Fighting - seperation advice - Quick update

[Gust0o]

My two WW boys, Tupac and Biggie, have - literally overnight - taken a dislike to each other.

We have, as is to be expected, had the odd fight in the time we've had them, normally over some item or other - a treat, the wheel, etc.

Those have been easy to sort, and of short duration, with little damage done - however, this seems to have no object, and has produced some injuries. I've put them in their travel bins, and have treated the wounds, but am wondering how to progress.

Am loathe to seperate, as they've been together since birth. They're not the most social of hamsters, in that they've long-since stopped sleeping together, or playing - but they enjoy time out of the cage together, and haven't been big fans of being seperated previously (when moving, etc).

So, advice?

I think I've got two immediate options - continue in single cage, and observe; or seperate now.

This might be beneficial, as Tupac's the smaller of the two, and would allow me to manage his diet better.

I've also got plenty of questions!

Would a larger cage help? They were in a Rody when we originally got them, and have showed little territorial inclination - until now, if it is territory they're fighting over.

Would reintroduction be impossible? If I could seperate, sort Tupac, would it be impossible to get them back together?

All help appreciated!

[souffle]

This is a very common occurrence Gus. What age are they? We separated ours at about 4 months when Kipton did some nasty damage to Bingley. His back fur has never grown in right since. You could try and put them back but generally the rule of thumb with WW is if blood is drawn they need separated. I must say ours are, in my opinion, much more content alone. Bingley was always hiding from Kippers before and now is is always out and about doing his own thing. Kippers put on weight and condition (as you may have noticed by his show successes) as he was no longer on the defensive any more. We feel much more comfortable knowing we are not going to come home to a massacre too as they can kill each other with a really bad fight. You can't watch them all the time gus and now they are separate and one is wounded you may find the other will pick on him more. I would get another rody or similar and keep them singly. :? Ours were in a large Gabber with two of everything etc and it still did not work out. You will likely find they are much more sociable alone.....ours were.

[Gust0o]

They're approx. 6 months - very approx. as they're pet shop hammies.

Tupac is at a disadvantage, being the smaller of the two hammies; but his activity levels mean he hogs the available toys. He's given as good as he's got, from the look of Biggie.

I think Tupac has been running away, mind, as the bulk of his injuries are in a very tender area.

Biggie has been moved to a new cage - it's a wired one we have spare; I'll have to Rody shop next week.

Gutted :cry:

It's for the best though :)

[souffle]

Don't know what you have done about the wounds but LMDH who has vast experience advised us to bathe them once with cooled boiled water then leave them to heal keeping an eye out for any swelling or infection.

[PinkEmily]

You could try move them into a completely different type of cage, like i did with my robo girls. Like Tupac and Biggie, blood was shed but they have been fine since moving into their creepy castle, the cage that i deteste haha, typical.

I tried quite a few different things, even split them up for 20 mins to see if they would miss each other enough to get along when they were re-united.

[Gust0o]

Wounds-wise, I've bathed them in a cooled boiled water - much as I've done with my own footballing injuries! - and applied some wound powder, which I'd got after a previous fight.

I've moved Biggie into a new cage - perhaps it's new-place excitement, but already he seems more lively; he's even been on his wheel, a first for the Bigster! :)

I've left Tupac in their former cage - as the more obvious injured party, I thought it would be best to stress him least.

You could try move them into a completely different type of cage

I'd like to Emily, but I don't have one to hand - my spare cages are individual-only, and I don't think I could shift one of my Syrians from a Gabber, without upsetting them unduly. Given the level of fighting we've had this morning, I wouldn't like to risk waiting.

I'll grab another Rody on Weds, and get Biggie some more toys for his new cage - I hope this works, as these boys are very special to me :cry:

[Gust0o]

Well, we're at the end of our second day of seperation, and I have a quick update.

It seems to be working remarkably well - as said before, both now seem to be better at ease; they're more active; more curious!

I did manage a little experiment, however.

Playing outside of the cage, in their pen, has never been a problem - indeed, putting them in the pen was often the solution to stopping them fighting in their cage; and it was the only real occasion when they would be seen to play with one another.

Their cages have been placed next to each other, to allow their scents to mix - and I wanted to see what their reaction would then be in the pen. Would they remember the other? Would the fighting continue?

No fighting; just happy playing, together!

I'd be interested to see if this is able to continue, as it would provide the ideal solution all-round.

Do you think they'd get along if they live together in a bigger cage? It sounds like there's potential if they get along okay in their playpen still. I keep my WW pair in a Gabber and despite squabbling over everything and nothing, they seem to get along quite well. I'm wondering if Tupac and Biggie just need a bit more space as they "grow up"?? I've had experience with Campbell pairs in the past when moving them to a Gabber (from a Rody) has "cured" all bickering. WWs do seem to suffer from some form of cage aggression (well, my WW girl does!) so it might be worth a try?

Trust your judgement Gus as you obviously have their best interests very much at heart. :)

[Gust0o]

We've ordered a new Gabber for Wesley, so there's the opportunity to give it a try this week - on the weekend, when I'm about to keep an eye on them!

If not, I'm wondering if I might be knock a bin cage together.

Discovered a couple more cuts on both of them, nestled into the fur - they really had had a good go at each other!

[littlemissdwarfhamster]

From reading your posts I personally would keep them separate.

You have said that they have previously squabbled, they dont sleep together, they dont play together (in the cage) and one is smaller (probably food bullying) - all are signs that they are not happy with each other. To me this major fight was a time bomb just waiting happen.

By putting them in a bigger area they may well 'seem' ok with each other as they have more space to avoid each other when they want to. And distractions in a playpen would temporarily deter aggression.

I agree with Souffle and think your hamsters would come on much better if housed separately. They will most likely improve in condition and temperament as they wont be constantly stressed. At the end of the day we cant make two hamsters live together just because we think they should - they have to like each other, just like we chose our housemates!

I am sorry if this isnt the solution you were hoping I would add, but for the heath of the hamsters I would keep them apart.

From reading your posts I personally would keep them separate.

You have said that they have previously squabbled, they dont sleep together, they dont play together (in the cage) and one is smaller (probably food bullying) - all are signs that they are not happy with each other. To me this major fight was a time bomb just waiting happen.

By putting them in a bigger area they may well 'seem' ok with each other as they have more space to avoid each other when they want to. And distractions in a playpen would temporarily deter aggression.

I agree with Souffle and think your hamsters would come on much better if housed separately. They will most likely improve in condition and temperament as they wont be constantly stressed. At the end of the day we cant make two hamsters live together just because we think they should - they have to like each other, just like we chose our housemates!

I am sorry if this isnt the solution you were hoping I would add, but for the heath of the hamsters I would keep them apart.

I disagree somewhat. From my experience, a Savic Rody is too small for two adult dwarves and could well lead to fighting. I only say this because I've had similar problems in the past and by moving the pair to a Gabber, the fighting stopped completely. I'm not saying it will be the solution for Gus, but I think its at least worth a try given he's going to be available to supervise them at the weekend (obviously its not worth the risk unsupervised). If it doesn't work, or Biggie and Tupac don't seem happy, at least Gus gave it his best shot.

[Gust0o]

Well, we have a new Gabber arriving this week - so we've options both ways.

I will say that they both seem a lot more active in isolation, than they did together - am not sure if this is still fallout from the seperation, but we shall see!

[nooboo]

the size of the home is important, and yes small can cause issues, but oddly sometimes pairings go better if first done in a small home, and having lots of space to start with can be an issue! so much can cause fights, especially to picky dwarfs :P

Winter Whites can be really fussy about their partners, and I would always say if blood was drawn it doesnt matter if you convert a room into their home I wouldn't put them back together, even watched, but sometimes an accidental nip can happen...so it's all up to the judgment of the owner really!

I did have a breeding pair of WW that could only be together while we where around... because that female had killed two males while with another breeder....never went for our guy but we didn't want to risk it!

Winter Whites do seem to do well alone, if you want to try them again then do, but I would always think is it better for them to be together for you or for them, Winter Whites are well known to be all cuddles one moment and fighting the next, and unlike Campbells who tend more towards little squabbles, Winter Whites tend to go for the kill. If they seem happy active and fit alone, do you want to risk it?

[chase]

I know of a breeder who gave up breeding WW as she had so many fatalities within her breeding set up
Also customers telling her that same sex pairs she had sold some of them had once they reached maturity had started fighting violently.
Think maybe it depends on the individuals.

[Gust0o]

We're sticking with keeping them seperate - Tupac, the smaller of the two, has made some fantastic weight gains; he's now approaching the size of his larger brother, and his coat is picking up.

Biggie has also made some progress - being a bit slower, he was often last to the fresh foods; his coat has improved no end, and he scored 78 at the Brockholes show - being beaten by Bingley, on 81.

Not bad at all for a pet shop hamster, who'd been in the wars!

I don't want to jeopardise this progress, so we'll be continuing the seperation. Many thanks to all who offered their comments and suggestions here, it was all well appreciated :)

[babyboos]

If you did what YOU thought was best for them then you did the right thing
I always give pairs the benefit of the doubt as I do think WW should live in groups BUT if some(hamster)one doesn't want a cagemate I never force the issue and give them extra human interaction time to make up for less peer interaction :)