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View Full Version : And...........Introducing.....


Holly
04-05-2008, 10:10 AM
The arrival of the Smarterones!

She's giving birth now!!!! :shock:

Am leaving her in peace, will be back later!

Mollz
04-05-2008, 10:12 AM
Whoopee! :D :)
Congratulations Smartie, Toblerone, Julie and Will.

Fingers crossed that everything goes well :wink:

I_am_plankton
04-05-2008, 10:14 AM
OOh I'm excited :D:D:D:D

Congratulations all and will be looking forward to hearing more!

Basia
04-05-2008, 10:43 AM
Oh Wow, it's like the 'waiting for a bus' saying!
Look forward to your updates. :D

Tammy22
04-05-2008, 10:54 AM
It's all go in your house today, isn't it, lol!!

Congratulations Julie, hope everything goes well!!

Tammy x

04-05-2008, 11:24 AM
That's fantastic news Julie. Well done Smartie! You're going to be able to sell us all tickets to listen to all your babies chirping!! :wink:

Holly
04-05-2008, 11:26 AM
Smartie's just come out of the nest for a wee and I've seen them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A whole sort of pile of them!!!!!!!!

I've a feeling I'll see more of this litter than Molly's - they are always covered but Smart's seems less bothered about covering hers.

Well done Smartie - one of my babies has given birth!

Basia
04-05-2008, 11:29 AM
Congratulations Julie - worth the wait. :wink:

agatecrystal
04-05-2008, 11:55 AM
Congratulations Julie. Mine due tomorrow hehe :D

Jane
04-05-2008, 12:28 PM
Oooh Congrats :D Glad they seem to be doing well so far.

DonnaB
04-05-2008, 12:29 PM
Awwww, congratulations Julie. :D

souffle
04-05-2008, 01:17 PM
Well done dear and congratulations
Love your father and brother
Grandad Paws and Uncle Napoleon
XXX

Bunsey
04-05-2008, 01:26 PM
oh wow! how brilliant! Oscar is an Uncle :D

Spuds Mum
04-05-2008, 01:35 PM
Ahhhh yay! you didnt fool your Mum this time did you Smarts? :x
Fantastic news and great that you have seen them - bet you will never forget that first sight of them :D

So do you think you've had enough excitement for a couple of days Julie???? :shock: :x

Congratulations to all the relatives hamster and non-hamster of these two new broods, along with the potential new owners of the babalooos. I think you made a lot of people happy over the last couple of days Julie!

Holly
04-05-2008, 02:09 PM
Nope she didn't fool me this time.

I've been panicking a bit the last couple of hours - while I've been feeding and letting everyone else out, I haven't heard them. I think it's just that the background noise of wheels and balls and hammies is so loud and they are so quiet - but I'll be glad when I hear them again. :?

Spuds Mum
04-05-2008, 02:20 PM
Some litters are incredibly noisy whilst some are almost silent until they start getting old enough to fight with each other! I am sure they are just settling down and Mums are just getting on with it. If the pups are warm and have full milk tummies, then they haven't a lot to squeak about have they?

I had a glass of Sancerre tonight to toast the continuance of both our lines! MMM it was very nice - maybe I ought to toast each litter separately....and I never did toast Bronte's litter, then what about the Trufflets? and Matty and Tammy's new brood, and Sue had 3 litters recently....and...and

I feel a hangover coming on in the morning :x

Holly
04-05-2008, 03:47 PM
I'm sure you are right - both mums are constantly in the nests so I guess they are just ..alright. It is noisy in here in a background sort of way, I guess I'll hear them in the morning when everyone else is asleep!

Basia
04-05-2008, 04:59 PM
I didn't hear Truffle's litter at all for the first week.
They've made up for it since though...

Holly
04-06-2008, 01:03 AM
I didn't hear Truffle's litter at all for the first week.


Same for me with Caramel's - a few days at least.

Anyway I can hear both litters this morning and I've seen Smartie moving her babies round in the nest (hope she's being careful with those teeth!).

It's so lovely to have babies in the house again :)

Holly
04-06-2008, 06:11 AM
OMG! :shock:

Smartie has just left the nest to eat and I've just seen the babies - I counted at least 16 (I really hope souffle's double it rule doesn't apply here :shock: ).

I'm now really worried as I'm certain she won't be able to rasie that many - which means some will almost certainly not make it :(

I did take a photo, I'm wondering whether or not to post it on my site whilst making it absolutely clear I did it without disturbing the litter or Smartie (who is a very, very tame pet who leaves the nest open). I don't want to encourage anyone else to do anything stupid but it is an incredible sight - what do people here think?

Edit: Also, studying the picture carefully and on a more positive note, some have very dark eyes and some have eyes barely visible - I think we might have REC's and Minks in there!

Matty Day
04-06-2008, 06:17 AM
no maybe not Chinese only normally keep four or 5 and my Athena has got seven i think and is doing a fantastic job so maybe not she might be able to cope just give her as much food as you can i do admit I over feed Athena a bit :x

Matty Day
04-06-2008, 06:25 AM
and I would recommend giving mum some space to retreat to .Athena is in my perfecto and like to take some pup free time on the upper levels ( particularly since they have started to wander round the nest and have even started to build there own tunnels out of the nest I, am tempted to put a wheel up there as pups cant get up there :x

souffle
04-06-2008, 10:05 AM
I would not post it Holly. You don't know who looks at your site and many, many people don't read they just look and think they'll do it too. It is of course up to you but you could always e mail it to anyone you may know who would like to see it (send it to me please :wink: ) Glad to hear Smartie is doing well and she may raise the babies as she was in such good condition, maybe she saved up for two litters at once :lol: . You can only hope and wait.

Basia
04-06-2008, 10:31 AM
My Poppy raised 17 and Posh was one of 17 apparently (hope large litters are not hereditry :shock: ).

Truffle had a much larger litter than the 8 we have now but if the same happens to Smartie I think you just have to accept that sometimes nature just takes its course...

Holly
04-06-2008, 10:55 AM
Thanks guys, it's sinking in now. It is a mixed blessing seeing them so early and I half wish I hadn't - then I wouldn't know if any don't make it. Caramel raised her eleven but I didn't see them at all for 10 days (I have a feeling Molly's litter will be the same - invisible but vocal) so how do I know she didn't have 16? :?

I've been studying the photo and I'm now convinced there are some REC/minks in there (I'm so wishing for a REC!). If anyone would like to see the picture please PM me and I'll be happy to forward it on - but please dont post it on any websites or forums as I really don't want anyone to get the wrong idea and think it's ok to start poking about in day old litters for photos. It's just a sheer fluke Smarts has an open nest. :shock:

Let's hope she can do a Poppy and Posh's mum and raise them all - I'm not worried about homes for them as I have lots already - I was worried about having enough!

jayne
04-06-2008, 12:03 PM
Congrats on your litter! Well, Smarties :wink:

nooboo
04-06-2008, 01:05 PM
oh congrats!!

cant wait to see pictures

Holly
04-07-2008, 02:57 AM
Well, I've just been "treated" to a terrifying display :shock:

I put Smartie's breakfast (wholemeal bread and lactol) into the cage, it did whiff a bit (it obviously did to her) and she shot out of the nest dragging several still attached babies with her :shock:

They all fell off pretty quickly and were squirming around - I missed my chance to count them all because I was panicking - and then one by one she picked them all up in her mouth and took them back - except one :shock:

Poor little guy was scrabbling around for a few minutes, he turned himself round and started to head back towards the nest but, at only one and half days old, his movements just weren't purposeful enough and then he just stopped.

I felt sick, Smartie was in the nest taking no notice so I opened the roof and tapped the food bowl. it took her a while but she looked up and came to get him - phew. He was squeaking lots as she moved him so i think he's ok.

Very traumatic - although it's truly incredible to watch I'd rather have a closed nest :?

Bunsey
04-07-2008, 05:06 AM
omg that's such a heart-in-mouth moment! i felt a bit like that reading it! :shock:

When Tammy gave birth, she scattered them around then picked them all up bar one. it was 0 mins old and couldn't do anything. after 5 mins of praying, i couldn't leave it any more and used a spoon to drop it at the entrance to the hut. i've no idea if she found it or if it survived.

Leon
04-07-2008, 06:00 AM
Oh, I had a moment like that too, with my two day-old robo babies. Mum had decided to move the litter into her house,
which was one of those two level wooden houses with window, and was right up against the glass of the aquarium, in a corner. One of the babies managed to get stuck underneath the wall of the house (where there was a little burrow in the shavings) and wriggled until he was outside, jammed between the house and the glass wall of the aquarium. I could see him perfectly, wiggling away, but mum didn't know he was there, and I couldn't do a thing (other times I scooped up babies with a teaspoon if she seemed to have forgotten them) without moving the house, which could have been disastrous. So I just watched helplessly, convinced this pup was going to die, but he eventually managed to pull himself up the roughly 2 cm to get back in to the hut through the window! I couldn't believe it - what a will to live, at two days old...

Anyway, sorry for the tangent. I'm glad to hear all is going well and look forward to hearing more about them!

Holly
04-07-2008, 06:04 AM
So I just watched helplessly, convinced this pup was going to die, but he eventually managed to pull himself up the roughly 2 cm to get back in to the hut through the window! I couldn't believe it - what a will to live, at two days old...


I know - I was shocked that a less than 2 old baby could turn himself 180 degrees and start paddling madly back towards the nest, bless him :shock: ..I hope he's ok.

I_am_plankton
04-07-2008, 06:06 AM
Aww Julie I can imagine it, him desperately trying to help himself!

I hope he or she pulls through nicely and that mum proves to be a good one :)

Holly
04-07-2008, 06:10 AM
I'm so proud of both my mums so far - Smartie is a bit impulsive (hence the running out this morning with babes still attached!) and she's obviously left the nest open (whether that's 'cos she feels secure or she's just blase I don't know :? ) but she is spending almost all her time suckling the babies. Still it's a lot for her to cope with, I guess.

Molly is like a model mum I think. She's always in the nest and, if she comes out, she does it very carefuly and covers them up slowly before coming out (I still haven't had a glimpse of them).

Basia
04-07-2008, 06:20 AM
Smartie is determined to keep your anxiety levels up isn't she!
It is strange how different they are, I could always see Berry's babies but Truffle was like Molly, in the nest and covered the nest up when she got out for the first few days.
I think from the point of view of babies finding their way back to the nest it is much easier without the shelf. When mine were coming out with their eyes closed I had some anxious moments because of the shelf.

Holly
04-07-2008, 08:40 AM
She's just done it again - with no new food in the cage, this time :?

She left one on his own again, sort of floundering by the food dish then eventually came to get him, just as I was panicking with spoon in hand. I really don't want to touch any of them, even with a spoon, but I can't just leave one lying there - can I? :(

I've left her alone for ages and it's very quiet in the house/room so I don't think I'm distracting her - she's not rushing out to see me or anything. I think it's just that the nest is open and only banked very slightly at the edges.

At what age will they be able to manouevre themselves back into the nest?

Matty Day
04-07-2008, 09:23 AM
your biggest danger is if she does it over night. have you tried giving her more bedding? to see if she will build a covered nest as Athena has just moved nest after her first one started to disintegrate :wink:

but she might just have to many :(

Spuds Mum
04-07-2008, 09:29 AM
I had a video taken on our phone showing a four day old pup wander all the way round the the cage and return to the nest. They are amazing, but always seem to be able to find Mum again!

cloptonite
04-07-2008, 10:25 AM
Omg, :shock: the drama that has been happening in my absense!!

Firstly congrats on your ( and smarties ) second litter! You've got your hands full......16

:shock:

I'm hoping all goes well,and am also eagerly anticipating lots of pretty colours for you :D

Holly
04-07-2008, 10:27 AM
Thanks everyone, I'm going to feed her shortly (am dreading it :? ).

So I've only got a couple of days to panic then Teresa - after that they'll find their own way back! :shock:

Spuds Mum
04-07-2008, 10:54 AM
I am sure they will find their own way back anyway - four days was for a wander right round the cage!!

I think you ought to make a really hard effort to stop worrying so, and try to enjoy it! :wink: Bless you, you will wear yourself into a frazzle! :wink:

Smartie and Molly had wonderful mothers, who looked after them so so well, and I am sure that this will stand them in good stead over the days to come.

*hugs to all, but especially frantic Grandma! :D

Bourne Valley Hams
04-07-2008, 11:01 AM
My Poppy raised 17 and Posh was one of 17 apparently (hope large litters are not hereditry :shock: ).

Truffle had a much larger litter than the 8 we have now but if the same happens to Smartie I think you just have to accept that sometimes nature just takes its course...

I hate to worry you Gill but Beckham's GGG Grandmother Gypsy had 3 litters in her lifetime, she raised 19, 17 and 15.

Spuds Mum
04-07-2008, 11:05 AM
So, you think that there may be a chance that there will be a mini Beckham for me then Sue? Do you think Gill will have one spare (ive already got my order in - from the day Beckham came to Gill from you) :x

souffle
04-07-2008, 11:13 AM
Will you be calling him Brooklyn Spud's mum?

Spuds Mum
04-07-2008, 11:21 AM
Will you be calling him Brooklyn Spud's mum?

Maybe Romeo as we have great hopes that this is what he will turn out to be.

Holly
04-08-2008, 01:47 AM
I've had another good view of the nest this morning when Smartie came out for breakfast (no disasters this time), I think some of them are starting to darken!

agatecrystal
04-08-2008, 04:10 AM
I didn't know you could tell light from dark this early? thought it was bowt 7 days?

Basia
04-08-2008, 05:41 AM
My Poppy raised 17 and Posh was one of 17 apparently (hope large litters are not hereditry :shock: ).

Truffle had a much larger litter than the 8 we have now but if the same happens to Smartie I think you just have to accept that sometimes nature just takes its course...

I hate to worry you Gill but Beckham's GGG Grandmother Gypsy had 3 litters in her lifetime, she raised 19, 17 and 15.

Gosh :shock: I can see they will be going to the sales table at Blenheim if I get that many!

I've had another good view of the nest this morning when Smartie came out for breakfast (no disasters this time), I think some of them are starting to darken!

Sable?? :D

Spuds Mum
04-08-2008, 09:16 AM
sounds like sables, bless them :D I wonder whether you will get any minks out of either litter?

Glad they are doing well, its so nice that Smartie is happy to show off her litter :D

Holly
04-08-2008, 03:06 PM
sounds like sables, bless them :D I wonder whether you will get any minks out of either litter?

Glad they are doing well, its so nice that Smartie is happy to show off her litter :D

(So is Molly now as well :wink: )

I think, though it's too early to even be vaguely sure, that there is at least one with pale eyes and darkening skin - maybe a Mink? There are two that just have to be Sable and several that, I think, are REC as well as some BEC's!

I'm totally besotted with them - I've had another good look tonight and I still think there are just as many as there were (they are 3 days old tonight)! :shock:

Holly
04-09-2008, 02:44 AM
I got a close look at these guys this morning - I can't believe it but I still think there are at least 16 :shock:

I've been studying and studying the photo, not sure if there are even more. I don't know how Smart's is managing but, bless her, she's done well so far. They do all seem a lot smaller than Molly's with one day separating them - I suppose that's to be expected - I can't see any that look a lot smaller than the others.

Louby
04-09-2008, 03:06 AM
I guess smarties litter is expected to be smaller in comparison, as she only has so much milk to go round!

You must be so proud of them all!

Can't wait to see them growing up infront of our eyes!

Holly
04-10-2008, 10:23 AM
I guess smarties litter is expected to be smaller in comparison, as she only has so much milk to go round!

You must be so proud of them all!

Can't wait to see them growing up infront of our eyes!

This is true - Gill has reassured me that, just because they are a big litter, they won't always be small - Posh is one of 17 and she's over 200g! I'll just have to make sure they get tons of food/milk substitutes once they are feedling themselves!

I am proud of them - got another good look/piccie of both litters this morning but I'm at work so I can't send you them. There still appear to be 16 in Smartie's litter (at 5 days old)!

Holly
04-12-2008, 10:25 AM
Quick update on the Smarterones - they are now 7 days old and appear to be doing fine. The nest is still open and Smarts seems to be looking after them well. I think there is at least one who is quite a bit smaller than the others and I think, sadly, that we may have lost a couple in the past couple of days which isn't a surprise really though it's very sad.

I've started a photo diary type thing for this litter as well on my website - all carefully shot zoom lens pics from outside the cage of course.

Bunsey
04-12-2008, 10:53 AM
the pics are just gorgeous, i was cooing over them last night! :D

Spuds Mum
04-12-2008, 11:10 AM
Fantastic photos Julie - they all look very fit and healthy - and there appears to be a nice mix of 'flavours'! :x

Holly
04-12-2008, 11:25 PM
Fantastic photos Julie - they all look very fit and healthy - and there appears to be a nice mix of 'flavours'! :x

Yep! I still think I've got my REC and there are definitely BEC's and Sables in there plus, I think, Minks? Do Minks have pale eyes when they are this age like REC's, does anyone know?

Spuds Mum
04-13-2008, 01:55 AM
Sorry Julie, just answered my view by Pm, but I'll put it here as well, so people dont think I am ignoring you! :oops:

My minks were incredibly hard to tell from RECs until the fur really got going - when they were pinkies, they had the look of red eyes under the eyelids.

So you may have minks too! I remember it suddenly becoming obvious mine were all minks almost overnight, but only because of the fur colour! :x

Holly
04-13-2008, 02:47 PM
So you may have minks too! I remember it suddenly becoming obvious mine were all minks almost overnight, but only because of the fur colour! :x

That's exactly what's happened :shock:

I've just come home from work and the Smarterones have grown HUGELY since last night and now have much more fur - and we've a Satin Mink in there (see new piccie, he's on the top!).

Will now wants to keep him and do the 3 generations of Minks thing and get them standardised!

Gust0o
04-13-2008, 03:17 PM
Will now wants to keep him and do the 3 generations of Minks thing and get them standardised!

Surely to be commended!

souffle
04-13-2008, 03:27 PM
The look lovely and Smartie is doing so well with all those tiddlers. Is there any chance you have a cinnamon in there?

Bunsey
04-13-2008, 03:40 PM
i think you should go for the 3 generations thing. Although i'm sure nooboo has 3 gens of doves and they haven't been standardised :(

Holly
04-14-2008, 04:22 AM
I have just loaded some more pictures of Smartie's litter onto my site - they are quite clear and I can see colours developing! We've got Sables (3, I think), Minks (2, I think) and several RECs and BEC's. There look to be a few Satins but I think there are more normals in this litter (Molly's seems to be the opposite).

On a sad note, I'm now sure there aren't 16 anymore, I counted only 12 this morning and there are two who are significantly smaller than the others (who seem to be growing like mad now and aren't far behind Molly's size-wise :shock: ).

Spuds Mum
04-14-2008, 09:11 AM
They look so beautiful Julie,you must be so proud of your Smartie (and Molly). That mink sure brings back memories - Im glad I wasn't telling you fibs, and it has turned out to be true that the colour suddenly becomes apparent!

Hope the smaller ones make it, they are usually fighters, those little guys, and you will shortly be able to supplement them when you handle them (which just goes to make them even more special to you I find)

Well done - to all of you :x

cloptonite
04-14-2008, 09:42 AM
Just had a look at the little one's!!
They are so cute!
There are so many babies at the moment, it's hard to keep up!
I'm sure the runts will come through. I had a litter of rex rabbits. There was a clear runt in the litter,it was easily half the size of the others :shock: The poor little thing even went bald over his head and shoulders! But by the time they were all old enough to go, they were all the same size ( and his fur grew back :D ).

agatecrystal
04-14-2008, 10:51 AM
congratulations Julie - they are adorable. Hope there's a little girl in there for me :D well done to your girls, they are doing a wonderful job of raising the pups.

Basia
04-14-2008, 03:55 PM
Looking gorgeous, love the photo updates. :P

Holly
04-15-2008, 01:32 AM
I'm off work with a migraine and it's finally gone off enough for me to feed the hams - I knew as soon as I walked in that there were dead babies in Smartie's nest - the smell was overpowering :(

I put her out and I've removed the bodies - 3 of them - with a spoon rubbed in bedding, they were tucked away behind the nest, she hadn't eaten them but she must have eaten quite a few as there are only 8 left now ...four huge and very fat ones (two Sables and two Creams), one medium sized one ( a Cream) and 3 very small ones ( a Mink, a Sable and a Cream).

I'm devastated, I don't know where it's all gone wrong, I guess there were just too many. Until today I haven't touched the nest at all - I don't think she killed them, they were unmarked. They were just very skinny. I think the big ones are taking all the milk now and I don't think the small ones have a chance. I think we are going to lose the three small ones as well.

I'm devastated, I also feel sick and unwell with the migraine and this is so hard. I don't know what to do for the 3 skinny ones.

The awful thing is that I didn't see my last litter until 10 days of age - I wouldn't have known all those babies had died if I'd not seen these either.

(Molly's litter seem to be doing well, even the runt I was worried about yesterday seems to have grown a bit and he's lively enough).

Louby
04-15-2008, 01:38 AM
Oh Julie, I am so sorry.

Just try to remember that you have done EVERYTHING that you can, and the care and attention that they have had from you has been amazing!

Hamster breeding is harder than we all imagine at times, try to stay positive, and take some migraine tablets....

Bourne Valley Hams
04-15-2008, 01:50 AM
What a shame Julie! :(
Sadly it is not uncommon for this to happen. Sometimes pups do die for no apparent reason and it is hard to accept as you get so attached to them even at this young age.

Bunsey
04-15-2008, 02:28 AM
oh dear... that's so sad. poor lil things :cry:

souffle
04-15-2008, 02:47 AM
I am sorry to hear of your loss Holly. There is nothing you have done of could have done to affect the outcome of the situation. It is simply the way of nature and the circle of life goes on. It is hard for the little ones that have gone but they knew nothing but warmth and comfort in their short lives. Smartie has been a great mum and it is normal for small animals to give birth to large litters as a percentage normally do not live. Hard to accept especially when you have grown to know them already. There is always competition in the nest and survival of the fittest ensures that these are the genes that are passed on.
Sorry to hear you are poorly too. Look on the bright side. You still have many healthy pups. Go and get some Imigran and get that migraine sorted then rest up and come to terms with things. Look forward to the future for the remaining babies for it is bright.

04-15-2008, 03:02 AM
Oh Julie, I'm so so sorry to hear that. I can't begin to imagine how awful you must feel. Saying its nature's way is probably cold comfort at the moment but nature does seem to be pretty brutal at times to ensure survival of the fittest.
Is it too soon to try hand rearing the three little ones using a syringe/dropper? Maybe that might just give them the edge to keep them going?
Sending you and Will a huge hug.
xxx

cloptonite
04-15-2008, 05:03 AM
Oh no Julie,I'm so very sorry to hear of this bad news :(

Thinking of you and your brood, hope you feel better soon.

Keri xx

Yaffle
04-15-2008, 05:33 AM
Sorry to hear that Julie, I know how upsetting it can be. I'm sure that Smartie did all she could for the little ones so try not to dwell on it too much. Just give her some space and stay positive. Fingers crossed for you and pups x

Basia
04-15-2008, 06:31 AM
I'm really sorry Julie. :cry:
Take care of yourself and try and focus on the babies you still have. I know its hard because you get so attached to them. *Hugs*

Spuds Mum
04-15-2008, 09:03 AM
Oh Julie, I so know how you are feeling and why it must seem better to not see the litter and so not know, but at least you acknowledged those small souls, prayed for them, and knew that they were there. Try to take comfort in that, though I know how upsetting it is to discover those poor pups.

Hope you feel better soon too, I am sure that Smartie will manage to raise the pups well now, and that they grow fit and strong.

Big hugs Julie and Will x x

Mollz
04-15-2008, 11:13 AM
I'm so sorry Julie, I just don't know what to say.

Take comfort in the fact that you and Smartie have looked after the babies as best as is possible and that you still have 8 lovely babies who will hopefully thrive and grow up into such special little guys and girls.

I do hope that you begin to feel better soon and that you don't get too depressed about this.

Big hugs to both you and Will xx

Mollz Mum
04-15-2008, 01:01 PM
That is so sad Julie, I can imagine you are feeling awful, but I am sure that there was nothing you could have done.

I hope your migraine goes soon. Take care. xx

Holly
04-15-2008, 01:07 PM
Thank you everyone for being so supportive, it really helps. I've come to terms with it all now, I wish that I hadn't had to find the little bodies but I'm glad Will wasn't with me when I did (if I hadn't had the migraine I'd have fed them before work and he'd have been there).

I think there may be more in the nest than the eight I saw this morning - I obviously didn't hang around looking and taking pictures then (there are no updates to Smartie's page today) but tonight, when I fed her/them, it did seem there were more than 8, I just don't know. There was a big, healthy looking Satin Mink on Monday and I didn't see him this morning but I'm sure he's not the Mink who died. Oh well, time will tell I guess.

I've been in bed for most of the day and I was sick this morning, I really hate migraines, it's just niggling me now but I don't think I've seen the last of it yet! :roll:

Jane
04-15-2008, 01:09 PM
Eek, I missed this.

Awww, I'm sorry about the losses of the little ones :( Maybe it was for the best though - if something was wrong then it would be better for them to go now than to end up suffering.

I'm glad the remaining babies seem to be doing well and I'm sure the little ones will be fine too :D

I hope you're feeling a bit better soon too! *hugs*

souffle
04-15-2008, 01:11 PM
Well heres hoping the rest will do OK. I think it is the stress of hamster shows Holly. You had a bad migraine at Brockholes show last year you poor thing. Is there a trigger? Its nuts for BigD!

Holly
04-15-2008, 01:16 PM
Well heres hoping the rest will do OK. I think it is the stress of hamster shows Holly. You had a bad migraine at Brockholes show last year you poor thing. Is there a trigger? Its nuts for BigD!

I remember it well - I don't know how I got home that evening - I drove with one eye closed all the way and didn't even care that I couldn't watch Doctor Who when I got back, I just ordered pzza for the kids, threw up and went to bed, lovely eh? :roll:

I don't know what the triggers are for me - hormones and stress I think. It's niggling now so being here is probably really dumb of me.

Spuds Mum
04-15-2008, 01:18 PM
We've had thunder storms today here, and they always set me off - but thankfully (or not) the Imigran was with me today and I managed to stay at work.

Bless you Julie, feel better soon x

Matty Day
04-15-2008, 02:49 PM
sorry i posted in the wrong litter at first :roll:

hope the rest are ok from now on :x

Bunsey
04-15-2008, 05:23 PM
i had a migrane at Crufts. i drove home with the windows wound down, trying not to puke or look at the headlights.

Basia
04-16-2008, 12:34 AM
Hope all goes well now with the rest of the litter and you don't have any more upsets.
I do sympathise with the migraines, I had 1 or 2 migraines a month for most of my adult life until I started taking blood pressure tablets and I have only had a couple of migraines since. I suppose their has to be some positives to taking medication. :roll:

Lady Fluff
04-16-2008, 01:23 AM
oh Julie, I'm so sorry, that's so sad :cry:
I've had migraines before and they're hideous. Hope you feel a bit better today.

Holly
04-16-2008, 03:47 AM
Slightly better news today, seems I was a bit presumptious writing off so many of the litter because there are 10 today (two were obviously hiding yesterday!). They've all eaten runny baby porridge this morning, I fed it to them in the nest whilst Smartie was having a run and she had her share when she got back. There are still a couple giving me some cause for concern but they do all seem to be growing.

Genetically, is it possible for a Cream (carrying REC) and a Mink to have anything other than Creams, Minks and Sables in the litter? There is one baby who is a different colour to all the others - possibly an agouti colour, maybe cinnamon (and satin)but I didn't think that was possible?

I'm just very fuzzy headed now, but I'm still wary 'cos my migraines usually last about 3 days :roll:

cloptonite
04-16-2008, 04:27 AM
Oh that's good news Julie,10 little ones :D

I know I really know nothing about genetics, but I do have hamsterlopedia! And from what I can understand, you need cinnamon to make mink? So does that mean that your little one could be cinnamon,like you think?

All of your babies are adorable, can't wait to see them toddling around with their eyes open :)

souffle
04-16-2008, 04:43 AM
Yay I spotted that cinnamon Julie. I am sure it is possible as Bailey (cinnamon) definitly gave one p gene to Pawsy and there is a 50% chance that Smartie got the p gene too from him, making her a cinny carrier. The baby could have got the p gene from smartie and by some fluke no cream I think but also got the p gene from the mink and no umbrous making her a cinny. I am not sure if that is possible actually but it seems logical to me that the colour genes could separate and the cream (e)and cinny(p) are not necessarily linked. Maybe I am making this up. If it is cinny it will have lighter eyes and ears. It may be a mink though and the satin is changing the colour. It was quite a while before we realised Nelson and Bailey had a cinny as we did not know he carried it!

cloptonite
04-16-2008, 07:30 AM
Oh, so you need 2 cinnamon genes to make cinnamon
:oops: I am a beginner......!

Out of interest, is there two colours that make cinnamon, like black and cinnamon make dove,or do you need two that express or carry it?
I find the whole colour thing facinating, but way over my head ,I'm afraid :oops:

souffle
04-16-2008, 08:31 AM
Cinnamon is a recessive gene symbolised by the letter p. Small p as it is recessive and p for pink I believe. To be a cinnamon a hammy needs to have two p genes for it to be shown or expressed as that colour. However it can be influenced by other colour pairs present. For example a hammy who gets two cream genes (also a recessive) ee and one p gene would be a black eyed cream (eep) carrying cinny. It it got two cream and two cinny (eepp) it would be a red eyed cream. The fur colour cream dominates the cinny. If it got two cinnys and one cream it would then be a cinny carrying cream (ppe) If it only got one of each (ep) the colour always reverts back to the wild type golden in colour (++) Some recessives colours carried in a single dose affect the colour of a golden for example carrying cream usually pales the golden and carrying black makes them darker and heavily ticked. It is really a bit of a lottery who gets what when a baby hamster is created like all creatures so sometimes you get a surprise as recessives have a habit of popping up when you least expect them! There is a simple introduction in the article section.

Holly
04-16-2008, 11:41 AM
Unfortunately I have more bad news tonight - I have just removed 3 more dead babies, one half eaten from behind the nest. There are now just 7 left in Smartie's litter and two of the seven ( a Mink and the one who's colour I'm not sure of) are incredibly small and thin, they look like they are gasping their last breath, it's very distressing. One has a very swollen tummy and the other looks like it's tummy is starting to swell. They are getting flung around and squashed by the bigger litter mates and I was in two minds whether to take them out and let them die peacefully. In the end I didn't as I didn't want to interfere in the nest at all and risk the others but I can't bear to think of them - I know they are both going to die.

The other five - 3 Sables and 2 Creams are huge and fat and look about the same size as Molly's day older litter - some are starting to come out of the nest.

I just can't believe that, from at least 16 babies, we have just five healthy ones, I'm devastated for all the ones we've lost. Because I've been watching them for the past 11 days I feel like I've got to know them all just a bit and to watch them starve and die is just horrible. When I saw hoiw many she'd got when they were just an hour old I expected some not to make it - the fact that they made it to 10 days old and had fur and little personalities is horrible - I started to think they'd all make it.

If I ever breed hamsters again, I shall leave the Gabber shelf in like I did with Caramel, I don't want to see them in future until they come out on their own, it's heartbreaking to watch the litter dwindle away - this morning those three were alive.

agatecrystal
04-16-2008, 11:42 AM
So sorry to hear of the loss of the little ones Julie. It's good that you've still got ten though and I hope that they all grow up big and strong for you, will and their mummy :)

Jane
04-16-2008, 11:54 AM
I'm so sorry Julie :cry:

I hope the ones which are left continue to be strong and hope they will be all okay. I hope the two little ones manage to pull through for you too.

04-16-2008, 12:01 PM
Oh Julie, I'm so so sorry. Its just so heartbreaking. Poor Smartie is doing her best but I guess it was just such a huge litter that it's been too for them all.

I have to agree with you about open litters - I'm starting to think that ignorance is bliss and its easier not to know how many babies there are until they can crawl out of the nest unaided.

I feel so sad for you (and Smartie). I know its nature's way but its seems so tragic. :cry:

Sending you a big hug.

Spuds Mum
04-16-2008, 12:43 PM
oh Julie, that is just so so sad. My sympathies are with you, you know that, and I do understand how you feel.

Big hugs x

Basia
04-16-2008, 12:51 PM
Oh Julie I'm so sorry. The ones we lost later all had swollen tummies too. :(
I don't know what to say, just *hugs*

souffle
04-16-2008, 12:54 PM
So sorry Holly and Will. Sometimes when they start to eat food there has been something not quite right and they can't seem to digest it properly and sadly succomb. I agree with you. Ignorance is bliss and we will never personally have a litter without an enclosed nest area. You would still have to have removed the little lost ones though Holly for hygene reasons. Hugs to you both and snuggles to Smartie who has done a great job even if you only end up with one baby, it will still have been worth it. Her milk may be drying up a bit and the smaller pups just not getting enough in their weakened state. You will never really know. Hang on in there guys and Smarts. Pawsy send his love and says 'love you'
XXXXX

Spuds Mum
04-16-2008, 12:55 PM
Oh thats right gill, and in Princesses litter we lost a lot of pups that had bloated tummies, one we had to have pts was just agonising to look at poor wee thing :cry:

I spent a lot of time looking on the internet to try to find out about 'bloat' as I have seen something somewhere about it, but couldn't.

No matter how many times I tell myself that it is just nature etc. etc. it is still dreadfully upsetting isn't it? :cry:

Leon
04-16-2008, 12:59 PM
So sorry to hear of the tough few days you've had. I hope everything goes well from now on, and the healthy babies bring you lots of happiness :wink:

sarahh
04-16-2008, 02:55 PM
Hi Julie sorry to hear about the litte ones I really hope the others thrive and progress.

Holly
04-17-2008, 02:40 PM
The two small pups have both died, one in the night and the little Mink sometime today - Will was devastated tonight as he'd hoped, after seeing it this morning, that the Mink might make it. I was absolutely dreading coming home to see what I might find, but I knew those two little ones didn't really have a chance.

Smartie now has just five babies left of the initial 16 and the only good thing to say is that all five are very large and plump and all seem to be eating solids and venturing out of the nest.

There are three Sables, a Black-Eyed Cream and a red-Eyed Cream - they seem to be bigger than Molly's who are a day older so I think we know where Smartie's milk has been going.

Spuds Mum
04-17-2008, 02:44 PM
ahhh poor you and Wills, how awful for you. :( poor Smartie just obviously couldn't keep up with supplying all those pups, and as the stronger ones grew and became even more strong, the smaller ones of course wouldn't have been able to compete.

I know its upsetting, but as I said before, the comfort I take when it happens to me, is that you acknowledged them, cared about them and loved them, even though it was for but a short time.

sleep well tiny babies, I'm sure grandma Bailey will be watching you cross the bridge xx

hugs to you and Will x

I_am_plankton
04-17-2008, 02:44 PM
Julie I somehow missed the latest in this thread, I am so so so sorry for what has happened, you must be devastated :(
It is times like this for sure it must put people off breeding.

I am really sorry *hugs* but there was nothing you could have done x

Mollz
04-17-2008, 02:49 PM
I'm so sorry Julie and Will - it must be devastating to watch. At least you can take comfort in the knowledge that the others are all large and healthy, and now eating on their own - which gives them such a better chance of survival. Fingers crossed for these five little darlings.

Sleep well all of the lost babies - you will be greatly missed and were dearly loved in the few days you spent on this earth.

souffle
04-17-2008, 02:51 PM
I'm sure grandma Bailey will be watching you cross the bridge xx


She sure will. Don't worry Will. Nelson and Bailey will look after their little great-grandchildren and they will all be running free now but they will never forget when it was you who watched over them and cared and hoped. :cry:

Holly
04-17-2008, 03:13 PM
Thank you everyone, I'll tell Will that, souffle.

I've put a couple of pictures of the remaining five babies on my site - just really so that someone can tell me that they really do look well and healthy and that I'm not imagining it. I'm not sure what to think anymore - just 3 days ago I though most of the litter looked ok :(

Mollz
04-17-2008, 03:18 PM
Just had a look at the pictures Julie, and the babies do all look lovely and healthy (I'd even say slightly chubby :D ) and I agree that they do look about the same size as Molly's lot.

Just try to stay positive - although I know it is so hard - we are all here for you and hoping for the best. * hugs *

04-17-2008, 03:22 PM
Julie, I'm so so sorry for your, Will and Smartie's loss. You must be heartbroken. RIP little Smarterones. :cry:

If it helps at all, the remaining 5 Smarterones look fabulously healthy on your photos. Absolutely stunning! These guys are real survivors so I'm hoping your worries and bad times are now over, fingers crossed.

xxx

Basia
04-17-2008, 04:12 PM
They look lovely Julie.
I'm so sorry you have lost so many of this litter, it is heartbreaking. I hope these 5 go on to be fabulous hamsters for you and Will.

Holly
04-18-2008, 01:46 AM
Thanks again everyone.

Will went to school in tears this morning, I do wonder if I'm scarring him for life with all this :?

Anyway all's well this morning, all five babies are still with us and seem to have grown since last night. I don't think there any Satins, we seem to have 3 Sables, 1 Black-eyed Cream and 1 Red-eyed Cream (hurrah). No idea on sexes yet as can't handle them obviously but I'll post a couple of new piccies on my site.

souffle
04-18-2008, 03:03 AM
The babies look great Holly and I am sure you are out of the woods now. Two of the sables look satin to me but maybe its the light:?
I am sure that will is learning a great deal from the experience about life, death and the emotional rollercoaster that come as part and parcel of any experience. It will teach him compassion and help him come to terms with the ups and downs and enrich his life. Their loss was never in vain. Little things can teach us so much.

Bunsey
04-18-2008, 05:33 AM
awww... the little satin mink one is gone. that's the one you really wanted isn't it? poor babbas. the final 5 look strong and healthy though. I think they'll end up being very special to you.

Holly
04-18-2008, 06:10 AM
awww... the little satin mink one is gone. that's the one you really wanted isn't it? poor babbas. the final 5 look strong and healthy though. I think they'll end up being very special to you.

It was the one Will wanted and, for him, it was the straw that broke the camel's back - he was devastated last night when he realised it was gone (when he first looked in he was ecstatic 'cos he thought he saw it :( ).

I think you are right Bunsey, they are going to end up being five very special little guys

Mollz Mum
04-18-2008, 01:40 PM
I'm so sorry Julie and Will. These last five look lovely and healthy and I hope will do fine. I can't believe what you must have been through in the last few days and understand your worries about Will. Hopefully, he will eventually understand that sometimes nature works this way and these things are meant to be, although I'm sure that's no comfort at the moment. Lets hope he can concentrate on these healthy ones and your other beautiful litter.
Take care.
x

Spuds Mum
04-18-2008, 01:44 PM
they look absolutely beautiful Julie, and so very healthy. Are you sure there are no satins in there? I thought I spied one, but it may be just the light.

Again, whoever the lucky people are who end up with a Smarterone, will get a very special guy or girl indeed. :D

Lolo
04-19-2008, 07:16 AM
Just wanted to say sorry about all the lost babies holly. have been reading about all thel itters and everything else thats been happening
jus tnot been great the last week . hope the ones that are left give you so much joy in the future. best wishes and lots of fun filled hours to you all.

agatecrystal
04-19-2008, 11:31 AM
So sorry to hear about the many losses you have faced with this litter Julie. Cheer yourself up by thinking 5 healthy ones are better than 5 ill ones or none at all. I'm sure she's being a great mum and I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you, will and the the babies.

Holly
04-19-2008, 03:00 PM
Thanks everyone, the remaining five babies are 14 days old today, they all seem nice and fat and healthy, thank goodness. I'll wait a couple more days and then start handling them.

I think, despite the loss of so many, Smartie has been a really good mum - it's becasue she was so attentive that so many survived until 10 days of age. Perhaps if they hadn't, less might have died in the end, I don't know.

Anyway we are concentrating on the positives now, they are cracking babies ( I love them all but I especially love the REC :wink: ).

Holly
04-19-2008, 03:00 PM
Thanks everyone, the remaining five babies are 14 days old today, they all seem nice and fat and healthy, thank goodness. I'll wait a couple more days and then start handling them.

I think, despite the loss of so many, Smartie has been a really good mum - it's becasue she was so attentive that so many survived until 10 days of age. Perhaps if they hadn't, less might have died in the end, I don't know.

Anyway we are concentrating on the positives now, they are cracking babies ( I love them all but I especially love the REC :wink: ).

Spuds Mum
04-19-2008, 03:32 PM
ahh I know how much you have wanted a REC - and dont blame you - I do so love them too :D
Glad to hear they are doing well - Smartie has been an angel hasnt she x

Basia
04-19-2008, 03:51 PM
You have 5 little beauties there, it is a good thing to focus on the positives AND you have a REC!

agatecrystal
04-20-2008, 07:56 AM
Glad the little ones are staying and fighting strong.

Holly
04-20-2008, 08:03 AM
Thanks, I've put a few new piccies on my site and we should have a good idea tomorrow what sexes we have in this litter. I already think there is a Sable girl as I saw her laying on her back earlier :wink:

Jane
04-20-2008, 09:49 AM
Hehe I love the piccies of Smartie with a baby in her mouth :lol:

souffle
04-20-2008, 12:13 PM
They are looking great. :lol: Smartie is a strict mummy there not letting them out too much! And picking them up by the legs...really Smartie you minx :lol:

Holly
04-21-2008, 01:53 AM
I'm going to handle these guys for the first time as soon as mummy wakes up and wants out so watch this space :wink:

I put some out of the nest piccies on my site last night and I *think* MY REC is a girl, though I hardly dare believe it!

Spuds Mum
04-21-2008, 02:06 AM
Right - finds car keys - will be there in a couple of hours! :x :x

Enjoy the cuddling - hope the REC turns out to be everything you hope for (ie female and stunning) :x

Holly
04-21-2008, 02:23 AM
Well I've done it - and I'm really none the wiser abut their sexes :oops:

The first time I looked I thought we had one girl (the REC!) and four boys and then I checked again and I thought they were all girls :shock:

So basiaclly I don't know and will need to keep checking!

I'm trying to remember - is it quite hard to tell at this stage and when does it get easier? I didn't have a problem with Caramel's litter but I don't think we really checked this early.

Spuds Mum
04-21-2008, 02:25 AM
day by day they get easier to sex though dont they Holly? and it gives even more chances for cuddles.

Am sat here with Audi on my lap, trying to tell her it was only a couple of weeks ago she was as small as that, she doesnt believe me though, I can tell :wink:

Holly
04-21-2008, 09:01 AM
For those waiting for news on whether these guys are boys or girls - just had another look and I'm none the wiser, tonight I thought they were all boys :?

I think I'll have to leave it a bit longer as I'm obviously not skilled enough. The problem is that they are so small and wriggly it's hard to get a good view, let alone judge the distance between holes and whether there's fur there or not!

Sorry to be so cryptic, I did take more piccies though :wink:

agatecrystal
04-21-2008, 12:21 PM
I'm sure it will become obvious in a short period of time. Good luck with the REC.

Bourne Valley Hams
04-21-2008, 12:53 PM
There is a stage at 2-3 weeks old when it can be very hard to sex them. You can tell when very young, before the fur grows, when you can see the females nipples. It will be easier in a week or so!

internet_nobody
04-21-2008, 01:01 PM
There is a stage at 2-3 weeks old when it can be very hard to sex them. You can tell when very young, before the fur grows, when you can see the females nipples. It will be easier in a week or so!

Oh i'm glad you've said that, I thought I was mad thinking I could tell on the pink and wrigglies! They were then covered until the started to fuzz so I thought I imagined it...

Holly
04-21-2008, 01:17 PM
Thank you SO much, BVH - feel better now as I'm still none the wiser ...I'll have another look in a few days :wink:

Holly
04-25-2008, 04:43 AM
I now know .....that we have five boys here :shock:

I was hoping for the REC to be a girly but hey ho - I still love HIM :wink:

I'm sorry that I've disappointed two brilliant people last night with my lack of girls but, on the plus side, all five remain healthy and are growing like mad! The BEC is HUGE and looks to be a really nice boy - we are considering keeping him now. There is also a lovely big non-satin Sable with a nice blunt face - he'll go to Will's best friend Josh who is hoping to start entering the main show with him. The other two have lovely pet homes and, while I'm disappointed about the two girly homes, I was able to tell two disappointed friends they can have hamsters after all which was nice.

More piccies tonight - can't believe they are 3 weeks old this weekend :shock: