winter white/campbells

[mrnibblesmommy]

my fb friend says she crossbred her winter white boy with one of her campbell's girls and now has at least two little ones. she wants to be put in touch with someone here who is a "dwarfie breeder" and i know absolutely nothing about it so could one of you help me out? if so please PM your email addy for her, thank you in advance if you chooose to help me out :) she's really needing advice/help thank you !

[Michelle89]

I know absaloutly nothing on breeding apart from you should never cross breed and never breed unless you know what your doing. Was it an accident? I'm sure there are people on here that will know how to help but I think you should tell your friend not to do it again hope the babies are ok and she gets the help she needs xxx

[Charley101]

I don't think you are mean't to cross breed either as it can result in numerous health problems... Bella is more than likely a hybrid, and possibly Noah too, so they are prone to diabetes which can be very bad in hamsters.

I'm sure there are members on here who will be able to offer some advice.

[Erin Loves Dwarf Hamsters]

Have you thought about encouraging your friend to join the forum MNM? It might be more of a help to her in the long term than just having one person to email who may not know every answer. I think that would be a good option for her and the pups. :)

I really do hope it was some kind of accident as purposefully breeding hybrids is not only wrong but very dangerous and to do it on purpose puts the lives of mother and pups in serious danger plus it risks the pups being prone to some serious and sometimes life threatening illnesses as they get older. Perhaps having her read this article will make her think twice in future if this was a planned event - Hybrid Dwarfs - Harvey Hams (http://harveyhams.weebly.com/hybrid-dwarfs.html)

[kyrilliondaemon]

If that doesn't make her think twice then make her watch Pippys video. Its the most heartbreaking video I've seen and really, really makes you think.
Also made Pippy into my favourite of everyone else's hamsters, brave little hybrid that she is. (I hope Erin doesn't mind me mentioning her but she's the best example of why breeding them is bad that I know)

I'd suggest she joined the forum and got advice from here :)

[mrnibblesmommy]

from my pal: Beth Halbrook
thank you for your help! I looked up some info on crossbreeds and it sounds like I made a newbie gaf. I wasn't really expecting this pair to have babies, I thought crossbreeding wasn't easy to achieve, I had been planning to get a siberian girl for my siberian boy and another campbell's boy for the girl. They got along though, and I figured they'd be happier keeping each other company until I got the right mates.

[mrnibblesmommy]

i made the suggestion she join the forum here and hopefully she will :) thanks for all your help guys!! :) and btw, since i last posted niblet, higley, taffy and mr nibbles have all passed away :(

[mrnibblesmommy]

im down to 5/10 hamsters. all i've got left are persimmon, nessie and keebler (the 3 girls) and pipsqueak and squeakers. i plan to get a new girl soon and mate her with squeakers, and have generation 3 of the niblet hamsters. LOL. i plan to keep the mr nibbles line going forever :)

[Dichroic]

Hello, I'm the friend Amanda mentioned.

I am a sugar glider breeder, I work with pedigrees worth thousands of dollars, so I understand about the importance of responsible breeding. This was just, in short, a mistake. I don't want it to happen again, so I asked Amanda for help getting in contact with someone that could guide me on the safest way to fix this problem without endangering the babies.

When I first got my dwarfies, I didn't even realize they were different species. I didn't realize there even *were* different species, which is why I bought before I did research. I tried to identify their colors because so many of them reminded me of sugar glider color variants, but I found out with my research that it works differently than I thought it did. The original group I had was 2 campbell's females and one siberian male. The info that I found gave me the impression that crossbreeding siberians to campbell's was physically unlikely to happen, a rare occurrence rather than a bad one, so I didn't expect the two to actually achieve it. I got a campbell's male for one of the females after consulting with the pet store to make sure they were not related, but the siberian females are still on backorder. With sugar gliders, having a lone glider is cruel, so I thought it would be better to keep the two together until I could find them acceptable mates. After doing more research since these babies have popped up, I now realize that it is easier to achieve than I thought, the real issues come from genetic defects or health problems in the crossbred hamsters themselves. I also understand there is no reason for this to be done, the coat color looks pretty, but as with my gliders, coat color always comes second to health and ethical breeding.

I had read that campbell's males are good fathers, but siberian males are booted from the nest for the first few days. When I realized that there were babies (2, I believe), I pulled the male out just to be safe until I could find someone more experienced with dwarfie breeding to advise me on how to proceed. Daddy hammy escaped his temporary enclosure last night, but I had it on top of their tank and he hopped right back into the tank. I gave mama a treat when I realized what happened to get her off the nest for a moment and there are still 2 babies. I think if these little ones pull through I'll be keeping them as personal pets rather than homing them, so I can be sure they are not used for breeding. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[Michelle89]

I'm very glad you have come to the forum for advice :) welcome to the forum and I hope that the breeders on hear can help you :) I'm sure you will find this forum helpful as you clearly love your animals xxx

[Dichroic]

I went looking for the video you mentioned above, Pippy's video...I found an account on youtube called ErinsHamsters, it has "Pippy the Crossbred Dwarf" in several videos, but I think I must not be finding the right ones. The hamster I see doesn't seem to have any problems, or maybe I'm missing them? Which is the video you're talking about? I want to be as prepared as possible if these little ones come out unhealthy.

[Dichroic]

I did find the right videos, I'm so sad to hear that crossbreeds sometimes come out so unhealthy. I am really starting to think hamster breeding isn't the best idea, since I haven't been able to find any hamster breeders nearby...honestly I was looking for something less complicated than gliders but after reading through some of the posts in the breeding forum I realize that there really are quite a few problems that can pop up genetically. I am grateful I found this forum so I could learn from my mistake and not repeat it.

[Erin Loves Dwarf Hamsters]

Yeah that's my Youtube channel Dichroic, apart from the video explaining what she goes through I have never videoed her in one of her fits (not full on at least) because I think its wrong to do so and then post it on a website made for entertainment as I know that some people would say horrible things about her (I get really nasty comments saying I should feed her to snakes, thank god for the delete/report button) plus I like keeping my channel light hearted so I film her while she is being a normal and happy hamster to show that just because they may have problems that doesn't mean they can't live a happy enough life. The chances of your hams ending up with severe problems is fairly slim (diabetes is the most likely risk) but that risk is still there and does still effect a lot of hams, Ive actually been in contact with quite a few people whos hybrids are exactly like Pippy and they are wonderfully supportive of giving even these hybrids a chance in life.

Anyway I'm glad you are rethinking breeding again, hopefully these babies should be alright just make sure they get fed low sugar diets and remove anything yellow and a lot of the seeds from their hamster mix, replace it with cooked or dried pasta, lentils and other suggestions you will find in the feeding forum just to help them avoid developing diabetes. Watch out for any repetitive behaviour and do be aware that as the male did get back in with the female and he was there after the babies were born she could easily have another litter on its way in the next couple of weeks so just keep an eye on her.

Welcome to the forum btw, you should learn a ton here :)

[Kissa]

You've had a lot of good advise, but I just wanted to say, if you do decide to breed hamsters in the future, pet shops are not the place to get stock. Dwarf hamsters in pet shops are rarely pure-bred, so it's likely that the parents are hybrids as well as the pups. The only way to get pure stock is from a reputable breeder :) Plus the lack of history with pet shop stock doesn't make them ideal breeding candidates either.

[kyrilliondaemon]

Welcome to the forum anyway, and I'm glad you're learning here :)

Pippy is usually seen as perfectly normal though, she's a brilliant little ham :D We've got four hybrids and they're happy and fairly healthy. The only issue so far is a near-definetly not genetic problem but thats just more proof of how its all down to the luck of the individual hamsters really.

[Dichroic]

Sorry I didn't get back to post yesterday, I was getting my computer fixed :)

Erin, I know how hard it can be to watch a little life like that suffer because of needlessly bad breeding. I had three gliders that had a terrible genetic problem, caused by completely pointless inbreeding on another breeder's part. They had obvious neurological issues, they would run in circles, bob their heads, and were only able to be still when they were asleep. They couldn't jump or glide because their equilibrium was oriented upside down, they felt like they were right side up when they were on their backs. My poor little ones only barely made it to 1/3 of their life expectancy. They will always have a very special place in my heart. Their condition was never diagnosed, and circumstances have not been right yet to get one of these afflicted gliders in for a necropsy. I have a few videos of them tucked away for educational purposes and help identifying the gene when it does come back to the surface, but I've never been brave enough to post them on YouTube.

Unfortunately, the glider breeding community still has a lot of ethical issues. If a genetic issue is found, it's more likely to be tucked under the rug and the carrying pair to be split and given new mates so the breeder doesn't have to worry about their reputation or losing the value of their expensive breeders. Because of the impatience of some of our founding breeders, our bloodlines have some serious issues that will be very difficult to overcome. The genetic issue my three had has popped up in multiple places further down the same bloodline. Some are taking it seriously and they are very careful when working with those lines. Unfortunately, many disregard the carriers we have identified and continue to breed and spread the gene. I hope that some day we will be able to put our pride aside and breed for the betterment of the animal rather than the price a joey will fetch. I have never been able to charge much for my own joeys, regardless of their market value, I feel it reminds me to think of the life I'm responsible for first and the money second. I think we could do a lot of learning from the hammy community. Kudos to all of you for building such an honest, informative environment for all to learn and collaborate!

[Willow's mummy!]

That's very sad that other breeders behave like that - I'm not talking about accidental mating, but deliberate splitting the pairs to hide poor breeding. Doesn't say much for their love of the animals!

[Lucinda]

Whenever getting a new animal, it's always worth doing all the research first, they can be very surprising even if they look so similar to another species :p

Good on you for actually coming to find out for the future though. Your hams may well be fine - I have 2 hybrids and fortunately have not had any health issues with them (touch wood!), so they can live perfectly happy lives.
I would just keep an eye out for any potential issues and take proper precautions :) Also make sure you have a spare cage for each hamster incase of fall-outs (and seperate the mum and dad if you haven't already - they will breed again!)

[Dichroic]

Wanted to give everyone a little update, daddy hammy was separated a week and a half ago to prevent further breeding. I know in gliders they will mate the day the babies come out of pouch, so I didn't want that to happen. The two little ones are doing very well as far as I can tell from a distance, beautiful little white things with a light silver stripe from the shoulders back. I can't wait to hold them when they are old enough, I think I will definitely be keeping these little ones. :) I'll get some pics posted as soon as their eyes open!

[GemmasMom]

Can't wait to meet the little furbabies!!!!!!! :)

[Dichroic]

I was surprised as heck today to peek (from the top of the tank) when mama was drinking and find tiny little eyes looking up at me! Looks like one is about half the size of the other, but both are equally active (and hoppy!) and seem to have all of their parts. I think they're girls. I'm not really sure why they look wet in the pictures, my hands must have been sweaty, every time they'd fluff their head fuzz they'd look worse! LOL. They're so light colored that I tried a bunch of different backgrounds to keep them from washing out (the tiny skillet did seem to do a good job, as odd as it sounds), here are the best pics I got:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/hammies/hammy%20twins/IMG_4131.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/hammies/hammy%20twins/IMG_4136.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/hammies/hammy%20twins/IMG_4103.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/hammies/hammy%20twins/IMG_4109.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/hammies/hammy%20twins/IMG_4110.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/hammies/hammy%20twins/IMG_4114.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/hammies/hammy%20twins/IMG_4116.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/hammies/hammy%20twins/IMG_4117.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c215/neekitz/hammies/hammy%20twins/IMG_4119.jpg

Enjoy! :)

[Dichroic]

So once I'm sure they are girls, is it ok to leave them in with mama hammy as a permanent arrangement? Can girls co-exist happily? If I'm wrong and they're boys, can they stay with daddy hammy? Is it ok to keep hamsters alone with no cagemate? Better if they're alone?

[kyrilliondaemon]

Er... Dwarf hamsters can coexist happily but trios are not really advised.
If the youngsters are the same sex I'd probably separate them from the parents and let them live as a pair together. It gives them company but avoids the nightmare that keeping a trio can be. If they're different sexes then introduce the male to Dad at around 4 weeks of age and they may be able to live together. The female may also be able to live with Mum but there's never any guarantee, even if the two youngsters stay together they may fall out later in life.

As the youngsters are hybrids with the same levels of hybridisation they'd probably be better as a pair than if mixed with hams with different levels of hybridisation.

One note though - You got the parents from pet shops right? Please don't breed them again. Pet shop "campbells" "russians" and "winter whites" are nearly all hybrids. Please don't breed them.

[Dichroic]

If you look at my earlier posts, Kyrillion, you'll see that I've corrected that mistake already and don't plan to make it again :) I'm just interested in making sure these four live out a happy life and are not bred again. I'd heard different things about what kinds of pairings were ok, I thought it would be best to get a clear answer from the experts here :)

[kyrilliondaemon]

I meant breeding the parents with anything. I know you won't breed them with each other, but since they're from pet shops they're probably hybrids themselves so shouldn't be bred with other "campbells" or "winter whites" either. Wasn't sure if you still wanted to try that or not.

I'm glad you do just want the four hams to live out their lives happily though :)

[Dichroic]

No--I said on the previous page that I was no longer interested in breeding hamsters at all, since I haven't found any local hamsteries and I had underestimated the skill required to properly pair and breed hamsters, and that these would not be bred again, to ANY other hamster, nor will there be other hamsters breeding in my home. :)

[kyrilliondaemon]

Ah ok, must've missed that one.

[obscura]

I know absaloutly nothing on breeding apart from you should never cross breed and never breed unless you know what your doing.

Agreed! I read a lot of warnings about cross breeding Campbell's and WW's, yet so many people have "hybrid" hamsters.

Glad you've decided not to breed more hammies :) Hope the babies are healthy and live happy lives!

Those little ones are sooo adorable! Very pretty color!

[GemmasMom]

Such cute little muchkins!!!!!!! xxxxxxxxxxx and I have a mom and 4 daughters from 2 litters living together. they are hybrids as well. I don't know much about colonies, as they were already living together when I got them from the shelter. Whatever you decide, just be prepared to separate at any given moment!