Wolf hybrids...are some people losing the plot?

[p_anda]

I don't think I'm the only person terrified by the prospect of the increasing popularity of these 'dogs'. Over tha past 2-3 years the number of ads and breeders seems to have doubled, I imagine according to public demand.

A wolf hybrid is a wolf crossed with a domestic breed of dog, such as a husky, malamute, german shepherd, etc. So technically speaking these are neither dogs or wolves. I know that taxonomically speaking dog and wolf are the same, wolf being Canis Lupus, and the dog has just the world familiaris stuck on the end of that. So they can interbreed. Great. Does that mean we should purposely breed these animals, which are now are so far removed from each other that they are a different subspecies? There is 15,000 years of domestication and careful breeding separating these two distinct animals. Dogs are different in terms of behaviour, temperament, health and often looks, not to mention intelligence [yes we actually dumbed down wolves to become dogs] Wolves are very different from dogs. They do not understand human behaviour. They have no desire to comply. Their instincts tells them that they can kill anything that they want if they're hungry. They are aggressive or/and fearful towards humans and oher animals. They can't be kept in a tiny garden or inside a house without destroying it, they will make regualr attempts to escape and undoubtedly will succeed at one point unless their enclosure is very secure.

And these hybrids are available to the general public without a license in the UK. Anyne can go out and buy one of these animals wihtout having to prove their capability of caring for one. Now I'm all for having the right to own any wild animal if you can care for it properly and if the species isn't endangered, but considering the amount of people who can't even housetrain their domestic dog, I have my doubts about them being able to care for a half-wild animal that is more than capable of killing their owner and pose a serious threat to the community. I would say that at least half of the people who will end up buying these will become unable to take care of them at one point and these animals will be have to go to a rescue or PTS. Those poor things never even asked to be born.

I really don't think these animals make good pets. Would a tiger make a good pet? Now, I think that a person who can keep a tiger in a large enclosure on their own private land and keep it under control should be able to own one. But even the owner of the tiger knows that the tiger is never going to be a real pet - it will be a tame wild animal that should be treated as such. But these people have licenses. Why shouldn't someone who gets a wolf hybrid have to get a license? Wolf attacks o people are well documented, though it's usually the person's fault - and by bringing the wolf into your average household I think is asking for disaster. Most people can't even control a dog, let alone a wolf.

I think the deliberate breeding of these hybrids is just an exploitation of people's romantic views about wolves...wolves in the wild.

This whole practive of breeding wolf-hybrids should be banned. You either get a dog or get a wolf and keep it the way it should be kept - but don't mix the two and hope it will work out. Why this is legal is beyond me.

[cathface]

I completely agree with everything you said. I really don't understand why anyone thought this would be a good idea. there is a reason we have wolves in zoos with several fences between them and us, and dogs in the home. if you want a wolf-looking dog, there are several breeds that you can get, which are wholly and fully domesticated dog and so won't pose such a threat as a wild animal, like Huskies, Malamutes, Utonagans, German Shepherds. even these breeds, because they are still quite similar to wolves in shape and intelligence*, need proper training by experienced people.

*I read somewhere on another thread on HC I think, that aggression is actually related to the shape of the dog, so more pointed snouts and 'wolf-like' dogs are generally more intelligent and prone to aggression.

BEFORE anyone shouts me down, yes I know that if a dog is trained, it will not be aggressive, regardless of breed, but you cannot argue that dogs like German Shepherds and Dobermans are not as naturally more aggressive/protective/possessive than something like a Labrador or King Charles Cavalier Spaniel. there is a reason they are used as guard dogs and police dogs, after all.

[StarlightSerenity]

yes we actually dumbed down wolves to become dogsDon't agree with this at all. Yeah, a lot of dogs are a bit thick, but there are many, many dogs and breeds that are highly intelligent, if they weren't they wouldn't be able to do the things they do. Just because they probably couldn't bring down big game prey or survive in the wild doesn't mean that they aren't intelligent.

And these hybrids are available to the general public without a license in the UKIf I remember rightly, that only applies when the hybrid is F5+, so that the 'wild' side is very diluted (an F5 is a cross between two F4's). Any generation before that you need a license for. Don't go believing everything said in the adverts for these animals.

Sorry but it seems like you're making sweeping statements without having done any proper research other than looking at a few Pets4Homes adverts :/

Don't get me wrong - I don't think that these animals should be bred, I think it's completely wrong and pointless, more should be done to improve the pedigree dog lines, not creating hybrids and designer dogs (that being a totally different topic!).

[Ren]

This seems to be a good article about it: http://www.wolfpark.org/Images/Education/ArticlesWordDocs/SoYouThinkYouWantAWolf.pdf

I absolutely agree though, wolves are wild animals and should not be crossed with domesticated dogs. The only people equipped to deal with wolves or hybrids are those with huge reserves. A wolf-hybrid is just not a good idea.

[racinghamster]

I know nothing about genetics or breeding cross bred/hybrid species, but what I do believe is, wolves should be kept where they belong, in their countries of origin and wild. These people are doing these `dogs` no favours at all. They can`t show them as a breed and they will likely become the new `devil dogs` much like the label attached to Pitbull types. These dogs deserve better. The people who breed and sell them for mere gain should be locked up.

[Mikayla]

*snort* And they say that pit bulls are dangerous. Morons.

[racinghamster]

It`s not the dogs 99% of the time it`s their owners who don`t understand the breed. Look at Cesar Millan`s pit bull Daddy (now sadly passed away). He was the biggest softie going, but only because he had an owner who understood the phsycology behind owning that particular breed. Pit bulls are banned in the UK but there are still plenty of them and in the wrong hands. It`s the poor dogs that suffer in the end.

[p_anda]

Don't agree with this at all. Yeah, a lot of dogs are a bit thick, but there are many, many dogs and breeds that are highly intelligent, if they weren't they wouldn't be able to do the things they do. Just because they probably couldn't bring down big game prey or survive in the wild doesn't mean that they aren't intelligent.

If I remember rightly, that only applies when the hybrid is F5+, so that the 'wild' side is very diluted (an F5 is a cross between two F4's). Any generation before that you need a license for. Don't go believing everything said in the adverts for these animals.

Sorry but it seems like you're making sweeping statements without having done any proper research other than looking at a few Pets4Homes adverts :/

Don't get me wrong - I don't think that these animals should be bred, I think it's completely wrong and pointless, more should be done to improve the pedigree dog lines, not creating hybrids and designer dogs (that being a totally different topic!).

I've been following what's going on with these animals for about a year now...and I have seen a huge rise in the number of irresponsible breeders who are happy to sell these without any background checks. By that I mean, the breeder really couldn't care less if the person's got a license or not. Maybe I should have said that you can easily buy one without the dangerous wild animal license. You need a license up until F2. I really don't agree with that. Just because the hybrid is only 1/4 wolf doesn't make it more predictable than a 1/2 wolf. As long as the line isn't diluted down to the point where the offspring is only around 1/20 wolf or less, you shouldn't be able to class it as a domestic animal.

I think everyone who wants to own one of these should get a license, because most people will be wanting actual half wolves, and not a dog that had one wolf ancestor 5 generations ago. The whole point of this 'breed' is that they half or quarter wolves, and that's what attracts people. And I don't truly believe that everyone who's got one these has got a license. In fact, most probably don't, just as how some people still walk around wiht pit bulls yet they are illegal to keep.

I have an aquientance who's got two hybrids of her own and wants more...she doesn't have a license and neither can she provide them with the room they need. They are locked outside in a small pen because they destroyed the walls and the furniture in the house due to boredom...when they were allowed to roam, they regularly killed livestock and I would consider them too dangerous to interact with other dogs or people. What kind of life is that for those hybrids, being locked in a tiny pen...just so that this girl has two 'cool' 'pets'. The breeder who supplied her with the animals is well known. Obviously I'm not going to start naming anyone. This person has a lot of custom and makes a lot of money without caring about the animals they bring into this world. And their numbers seem to be growing. In 5-10 years time rescues will be bursting with these uncontrollable animals, just because some idiot thought it would be a good idea to breed a wolf to a dog, as a new household pet...I don't even see the logic behind this.

I don't think the Dangerous Dog Act is well enforced, let alone the Dangerous Wild Animals act. If I wanted to, I could go out and buy one these hybrids without any hiccups, and I have no doubt that if a person just spent a little longer looking on the internet wouldn't have trouble getting one just as easily as a regular dog. Yes there are breeders who are ethical [if you can even call them that given they breed them] and will make sure you can take care of a hybrid before they sell you one. But why would anyone bother, if they go to a different breeder who will give them a puppy no matter the circumstances? I guess you could say this about any animal breeder, but aquiring a wolf hybrid legally and morally may take several years, whereas getting a springer spaniel from an ethical breeder may just take a few weeks.

People aren't taking this matter seriously yet, wait until it goes on the News...'wolf dog ate my baby' 'wolf dog ate my cat' 'wolf dog ate my other dog' that kind of usual stuff, however ignorant, would be based on facts. And the people responsible this will be the ones without the license...

[mangoandmimi]

If these licences are being sold then i can't imagine them being sold to people who will provide a good home, only to people able to pay the money and fill out forms. :/ There's enough not-great-pet dogs out there (pitbulls staffies etc etc), why add to them?
Don't quite know what they expect to get out of a wolf dog hybrid, other than the fact that they probably find it interesting to see what happens..

[StarlightSerenity]

Can I ask (don't have to answer if you don't want to) - have you reported this person?

If you know of cases like these, see adverts etc etc then you (I mean 'you' in a general way, not specifically p_anda) should report them. I don't meant to the website, but to DEFRA or the RSPCA or someone who will take more action than just removing the adverts.

I totally agree with you - they shouldn't be bred, they shouldn't be sold and more needs to be done to protect the animals, prevent the illegal sale of them etc etc etc.

[kyrilliondaemon]

Just out of curiosity are you aware of the sheer number of probably more dangerous but perfectly legal (without a license) "pets" there are in the UK?
To be perfectly blunt, as someone who does have an interest in the exotic mammal trade in the UK, I really, really think there're bigger concerns than wolf-dog hybrids - especially given that they do have licensing laws up to a point. They probably shouldn't be bred entirely because hybridisation is generally a bad thing, but as far as the danger goes, I really don't see them as the most worrying thing someone can own without a license.

[p_anda]

Can I ask (don't have to answer if you don't want to) - have you reported this person?

If you know of cases like these, see adverts etc etc then you (I mean 'you' in a general way, not specifically p_anda) should report them. I don't meant to the website, but to DEFRA or the RSPCA or someone who will take more action than just removing the adverts.

I totally agree with you - they shouldn't be bred, they shouldn't be sold and more needs to be done to protect the animals, prevent the illegal sale of them etc etc etc.

No, I haven't. I have spoken to this person about the way she treats these two animals, and I told her that she should give them up for adoption and give them to someone who can care for them properly. Unfortunately, this person knows my parents and her parents know my parents, and after that the girl's parents told my parents to tell me to stop 'meddling'. So if out of the blue someone knocked on their door to take the hybrids they would know it was me whos' responsible for it and I have no doubt they would give hell to my parents over it [I don't live in the area anymore, so they can't bother me] The girl's family has more sense than money, and they are planning to get another one, so what I said hasn't hit home...

I do report adverts every now and then, but I can't remember a single time anything's been done about them...I don't think people really care to be honest. I guess they can't prove that the breeder has unethical practices or even illegal.

[p_anda]

Just out of curiosity are you aware of the sheer number of probably more dangerous but perfectly legal (without a license) "pets" there are in the UK?
To be perfectly blunt, as someone who does have an interest in the exotic mammal trade in the UK, I really, really think there're bigger concerns than wolf-dog hybrids - especially given that they do have licensing laws up to a point. They probably shouldn't be bred entirely because hybridisation is generally a bad thing, but as far as the danger goes, I really don't see them as the most worrying thing someone can own without a license.

Yes, I am aware, and concerned too. But the main problem with hybrids is not that they're dangerous, but rather their popularity. A few years ago I'd never thought they'd be so popular. When only a select few people had access to them, their existence wasn't in the public knowledge, it was fine. But now they are advertised on almost all puppy sites. There are lots of individuals out there who'll think 'ooh cool a half wolf I want one' when originally they might have been looking for a totally different dog.

[StarlightSerenity]

I have to admit, I find the risk to British wildlife more worrying (in respect to non native anmails being released then breeding and causing problems with the ecosystem, greys squirriels for example) than wolf hybrids killing people. But then again, I'm not a big lover of people. My main concern, regarding wolf hybrids, is the suffering of the animals involved.

It's all very well us chatting about it, but what can be done? I don't know the legalities regarding the breeding, keeping and pet market where wolf hybrids are concerned, what's legal, what isn't. Are there any groups out there trying to get them banned or the legislation changed?

[kyrilliondaemon]

The thing is that there's a surprising trade in other exotics too. Not good for any of the animals involved really, so I still can't quite see why the hybrids should be the ones singled out.
Remember when Harry Potter made a worrying number of people buy pet owls? Its just the latest silly fad and in a few years chances are they'll all be stuck in shelters - same as the owls, same as the meerkats will be e.t.c.

Its bad, but I really can't see it as anything exceptional in this case.

[chewy1991]

This has been a big problem in the US for many years. In many places, it is now illegal to own wolves and/or wolf hybrids because too many people have done so irresponsibly. I don't agree with attempting to domesticate a wolf - even if it is by breeding him with a dog. A wolf and a dog may be part of the same family, but they are not the same animal. I can think of one guy I've known to own wolves that seemed to know what he was doing. He realized the animals were not part of his family. He didn't treat them like they were dogs, he treated them like they were wolves who happened to live on his property. Not that I'm defending him, but it is important to point out that he put a lot of work into those animals. One has to put work into owning a wild animal. They're not domesticated. Even tamed ones can have their "moments".

I don't know how it is there, but here in the states... most "wolf hybrids" aren't even really hybrids, anyway. It is a common trend for terrible breeders to mix one of the various nordic breeds with another nordic breed and lie when they call the puppies "wolf hybrids". The people who want these kinds of pets seem to often be gullible enough to fall for the trick and will tell someone like myself and be scoffed at and told "That dog is a Malamute/husky mix. There is no wolf in him except the wolf that is in every domestic dog."

Wolf hybrids are only as dangerous as the people owning them. My concern is that very, very few people know how to properly handle such a pet. Therefore, they do pose some danger. They're not retrievers or terriers. There aren't hundreds of books available to research them. Only small number of questionable ones. They haven't been domesticated for thousands of years. It's just not the same and the people I see that want such a pet seem to think that it is. I've seen so many true hybrids end up on chains or in small kennels because the owner just could not handle them. It isn't fair to the animal.

As far as other dangerous pets go, I will never understand why people own them. But that's a whole other topic.

[racinghamster]

It`s like all the other `fads` in animal breeds that attract the attention of the many and not the few. It becomes legal and then ten years down the line, nothing much can be done about the problems it has caused. Same old story. No real policing of what comes in or what goes out. When I watch those animal rescue programs on TV, it`s sad to see individuals keeping allegators, lizards, snakes like constrictors and various other exotics that get too much for them or are rescued due to sheer neglect. Most of the time it ends in a sad life for the animal, yet the owners don`t seem to realise their limitations. Even keeping something as simple and well established as a pet hamster takes commitment, money and most of all, time and compassion. I wouldn`t dream of even keeping a `different` type of animal unless I sat down and thought ahead about 20 years knowing that I could make that total commitment. Not many people can do that.

[p_anda]

I have to admit, I find the risk to British wildlife more worrying (in respect to non native anmails being released then breeding and causing problems with the ecosystem, greys squirriels for example) than wolf hybrids killing people. But then again, I'm not a big lover of people. My main concern, regarding wolf hybrids, is the suffering of the animals involved.

It's all very well us chatting about it, but what can be done? I don't know the legalities regarding the breeding, keeping and pet market where wolf hybrids are concerned, what's legal, what isn't. Are there any groups out there trying to get them banned or the legislation changed?

Well, I personally would never attempt to 'liberate' those hybrids, as they attack everything and everyone who isn't a member of the girl's family [only including the family members who live on the property, they are very territorial] and I hope no one tries to steal them or anything like that because I can only imagine what would happen to that person who went in their enclosure. Even if they had good intentions, i.e. to take them to a shelter. I'm not sure how regular shelters will cope with these animals...

I'm hoping the neighbours will alert the police or the RSPCA at some point because the hybrids have already been a problem for them when they were free roaming, I think they killed their cat and got into the chicken coop...I reckon if they find out that the family is planning to get another one, they will have something to say about it. Now, those two live in a 10x10x10 foot pen with a concrete floor and a roof, so yeah, it's not very big. Thing is, it's not like they're in the public eye, the house has a fair bit of land surrounding it and you would never see the hybrids unless you were let onto the land. It's not like any random person would see them and notice how they are kept.

What annoys me that these animals are advertised as if they were just a fancy breed of dog and people are sometimes led to believe they can be kept just like a regular dog. When 99% of the time that isn't the case.

[StarlightSerenity]

Well, I personally would never attempt to 'liberate' those hybrids, as they attack everything and everyone who isn't a member of the girl's family [only including the family members who live on the property, they are very territorial] and I hope no one tries to steal them or anything like that because I can only imagine what would happen to that person who went in their enclosure. Even if they had good intentions, i.e. to take them to a shelter. I'm not sure how regular shelters will cope with these animals...

I never said anyone should do anything like that :confused:

I'm hoping the neighbours will alert the police or the RSPCA at some point because the hybrids have already been a problem for them when they were free roaming, I think they killed their cat and got into the chicken coop...I reckon if they find out that the family is planning to get another one, they will have something to say about it. Now, those two live in a 10x10x10 foot pen with a concrete floor and a roof, so yeah, it's not very big. Thing is, it's not like they're in the public eye, the house has a fair bit of land surrounding it and you would never see the hybrids unless you were let onto the land. It's not like any random person would see them and notice how they are kept.Why don't you just report them to the RSPCA? They won't be told who reported them. If the neighbours have had problems then the owners will have quite a few people who could have done it so won't automatically think it's you.

I think knowing something like this is going on and not reporting it is getting close to being just as bad as doing it to them yourself.

What annoys me that these animals are advertised as if they were just a fancy breed of dog and people are sometimes led to believe they can be kept just like a regular dog. When 99% of the time that isn't the case.I highly doubt many of them actually are half wolves. Sorry, I just don't think most of them are. They're more likely using it as a sales pitch.

Do you know of any groups or anything then or not? If you've been looking into it for so long surely you know of someone campaigning against breeding/selling/owning them?

[p_anda]

Another thing is the recent increase in dog-fighting in this country... I think a lot of these idiots will see hybrids as an ideal candidate to be used. :( Considering most fighting breeds are now banned or you need a special permit to own one. It's easier to acquire a hybrid.

[p_anda]

I never said anyone should do anything like that :confused:

I'm not saying you did, sorry and I wasn't implying that. It was just something that came to mind.

Why don't you just report them to the RSPCA? They won't be told who reported them. If the neighbours have had problems then the owners will have quite a few people who could have done it so won't automatically think it's you.

I think knowing something like this is going on and not reporting it is getting close to being just as bad as doing it to them yourself.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with that. I'm not even sure anything would be done apart from them being fined for not having a license...they are fed, watered, treated by a vet and get regular walks. Being locked in a pen won't warrant them being taken away. I think that unless the people who are personally affected by their behaviour complain, it will be just my word against theirs and me making accusations that may or may not be supported/validated. Also, me living a few hundred miles away won't help.

I highly doubt many of them actually are half wolves. Sorry, I just don't think most of them are. They're more likely using it as a sales pitch.

Do you know of any groups or anything then or not? If you've been looking into it for so long surely you know of someone campaigning against breeding/selling/owning them?

I don't know how many of them are actualy half wolves, you're right about that, but I don't see how that's directly relevant. Clearly, some people are gullable and get scammed, but then there will be plenty of others who get the real deal and run into problems.