Very angry and anxious!

[PezPus]

Oh my stomack is all twisted i am sooo angry and frantic and sad and in pieces, I wished of this sort of thing never to happen to me but it did and now i dont know if i dare to let any of Breksje's pups go when they are born :(

This is what happened:

I got a rather polite and friendly E-mail this morning from a guy wanting to be put on the list for bying a couple of baby rats from me.
I am very, very controlling and strict about who I sell the babies to , so I have a list of questions about cage, substrate, income and much more which I think is important to know and make me comfotable selling. When the litter is born I will go over that list very thoroughly to see if I think any of the people on the list are good enough for my baby rats.
He was reluctent to answer my questions, could not se why i bothered he said, So I told him that i used 12000,- NKR (thats about 1300 GBP) to get the very good female Breksje from a highly known and good breeder , I flew to get her, and because of her good lines and because I want to have controll of my line i told him it was important to me that i sold to responsible and serious people which i absolutely trust will keep the rats safe and give them what they need and a bit more. After all we have the goal to be as serious and responsible breeders as possible ourself. Then he replyed "well you should not bother with me, im just gona use them as reptile food"! My heart just dropped! My stomack have been knotted ever since and i feel that i just cant sell any of the pups :( i just dont trust people to keep them safe, i seriously thought about putting him on the list because of hes very nice and serious first mail, but now i am just blown away and feel very anxious :( Am i just being stupid and over loving about Breksjes pups ? or should i keep them all ?

I have sat a number of 4 to be kept eather way but maybe i should just keep them all ? even tho it mught be over 10 ?

[mainamanda]

I think that you are doing the responsible thing in screening buyers. Stick to your principles. If your prices were higher you might attract more conscientious buyers.

[Amethyst_ice]

Sadly there will always be people looking for cheap, live ratties for reptile food. I belive in many countries the feeding of live mammals is prohibited.

The big check list is good, I have had to fill one out with a breeder that didn't know me personally.

What I would suggest is that any potential owners have references from any other breeders they have got from, show or even bring cage...or if they are local to you visit their home.

I would get them to sign a contract stating that they are sold as pets only. If you heard wind they had gone to be as food you would have a legal case against them.

But sadly it just comes to your own judgement.

A "true" owner will usually be asking lots of questions and be excited in my experience x

[PezPus]

Thanks for the replies, im still very anxious but this helps ^_^

I cant take more money for them, they are quite expensive as rats go already, i take 35 gbp for one and 55 gbp for two, I only sell one if they have a rat at home which the pup can live with and even then i prefer to sell in pairs so i even give a little discount when taking two.

I am ringing the local animal cruelty organisation tomorrow and will report the guy for keeping reptiles, reptiles and live feeding is not allowed in Norway.

We already have a very thorough contract , which buyers must sign on, and we only sell to people over 18 years old so the contract will be binding... It sais in the contract and my website that we dont sell any animals for feeding reptiles or breeding reptile food with, all animals we sell are pets.

I just feel realy uneasy about selling the pups now, and they havent even been born yet, i cant imagine how i feel when they are 5 weeks and ready for new homes...

I will get a much more strict system now, beside the long question list they HAVE to call me and talk to me before buying, and i want to come on a house visit before selling and after ^_^

Thank you again for exelent replies, feel a bit better now but still abit anxious bout the selling bit :p

[PezPus]

Ok, now you might think i am a very mean and evil person, but i emailed the guy back after the horrible post i got from him (before posting here) and said that he has 24 hours to turn in that "pet" of his or i will, i got his adress, phone number and everything so they will know exactly which door to knock on to get him. Now I just got a email from him beggin me to relax and dont report him xD Oh my that felt good, suddenly it seems I have the power ;) moahahaha!!!

Will deffo report him ^_^

[Amethyst_ice]

Just be care, all reportign i would keep annonymous.

Babies shouldnt go to homes until at least 7 weeks hun, gives them time to get bulked up and if babies going to adult groups 8 weeks :) 5 too young.

You do charge alot, wow! My most expensive has been £30 for a pair from one of our registered breeders!

It is all part of beign a breeder, you always worry. My breeders have it in the contract i have to give 6 monthly updates..but of course they get weekly :) x

[PezPus]

Thanks for the reply!

No, its not to young we sell rat babies at 5 weeks, its always done like that here in Norway... I got all my breeder rats at 5 weeks, Thats when they are ready to leave their mom according to everyone here. Sure you are thinking of rats and not hammies ? : )

That is what i paid for almost all my rats from breeders, that is what they go for here from breeders, and some even take double of what i take, I payed 60gbp for breksje alone because of her amazing lines ^_^

[Amethyst_ice]

No, ive been keeping and showing rats a few years now..every breeder ive met will hold onto their babies longer than 5 weeks. :(

[PezPus]

wow, that is really disturbing actually :S maybe all of the breeders in Norway are wrong then ?

I made a thread about it in Norways fancyrat clubs breeding section, it is where us breeders talk comfortably without the general publics interferance ^_^

If they cant give me a really good answer to why the pups should be sold at 5 weeks, i will keep them a coupple of weeks extra. Seems likely that you have gotten a couple of steps before us on this matter :D

[Amethyst_ice]

well every club does things differently, but seeing kits at 5 weeks and usually how tiny they are..my last kit I got him at 8 weeks and he still struggles with my older bigger lads. It gives more time for socialisation and bulkign them up with the protein. I really struggled with my new lad to get him to eat his extra protein, he would only eat with my group and of course high protein to adults isnt good so i think letting them stay with the litter benefits all.

i think the youngest my breeder allows is 6 weeks but only to those experienced and the average 7 :) every day makes a difference in the first few months :) x

btw: what are you expecting from this litter?

[PezPus]

yeah, there are huge diferenses in how diferent breeders do things.

We try to aim for healty long lived rats, we dont care so much about color and such, ofc we stay clear of those who are lethal and can cause open spine or megacolon but that is the pearl gene and dominant spot gene which we dont have in so many rats here :)

It seems better for the pups to stay abit longer with us, they will be put on a special type of rat food when they start eating, and moma is on it now, its called RM3 and it is a SUPER food, high in protein for growing and nursing rats ^_^


We are expecting :
Black og agouti +
-Blue if Breksje carries this
-Russian Blue / Russian Blue Agouti if Marco carries this.
-siamese if Marco carries himalaya, himalaya if he carries albino
-possible surpises like dumbo and burmese.

Because of Marco is from a litter with little known info, we are taking a risk in using him, BUT he is a lovely rat, never had any problems with him and he mated with her at an age of 2,5 years, and got it on the first try so me and all of the other breeders in my clubb are confident in that he will make a good start male for my line :D

Breksje is on day 21 of her pregnancy now, so the birth is right around the corner :D

[p_anda]

What I don't understand is why that guy was so intent to spend that much money on reptile food...you can buy frozen rats for pennies. Some people :p Not just that, it's an insult to try and acquire a finely bred animal just so you can feed it to another animal...if he wanted reptile food, he should've been honest about it. Not sure about Norway, but in the UK many show [not pet] breeders sell culled pinkies/fuzzies of rats and mice as reptile food. But it's still cheaper to go to a feeder breeder not to mention more convenient.

[PezPus]

yeah I was really angry about him trying to buy my pups for feeding his reptile -__-
I absolutely hate when people are lying to me, it is so disrespectful...

In my area I am the only rat breeder, they have stopped taking in at the petstores because they get sick there and have big issues with agression. So i guess he saw me as a golden oportunety for his animal to get some food :( I get so disgusted about the thought...

We have a policy stating that we never will cull any of our pups, it is quite dumb I think to cull because of colors or ears or any other reason other than if the pup is damaged or sick in some way that it is beyond rescue. We love all our pups :D

[HorseyMandz]

Are you sure he wasn't making a sick joke?
He could have been really annnoyed at being asked all those questions...

[PezPus]

yeah I am positive! I thought also it might be a joke but ive rung him today, and it seems he has a iguana he wanted to feed rats to. Ive told him that i will call the proper autorites, i dont want any other to incounter this guy on his quest for iguana food.

Breksje got her pups now btw :D she got them while I was asleep ^_^

[karinanlyla]

awww I bet your so happy shes had the pups :)
Just take comfort in the fact that your process meant that you found out what he was buying them for!
TBH I'm a bit shocked that reptiles are illegal in Norway! I thought anyone could have a reptile but I guess that shows how uninformed I am about places other than the UK!
Happy he didnt get any of your pups. He doesnt sound very responsible anyway, having an iguana but having nowhere to buy food for him due to it being illegal must be horrible for the iguana. I hope the iguana doesnt get pts by the authorities though :(

[PezPus]

yeah i am soo happy :D She is a bit reluctent to let me look at them so I let her be until she has settled a bit :)

The rules here is that if you are alergic to all forms of furried animals and need an animal with you then you can get a turtle, bur you have to get a sertificate from the police saying you are alowed to own it. But iguanas and other reptiles who need to feed on rodents, are strictly prohibited. If they do something and take the iguana, we have two zoo's who wil take it inn im sure, thats what have been done with all other reptiles found in peoples homes, from snakes to frogs and tiny geckos ^_^

Everytime its sent on the news, and you get to see what animal it was, they explain why this is not allowed and explain what will happen to the animal they took. "kristiansand" Zoo took for about 6 months in a big python, it had escaped and caused big horror in a block xD

Just checked on Breksje she wanted to come out so i gave her a bite of my toast an let her run in the sofa a bit, she have 13 small little pinkies :D

[karinanlyla]

awww 13 I hope they all do well :)
It's sounds as if there well looked after once they've been taken in then so that's a relief :)

[Lougarry]

Just take comfort in the fact that your process meant that you found out what he was buying them for!


I agree with this. Your screening process is clearly effective. I would just move on and resist contacting him or reporting him. He must have a good deal more money than sense to want to buy a breeder rat as reptile food.

[p_anda]

An iguana? Iguanas are very difficult to care for not to mention their size...IMO no one should be allowed to own an iguana unless they have facilities comparable to a zoo. I can't say I entirely agree with not being able to own reptiles unless you have an allergy, I think small, non-dangerous/venomous and easy to care for reptiles should be allowed...I used to have two red-eared sliders when I was a kid, their upkeep was so expensive, eventually they grew out of their 70 gallon tank and I had to give them away to a friend who had a pond in a greenhouse. I can't imagine how difficult and how expensive it is to care for something like an iguana, and, to be honest, if reptiles are illegal in Norway what is he going to do if the iguana needs a vet? As any vet would surely report him. It's very irresponsible to own a banned species, that poor thing is going to suffer if it gets sick. :(

Anyways it just goes to show that your screening process is effective, I don't think you should be put off from giving rats to the public. There are many genuine people out there, and surely the rat fancy would benefit from non-pet shop animals being available, esp if you're the only breeder in your area. :)

[Catherine Spark]

Just interested to know - are most reptiles bar turtles strictly prohibited because they eat rodents? Or is it more that allowing reptile-keeping encourages illegal live feeding that they can't control? That seems fair enough actually, surprisingly so. What about tarantulas? Sorry if my interest seems morbid - just curious about the laws.

And yes, whatever the law, dispicable way to treat a breeder that clearly cares about their animals. He probably absolutely dotes on that iguana, but still, illegal or no it is not the only pet in the world and he needs to learn not to act like it is.

[kiania]

Not sure if it's been mentioned (skimmed the thread), but if he's feeding to his reptile, and it is illegal to live-feed, he's killing/freezing the rodents first ('perfectly acceptable' to feed dead rodents to reptiles - rodent eating species have to eat too!). It is the reason why putting cheap rodents on websites (preloved and gumtree being the main ones in the UK at least) is pet suicide :(

That said, for £35, he'd be paying an awful lot for well bred 'feeder' animals, you can get them so much cheaper (living rodents as well as frozen, morbid as it is!).

But it does seem like your screening process works, and I'm sure there are plenty of genuine buyers who'd be as shocked as you.

[kyrilliondaemon]

Er... The only reason this surprises me is because of how much they cost. Rats and mice are "food" to probably nearly as many people as they're "pets". Even if reptiles are illegal as pets where you are, it is something I think most rat/mice breeders will encounter sooner or later. At least he didn't lie about it when it came to the truth.
Fortunately other rodents are less used as food, but even then it is a risk :(

Its a shame it upset you so much though.

[Vectis Hamstery]

Congratulations on your ratty babies! As has already been mentioned, your screening is obviously effective since you picked up this man (if he was genuine rather then trying to cause distress - "trolling"). I've had unsuitable people contact me for my baby hamsters and have turned them down, but the genuine excellent homes that have taken my babies have more than made up for the upsetting/ offensive/ demanding messages :)

[LittleElvis]

I understand your concern, and its awful that he lied to you and wanted to buy a pup of yours to feed to his lizard! But I'm glad this topic came up because I recently saw a youtube video of a guy that owns a bunch of snakes and is breeding rats by the hundreds.
I get that snakes eat rodents, they need to eat too. But I think it is wrong and sick to breed rodents this way. They are crammed in tiny cages and forced to breed constantly, the rats he uses for breeding are pregnant literally all the time. At least some people give their mother rats time to rest and let their rats and mice live comfortably in roomy cages, I can't even begin to express my rage over the fact that he keeps 50 or so mice in a plastic bin. This is animal abuse. I just really want to be able to do something. Do you guys have any ideas?

[Fullmoonnight]

I thought Iguanas were herbivores?

[kiania]

I thought Iguanas were herbivores?

They are.
Iguana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iguana)

[Lougarry]

Maybe it was a monitor? Wikipedia says monitors require only the occasional rodent for calcium. It increasingly sounds like a lie though...

[p_anda]

Wait, now I realise that he wanted to feed a rat to his iguana, I thought he had a snake and an iguana? I misread your post...as someone else pointed out iguanas are herbivores, maybe he doesn't even know what specie of lizard he has, that's quite worrying. :o If he indeed has a monitor, they can be even bigger than iguanas. But I thought monitors mainly eat other smaller lizards, fish or birds and not rodents?