future...

It all comes down on personal opinion.

[strawberrysmom]

Are you a vegetarian as well? I eat steak... and they raise bison, rabbit, and boar so that my dogs can eat, too.

Everything you are saying is my belief. No point even writing it out. Your rebuttals and all are on the mark as far as I'm concerned.

I hate to be insensitive but I'd hate to argue this logic with a polar bear if he could talk ...standing between it and a seal.

As much as I love animals I believe in biology and I believe in science. I think much of the testing is disgusting - beauty products and such. But I watched my father die in front of my eyes from cancer. He had too many years left to live. If testing on animals will find a cure for it one day so no one has to watch their loved ones - parents, children, etc die from a painful disease then I cannot be against it.

If one is against it then they should refuse to ever put medication in their mouths. Walk into a hospital. and so on. It's very difficult to be against something and yet partake in the fruits of the animals' sacrifice.

[annie81]

de4life: Do you use beauty products, have you taken medication in your life? If you or your children become seriously ill will you take medication that has been tested on animals? Because if you argue like that you really shouldn't. Don't get me wrong, I understand where you are coming from but I am pretty sure you would take whatever it needs to help yourself and your family.

[obscura]

I hate to be insensitive but I'd hate to argue this logic with a polar bear if he could talk ...standing between it and a seal.

As much as I love animals I believe in biology and I believe in science. I think much of the testing is disgusting - beauty products and such. But I watched my father die in front of my eyes from cancer. He had too many years left to live. If testing on animals will find a cure for it one day so no one has to watch their loved ones - parents, children, etc die from a painful disease then I cannot be against it.

If one is against it then they should refuse to ever put medication in their mouths. Walk into a hospital. and so on. It's very difficult to be against something and yet partake in the fruits of the animals' sacrifice.

I'm sorry to hear about your dad. My cousin is actually the market development director for The American Cancer Society. She strongly hopes to make a difference.

I agree, especially with your final statement. If there is a person who is completely against animal testing, they had better find some natural remedies that work...

[cathface]

I agree with obscura entirely, as well as strawberrysmom. if one is so against animal testing for medical reasons then why not take the stance taken by some vegetarians against the way meat is raised to be slaughtered? avoid it for what it stands for. a 'medicine-tarian', if you will.

[obscura]

de4life: Do you use beauty products?

I agree with you, but I do want to point out that not all beauty products are tested on animals! xD

I'm not trying to target de4life. I respect his opinion, but I am also strongly opinionated on the subject. We are merely sharing our strong opinions, and there is nothing wrong with that at all! :)

Honestly, while I am supportive of medical research, I believe that all of our medical accomplishments are not exactly the best thing for our planet. We are overpopulated, living longer, and running out of resources. It's a good thing science can help us find more resources... but what happens when there are just way too many people on the planet?

Haha, sorry, that's turning this conversation inside out! ;)

[strawberrysmom]

Yeah, it's starting to look like we've targeted one person and that makes me feel sick. Ugh. It wasn't my intention to respond in that way but it certainly looks that way. I swear my comment was completely toward the entire thread - everyone on there. Not one particular person!

[annie81]

I am not trying to target anybody either...I just want to point out that it isn't just about being against animal testing.

Of course, not all beauty products are tested on animals....but a lot of them are and if you don't pay attention you will probably end up with ones that were actually tested on animals. I just wanted to make a general point.

[strawberrysmom]

I am not trying to target anybody either...I just want to point out that it isn't just about being against animal testing.

Of course, not all beauty products are tested on animals....but a lot of them are and if you don't pay attention you will probably end up with ones that were actually tested on animals. I just wanted to make a general point.


Oh, I know! And very good point. I try to get beauty products that aren't but I'm sure more often than not stuff slips in that I didn't even think about checking into! Shampoos, etc

[obscura]

Yeah, it's starting to look like we've targeted one person and that makes me feel sick. Ugh. It wasn't my intention to respond in that way but it certainly looks that way. I swear my comment was completely toward the entire thread - everyone on there. Not one particular person!

In the United States, we have freedom of speech. Meaning we can voice our opinions. That is simply what de4life and I are doing in regards to your subject. Don't be too worried. We aren't hostile or anything! That's just what happens when people are passionate about their beliefs. ;)

I just wanted to make a general point.

I totally understand. It's a good idea to check the labels on every product you purchase! It's so easy to forget to do it, though, but a good habit to get into!

[de4life]

I don't really want to get into conflict with any of you, and nor do I feel I need to discuss my personal life in terms of my eating habits or decisions I make when buying products to justify my stance on animal testing. All I will say is I'm comfortable that the decisions I make in both senses justify my ethical stance.

BBC - Ethics: Animal ethics (http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/animals/)

I think this section of the BBC website gives a good case to both sides of the argument. I do not think a person can condone animal testing without conceding they value human life over animal life, or at the very least consider humans superior to animals - HOWEVER - I'm not saying it's wrong to believe that. It's all personal opinion, and mine isn't quite the same.

[annie81]

We don't want to get in conflict either and you don't have to defend your point of view at all. And I am sorry if my post made you feel like that. I think I can say that everybody here on this forum loves animals and this topic is therefore very difficult and sensitive

[de4life]

I probably came across as a little hostile as well, so it's fine :) it's a subject I have a strong opinion on, as do others. There's nothing wrong with that. I like debating on other forums because I can attack if needed and be cold in my responses, but I don't want to do that on here. I try to stay friendly on here at all times :)

[strawberrysmom]

In the United States, we have freedom of speech. Meaning we can voice our opinions. That is simply what de4life and I are doing in regards to your subject. Don't be too worried. We aren't hostile or anything! That's just what happens when people are passionate about their beliefs. ;)



I totally understand. It's a good idea to check the labels on every product you purchase! It's so easy to forget to do it, though, but a good habit to get into!



I'm in the U.S too (Maryland) and boy do I know - we love our opinions - we Americans. haha. We love to sound off full throttle. Known for it around the world that is for sure.

[AngelAmes]

I know I have come into the thread very late but i just want to say that I have read this through and I really love the debate.

I am not against animal testing for medicine (I am studying biochemistry and one of my modules is currently on the use of animals as model organisms) but I will not use make up products that have been tested on animals.

It is all personal opinion and i really love my animals and don't want any harm done to them at all.

[cathface]

same, AngelAmes. I love reading everyone's views and their reasons for it... I was actually scared the mods would close and move the thread because it's not a topic that's all happy-happy where everyone agrees and 'let's look at all the happy hamster pictures!'

[Pompompoms]

Lol, that's not the way we work with thread closing/moving ;)

No rules are being broken at all, no reason to move the thread ;)

[cathface]

Lol, that's not the way we work with thread closing/moving ;)

No rules are being broken at all, no reason to move the thread ;)

no I just remember some threads in the past getting moved because they weren't "appropriate" for the forum... something about if we want to debate we should go to a debating forum or something lol. so I was just a bit worried this would go the same way! glad this is not the case though. :)

[mmmim256]

same, AngelAmes. I love reading everyone's views and their reasons for it... I was actually scared the mods would close and move the thread because it's not a topic that's all happy-happy where everyone agrees and 'let's look at all the happy hamster pictures!'

Yeah I agree with you on that. I wanted to see what people thought about this topic cuz I thought that's a cruel way to find out what causes a birth defect to a rodent and infer that on humans

[obscura]

no I just remember some threads in the past getting moved because they weren't "appropriate" for the forum... something about if we want to debate we should go to a debating forum or something lol. so I was just a bit worried this would go the same way! glad this is not the case though. :)

Certainly glad that didn't happen! I understand that sometimes things can get out of hand, but I found this discussion rather interesting. I could relate to everyone's opinions, but still believe in my own. I can understand why threads would be moved due to debating - some people can get their feelings hurt and start fighting on the forums, which no moderator wishes to deal with. I think this topic remained pretty professional... Though I was a little sarcastic about eating steak LOL! In all seriousness, vegetarians are strong people. I couldn't do it. :(

[Pouches]

This is an awesome thread! And what's even better is that it touches on a few topics that seem to be able to spark conversations when nothing else can.
While I don't agree with "John Smith" who decides to play Frankenstein in his back yard "lab" I do feel that some things need specific host testing. There has been a lot of advances in the medical field thanks to the countless lives that have been given to scientific and forensic testing which has undoubtedly made countless lives longer and the quality of life better.
The way I look at animals that are born to be used to test on or slaughtered is that, they know no different. If you must, they were destined to do it.
While some people may disagree with the methods and no matter how humane and how well one of those animals lives, you will still have people referring to it as inhumanity and barbarism.
Same with some people who chose to be vegan or vegetarian, I have had people condemn me for "being a consumer of dead animals" and the easiest way to end that conversation is to ask why. If human beings diets were meant to be meat free would we have 4 canine teeth?
It all boils down to individual persons opinions, and standpoint.Would I ever think about eating a cow that I raised, absolutely not. Do I have qualms about going to the grocery and buying a giant t-bone, grilling it up and eating it? Absolutely not! Would I donate my hamster pups to someone who may just probe around and not really have a reason to experiment, probably not. Would I donate a hamster knowing that there was a possibility that it could help perfect a cure for cancer, absolutely!
Everything can be a double edged sword if you try to find negatives and set out to prove that the benefits do not outweigh the risks. But we as humans are an inquisitive species, we are not content with just accepting that cancer kills, we are almost compelled to know why/how it does, and more importantly how to stop it..
To put it simply