Looking for breeders in the U.S.

[Almi]

Hello all,

I am looking to start breeding again (specifically, Syrians, Campbell's, and winter whites if I can find some), as a family owned pet shop I used to work for has asked me to breed hamsters for them. I used to breed an occasional litter and sell it to them, trying to do my best with what I could find in the local pet stores around here after a search for any breeders around me had proved fruitless.

So I am not a novice by any means on the whole process and of course genetics, but this time around I would really like to get some good quality hamsters (preferably with pedigrees so I have an idea of what I'm going to be producing with each pairing) shipped to me from a good breeder. I am particularly interested in greys of any type and also yellows, torts and tri-coloreds for Syrians and blues and mottleds for dwarfs.

So far an internet search for a breeder that has what I am looking for and ships has failed me. I found one breeder that breeds Syrians and Campbell's (in colors/patterns I am looking for, looks like they have good type, etc.), but they do not ship. Does anyone know of any breeders in the U.S. that have what I'm looking for and/or will ship?

Also, I will be providing Syrians and dwarfs for two stores (the family has two stores, one in the city I live in and another 1.5 hours away), and they told me they generally sell 25-40 Syrians per month and maybe 20 dwarfs per month (though they might sell more dwarfs if I can provide them with some friendly ones). I am, of course, aware of average litter sizes of the species, their gestation length, how often they should be bred, etc. But to meet this quota of hamsters every month, does anyone have any suggestions on how many males/females I should have of each species and any insight on how I should go about it? I was thinking of getting perhaps 5-6 female Syrians and rotating their breeding schedules that so that no one is having litters back to back or getting overbred. I'm not sure, as I've never had to fulfill a quota of hamsters before.

Thanks in advance!

[Ankali]

Where are you located? I breed Campbells in blue black chocolate and BE lilac in self and mottled. I am in middle Tennessee.

[Almi]

I'm in Fargo, North Dakota. I have heard that it generally costs around $200 to ship hamsters from just about any part of the U.S. Is that true, or is there a way to ship them more cheaply? (I wonder, because I used to work for PetSmart and they never got in any particularly large shipments...if it costs that much to ship them, they really aren't making hardly anything on their hamsters.) Do you ship? Do you currently have any hamsters available, and how much do you sell them for?

I am not overly concerned with the dwarf colors I am breeding so long as they are healthy and friendly, but certainly the colors and patterns you breed seem to be more desirable to people. :)

Btw, if you don't ship or aren't going to have any hamsters available soon, do you know of a breeder that I could contact, or a website with a list of breeders I could contact (preferably ones that have websites)?

[souffle]

Almi please could you conduct any negotiations on price , shipping etc by PM thank you. :)

[Hamtastic]

As a general note, shipping is that expensive because it's done by airplanes, which have prices for animal transportation and require special approved containers, so the total does come to about what you named. Large scale hamster trade probably has specialized shipping arrangements, which could well be much cheaper per animal. Such as by a truck from some reasonable distance.

[radiocricket]

It does cost $200 plus to ship. The minimum an airline charges is $175 for the smallest carrier (that was Delta two years ago so I wouldn't be surprised if that has gone up). The cost increases as the carriers get bigger. Then you need to add on the cost of the carrier, cost of the health certificate and any additional shipping charges the breeder may charge. By the time you get all of that done, you can expect the total shipping cost to easily be $250-$300. The shipping cost would be the same for a single hamster as it would most likely be for a dozen of them. If you're considering getting more hamsters than that, you have to consider density restrictions on the shipping containers and add containers accordingly. Some airlines will let breeders ship at a lower rate if the shipper has a USDA license but you really have to push and it does depend on the individual agent making the reservation and the airline personnel on duty when the shipment is brought in.

Of course in addition to all of that is the cost of the hamsters themselves. I sell my hamsters for $10 each no matter the color, species, etc.. however if I have to ship them, the price doubles to $20 a hamster due to all the work I need to do for a shipment.

All that being said, with your intent to breed for the purpose of supplying pet stores, you're going to be hard pressed to find a reputable breeder that will sell to you. Reputable breeders encourage breeding to improve the fancy not breeding for the sole purpose of breeding. Novice breeders are encouraged to start off small with complimentary lines and expand from there as their knowledge and experience grows.

If you've bred before then you know what to expect litter-wise but have you really run the numbers on breeding to the scale that you're considering? Just looking at the Syrians and taking the low end number of 25 hamsters per month, you're talking about housing a good number of hamsters. For 25 hamsters, you'd have to predict having 3-5 litters available per month depending on litter sizes. A Syrian female will only produce a maximum of 3 litters for you if you don't overbreed her. So doing some math you'd need a minimum of 12 females for the first year, with staggered birth dates so that they're not all breeding simultaneously. That's taking a very optimistic approach to the litters though, realisticly you'd need 20-25 females with staggered birthdates and that's just to fill the minimum of 25 hamsters per month. Increase that to 40 hamsters per month and you're looking at 5-10 litters per month which increases the number of females you'd need to at least 25-40 hamsters. Then you have the males you need to consider. Sure you could have the minimal number of males but I've never liked to do that. I easily have one male for every 2-3 females. In some lines I have more males than females.

The next thing to consider is what you're going to do once the female hamsters hit a year of age and can no longer be bred (due to infertility and ethics). You'll be housing the retired females and then need to add a younger female for each retired one. The same thing will happen again the following year. Working with better lines, you'll have females that easily pass the age of two years and you'll be housing them as retired hamsters longer than they ever bred. You will easily surpass having 200 hamsters and that's just considering the Syrians.

One more thing to consider is the cost. As a large scale hobby breeder I can tell you that you can't make any money on the hamsters unless you're placing each hamster privately at $10 each, which just isn't going to happen if you're breeding quantities. I lose money every month, many months I lose hundreds of dollars. But it's my hobby, not a business. Every hobby costs money, I'm just lucky that sometimes I can get some money back for my efforts. Once you start dealing with vet visits, testing, medications, heating in the winter, electricity for the lighting, well, those amounts add up fast. Those are just the monthly costs, the start up costs are even greater with the cages, water bottles, shelving, lighting, heating and supplies. I'll never make back all the thousands of dollars that I've put into them but I knew that going into it and don't expect to. Realistically, the only way you can profit selling hamsters to a pet store is if you're cutting corners somewhere- be it lower quality food, over-breeding, infrequent cage cleaning, getting rid of non-breeding animals, inadequate caging densities, etc... There's a reason why commercial breeders do what they do and breed the quantities they do.

The last thing to consider is the USDA. Once you gross (which is different than net) $500 you need to become USDA licensed which may or may not be an easy thing for you to do, it will mostly depend on your hamstery set up. You can get an application sent to you here:
USDA - APHIS - Animal Welfare - Animal Care (http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/licensing.shtml)
With the numbers you're talking about supplying, you'll definitely need to get licensed as you are already expecting to surpass the $500 gross.

I know it all sounds like a great idea and a nice way of making some extra money but take it from me, that just doesn't happen. Make sure you're taking it on for the right reasons. I've had plenty of people approach me in this down-turned economy to get hamsters thinking it's an easy way to make a couple hundred dollars but that's not at all realistic.

-Janice

[Roxie]

Great post! *applauds*

[Almi]

Thanks Janice, that was extremely helpful. Like I said, before I was just breeding a litter here and there, and most of my hamsters at the time were special needs guys that I adopted, not breeders. (So I am used to having a lot of critters around, at least.) :)

Unfortunately, since I cannot find a breeder so far, I may have to resort to pet stores for now. :(

I do want to try to supply at least one of the two stores with hamsters, as I do think it's at least better than them ordering them from some hamster mill and supporting that. Btw, I did used to try and sell my litters personally, but due to my location I never had anyone that was interested, and I had no way to advertise. People around where I live would rather just go to a pet store or get one from Petco's adoption center, or pick up a free one on Craigslist.

As far as making money, maybe I will, maybe I won't. It's not too big of a deal. I'm going to go ahead and try it anyway, and if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. But thank you for all of the wonderful insight, and please, if anyone can direct me to a breeder that is close to me/has what I'm looking for/ships, please do!

[Jaybee]

Shipping (http://www.aaahamsters.org/Shipping.html)

Linda Price sometimes ships, shes in California

[Almi]

Thanks a bunch Jaybee!!

[radiocricket]

I do have to say that your response concerns me and an example of one of the reasons why the hamster fancy has declined so much in the US.

First, your purpose for breeding is to get quantities to supply a pet store. That alone goes against responsible breeding ethics. At that point, you're not a hobby breeder but a commercial one. You will need to get a USDA license which means you need to meed specific husbandry requirements. If you're just keeping the hamsters in a room in your house, it will be more challenging to meet those requirements. Goodness, availability alone could be a concern as when the inspectors make their unannouced visits and no one is there to let them in, that's a violation! There's many different husbandry requirements that will be hard for most hobby breeders to adhere to. Now all the current and past inspection reports are online for all to see so any kind of violation, even one as small as not having a lid on a trash can or having cobwebs in the ceiling corner will be out there.

You can see all the requirements with the .pdf here:
Animal Welfare Act- Part 2- Regulations (http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/downloads/awr/awr.pdf)

There are many specific areas that will be challenging to breeders but to save time I won't go into them unless you're interested.

Second, upon not finding a breeder to get quality lines, you've decided just to breed from commercially bred hamsters with unknown backgrounds. I could list all the possible problems from that scenario but again I'll save my time for now unless you're really interested.

Third, I am the only breeder in the US that I know of that will ship. Some other breeders have shipped in the past but it's infrequent and done when two breeders are exchanging lines or when there's a personal relationship between the breeder and the person receiving the hamsters. Goodness, I'm friends with Linda and still waited two years for a shipment from her! It truly is a great deal of work to put together a shipment of hamsters, especially if a breeder's never done it before.

Fourth, the problem with placing hamsters privately has nothing to do with advertising and location. People will find you if they want to buy from a breeder. I've even had someone drive 5 hours one way to get a pet hamster for their son. The problem is the public just doesn't consider going to a hamster breeder to get a hamster. It's so ingrained to just go to the pet store to buy one. Goodness, look at all the people that still buy puppies from the pet stores and there's so much more public awareness about why that is bad. If you've not realized that then you really haven't had much experience with placing pups and it again just doesn't make sense to jump into such a large scale breeding venture.

Lastly, you've clearly not thought any of this through. There's much more to breeding for pet stores than you're realizing. Again, I know it sounds like a good idea but it's just not an easy thing to do. Years ago I would place my pups with pet stores. It was always frustrating. A pet store may need hamsters now, but by the time you have pups ready (sometimes it's just two days later as I'd never place them younger just to make a pet store happy), they've found hamsters elsewhere and now you have a whole bunch of pups on your hands with no where to take them. Pet stores are very particular about the hamsters they do want. They don't want a whole litter of Goldens or a whole litter of Blacks. They want a variety, a "rainbow" of colors. One pet store that I still supply wants every hamster to be different- no two of the same color, coat type and pattern...and all males. It's the only pet store that I still sell to and even then, they only get 1-2 shipments of 36 hamsters from me a year. It is a great deal of work but I support what they're trying to do and if one pet store makes that change, perhaps more will follow their lead which will impact the fancy for the better. If the pet store you're supplying does accept say, 8 Blacks, 8 Doves and 8 Creams from you, you'll see that they just won't sell as fast and again, next month what are you going to do with all the new pups you have ready to sell them and they just don't need? Do you just try to get them to take what they can and let them drop those young pups in with the older ones? Do you start calling around to other pet stores that you've not screened just to get rid of them or do you hold onto them and suspend all new breedings until things balance out again?

The other challenge you'll face with supplying a pet store is you'll find that more than once, they won't need your hamsters as one of their customers has brought in a "free" litter for them. The pet stores do like these "free" litters as sometimes they're truly free, other times they'll give that customer a store credit which the store will still come out ahead with.

Again, there's much more to be said. I do hope you take a longer look at it and start of slowly than more to fast and end up in a situation that doesn't work for you or the hamsters.

-Janice

[Malorey]

Janice, Almi does know most of your points (stated in your newest post, haven't really read your others) as she has done this in the past.

[radiocricket]

She stated that she's bred a litter here and there in the past, which is much different than breeding quantities to supply a pet store. Supplying a pet store has more considerations than breeding in general. I do have experience with this, which my posts reflect.

As always, I believe that the ingretity of the fancy is important and should be considered and upheld in all breeding scenarios, no matter the species.

-Janice

[firedrake13]

I just want to add I really really really would suggest against breeding from pet shop hamsters. I have much stronger feelings about this now as I've just lost my wonderful little girl Nanashi (hybrid campbells) due to poor breeding is my suspision. I believe this was what caused a SEVERE rectal prolapse and had to be PTS as a result...she was only 8 months old...I got her from a pet shop at 3 months. In the end I know it will be the OP's choice on what they do...but I want to share my story here to hopefully prevent such a heart break from happening to someone else.

[Hamtastic]

To add to Firedrake's post, I have a ~1 year old winter white hybrid who's been diagnosed with kidney failure, which she must have acquired fairly young, judging by her weight loss pattern. She's been on very good diet and with access to clean water at all times--it just happened, and I also suspect due to poor health from inconsiderate hybrid breeding. She avoided developing diabetes, but that could have happened too. You just never know what you're dealing with when you get a pet store hamster.

I'm actually quite ready to make a very long train ride for my next hamster after worrying so much for my current--and that's just for pet purposes. I'd never breed hamsters with unknown history to avoid potential suffering their babies could live with. Moreover, if someone bred "high quality" healthy hamsters near me, I'd gladly pay a whole lot more than pet stores charge.

P.S.: please excuse my rather simplistic language here--it's super late, and my brain's barely working...

[firedrake13]

I know other members can chime in on storys of hamsters that were bought from petshops that had health issues, and from what it seems like that it does come down to the dwarfs in a lot of cases. What concerns me is that the OP mentioned breeding WW and/or Campbells, which any that are bought from petshops are more often than not hybrids I would consider them not breeding "stock". Maybe I'm being harsh because I'm still hurting from the loss of my little girl, but, again, I don't want to see others go through this.

Another thought I had lastnight is if this pet shop that these babies are to go to decideds not to take them, what will happen to them? Myself I had two Oops litters from hamsters that were bought pregnant (unknowingly), while I'm finally getting some rehomed now, I had many homes fall through... and found it quite hard to find new homes for them. Are you willing to take on the responsiblity of having these babies in your home should something fall through, do the extra work to find them good homes if needed?

[Roxie]

You may consider what I say "over the top", but......it's my opinion so yeah.

I strongly believe it's ethically wrong to breed an animal without knowing it's background. You could be setting these Hamster up for all kinds of health problems and suffering. Not fair on them at all. If you can get Hamsters and you know their background, then sure, breed. If not, don't.

[Almi]

Well, I do want to say that there is certainly not "one right way" to do things, but I do agree that breeding pet store hamsters is not desirable. However, I would like to get started immediately, because I do love breeding hamsters, and I don't want to give up this opportunity. I do still plan to eventually find someone that will ship to me, but in the meantime I am doing what I can. It may not seem right to you, but it is what I am going to do, however annoying and painful that is to hear.

I honestly believe the reason we have very few GOOD breeders anywhere is because all of the hamster enthusiasts and breeders convince the general population that breeding hamsters is not something that should be done by anyone except experts, and only in one specific way - and that they are certainly not capable of becoming an expert in the field and no one trusts them to breed "correctly." Not to mention it seems to me a lot of breeders just won't release their precious hamsters (for instance, just because I plan to breed and sell the babies to a pet store owned by people I trust to find them good homes) that easily, especially because a lot of them won't ship. If no one will ship to me, then how else am I supposed to obtain breeding stock? If anything, breeders should be encouraging people to continue good lines by shipping and offering them lots of information so they can start breeding too (which btw, I appreciate the information you have provided to me, Janice, though I'm not sure if you're truly trying to help me or just deter me). If it doesn't work out for the person, it doesn't work out. It's really not the end of the world.

I have bred plenty of litters, but was definitely not breeding on a large scale. By "here and there" I mean I never had more than one or two litters at once and sometimes I didn't even have any babies available. And on that note, YES, due to my location in North Dakota, the population is low, and most of the people that are here just don't care to get a hamster from a breeder. Sure, I have met people in Minnesota, but those were few and far between. It just wasn't worth it to keep breeding, and impossible unless I wanted to rehome the hamsters on Craigslist and/or keep all of the litters.

Also, if people don't know you are there, they won't find you! You have to have some way to advertise. If people are aware that there is a good breeder around that they can get a hamster from and it is put in front of them and easily accessible, they might actually make that decision. The truth is, though, people don't care to go out of their way to find a breeder - very few people found my website and contacted me. The reason I did stop breeding in the end was because I WAS sick of breeding pet store hamsters, and also, once I had a litter for so long that the pet store wouldn't take, I just stopped breeding and stopped calling them. So yes, I am very aware of that happening. This time, I believe I would be their sole provider, I especially believe this because I went into their store a week ago, and they had zero hamsters...a bit daunting to me to think that they are counting on me to fill those habitats.

Anyway, I must say I am an intelligent human being capable of reason, and I am not new to this at all. Lol. The only thing that is new to me is trying to meet a quota of animals every month. I'm definitely not interested in cutting corners to meet this, so I will try my best. Worst case scenario, the store decides they no longer wish to purchase hamsters from me. Again, not the end of the world. At least I tried and the experience was enjoyable.

I am pretty sure it is possible to be a hobby breeder and sell to a pet store, but I will definitely take into consideration what you have said, Janice.

At this point I am still looking for a breeder that will ship to me, preferrably next spring when it is warmer, or even summer, since I am expecting a baby next May. Other than that, I am well aware of how everyone feels about hamster breeding when it is not done in the exact way they think it should be done, because I have jumped on the bandwagon and preached the very same in the past. :)

One more thing. People are talking about "my hamster had this health problem, and I believe it is because they came from a pet store" stories. While it may be true that pet store hamsters are not as hardy as hamsters bred by a breeder, and true that some might be genetically predisposed to certain health problems later in life, generally it is partially luck and partially diet and other environmental factors that contribute to what happens to the hamster as far as health problems. Not to mention that a hamster that comes from a pet store does not automatically develop health problems. Some do, some don't. It can also be safe to say that perhaps the reason breeders never see much illness among their stock is because they take EXCELLENT care of their animals and feed them good quality food, particularly early in life. It's kind of like how human babies that are breastfed tend to have higher IQ's and less health problems (in the beginning as well as later in life) than babies that are formula fed. Things like that can make all the difference.

I have had plenty of hamsters that came from pet stores be extremely healthy and hardy (though still not necessarily a good excuse to breed them, just making a point)...and my favorite story to tell is about my three hybrid boys. Their mother was a random, nasty little normal Campbell's that was found in the PetSmart store manager's garage (I happen to know him, as I used to work there), and their father was a good-natured hybrid the color of a pearl winter white. Well, they happened to have an accidental litter together and produced two normal hybrids and one pearl hybrid, all boys. I kept all three instead of rehoming them, as I didn't want them being bred, and they were actually the first litter of dwarfs I have ever had, and I loved them. They all lived to be 2.5 years old with zero health problems, and in fact were so sweet (to both humans and their cagemates) that they never needed to be separated. Once they reached the 2.5 year mark, the two normals died of old age, leaving me with the pearl. He was still in extremely good health when he was killed by a rat that had escaped. No doubt that hamster would have lived to be 3...

Anyway, just my two cents.

[Gamina]

If it doesn't work out for the person, it doesn't work out. It's really not the end of the world.


Not the end of the world for you but what about the animals? Not the end of the world when you have litters born with extreme health problems or blind eyed little things...

Where did the pet shop get its hamsters from before or have they never sold them?

[Almi]

Not the end of the world for you but what about the animals? Not the end of the world when you have litters born with extreme health problems or blind eyed little things...

Where did the pet shop get its hamsters from before or have they never sold them?

...That's not what I was referring to. I was referring to one finding that they just didn't have the capacity to breed hamsters (care for so many, find homes for them, etc.).

I know they used to get them from a local breeder before...definitely not a guy that had much in mind when it comes to quality or temperament based on the animals I've seen come through the store from him. I think perhaps for a while they have been ordering them from some commercial breeder/hamster mill, but I'm not entirely sure. I only knew where they were getting their hamsters from when I worked there.

[firedrake13]

You say you don't want to cut corners but you're planning to breed pet shop hamsters without knowing their genetic history. That right there is cutting corners. TBH I think your being pretty selfish. I have currently 5 hamsters I've bought from pet shops, and a total of 11 hamsters in my home right now due to the current re-homing of the Oops babies from the two pregnant females I aquired not knowing they were pregnant. All of these hamsters and happy and healthy, but that doesn't change the fact that my Nanashi still had to be PTS due to a rectal prolapse due to poor breeding. Just because it's never happened to you doesn't mean it wont, and it's pretty immature of you to think otherwise. These are things YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT if you plan to do this. I in no way will EVER condone someone breeding petshop hamsters just to supply another shop. This will only help fuel more poor genetics to be out there...and having the heart break of any number of health issues that come along with these types of breedings.

These videos are just an example of what your breedings could cause:

Erin's Pippy (http://www.hamstercentral.com/community/breeding-hamsters/19817-warning-think-before-you-breed-video.html)

Think Before You Breed from SnickersTheFirst (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXJGjp7jmi0&feature=channel_video_title)

[LocoRocoPanda]

My hybrid, Rao, died due to poor health.

The thing is, poor genes lurk. Sometimes they can strike and sometimes they won't it's not fair breeding animals who could have potential health risks. All sorts of things you can't see!

These things can never be rushed to and as the saying goes "If a job is worth doing it's worth doing right." Or something like that.

Either way, you should always seek the healthiest possible hamsters for breeding and if that means paying for shipping healthy breeder hams, then that's the price to pay for good health.

[Hamtastic]

I honestly believe the reason we have very few GOOD breeders anywhere is because all of the hamster enthusiasts and breeders convince the general population that breeding hamsters is not something that should be done by anyone except experts, and only in one specific way - and that they are certainly not capable of becoming an expert in the field and no one trusts them to breed "correctly."

I strongly doubt that this is the reason. I think it's more like hamsters are by far not as popular in the U.S. as dogs and cats are, and maybe rabbits and some other animals. Those who do own hamsters are casual owners for the most part who don't necessarily know much. It's frequently children, who are given small animals by their parents because of the low maintenance factor and short life span (= low commitment). Plenty of people breed for fun without checking into animal background and health history. Usually just a litter here and there (like "oh it'd be fun to get hamster babies, I'll go get myself a boy and a girl") I highly doubt most hamster owners even know what a hybrid is or that syrian hamsters don't just come in "teddy bear" and "fancy" varieties. It's easy to see that it's the case just by browsing Yahoo Answers, Youtube, and small scale forums, and product reviews on major pet chain store sites. If they don't know that, they probably don't know about what professional breeding of hamsters is like or really consider it. Those who want to be serious about breeding can always become such--the information is available on the web, hamster forums are a registration away, and contacting experienced breeders for tips is not that difficult.

[Almi]

I guess it's a little redundant that saying what I'm doing is selfish. You bought a hamster from a pet store. Why? To have for a pet. For yourself. That's selfish. It's not wrong or bad, but certainly selfish. Owning pets, particularly caged pets, is selfish.

I agree with both of you. However, in order to snatch up the opportunity, I must begin acquiring hamsters immediately, or the store will just find another source to get their hamsters from.

This is why I don't understand why breeders won't more willingly sell and ship their hamsters to people that know how to breed and all of what it entails but just lack the proper breeding stock.

So, unless someone wants to help me acquire some good quality animals, saying that you "don't approve" in some way or another is just beating a dead horse.

[Almi]

I strongly doubt that this is the reason. I think it's more like hamsters are by far not as popular in the U.S. as dogs and cats are, and maybe rabbits and some other animals. Those who do own hamsters are casual owners for the most part who don't necessarily know much. It's frequently children, who are given small animals by their parents because of the low maintenance factor and short life span (= low commitment). Plenty of people breed for fun without checking into animal background and health history. Usually just a litter here and there (like "oh it'd be fun to get hamster babies, I'll go get myself a boy and a girl") I highly doubt most hamster owners even know what a hybrid is or that syrian hamsters don't just come in "teddy bear" and "fancy" varieties. It's easy to see that it's the case just by browsing Yahoo Answers, Youtube, and small scale forums, and product reviews on major pet chain store sites. If they don't know that, they probably don't know about what professional breeding of hamsters is like or really consider it. Those who want to be serious about breeding can always become such--the information is available on the web, hamster forums are a registration away, and contacting experienced breeders for tips is not that difficult.

That is certainly another factor, but you can't deny the fact that that is what the hamster community generally does.

And well, I am serious about breeding and doing it in a way that I deem "right." I don't think the fact that I want to sell to a privately owned pet store that I trust is a good reason to "not allow" me to breed.

I do not lack information when it comes to hamster breeding. I do, however, lack quality hamsters with pedigrees.

[radiocricket]

Looks like I have a few posts to catch up, I hope I don't miss any of the points I'd like to address.

Breeding from pet store hamsters isn't all necessarily bad. Great quality hamsters can be found in pet stores- where do you think most of my pups go? The problems that you'll see with pet store hamsters are poor natural temperaments, infectious disease and hereditary disease. Also, you may not have the ability to screen for breed quality animals from the limited number of hamsters available.

Let's tackle these one at a time. With the poor temperaments, sure most hamsters can be tamed but do you have the discipline to remove a hamster from breeding lines when you can see the temperament is poor? Will you really care? What if it's a beautiful Chocolate Dominant Spot Longhaired male? What if it's a beautiful Silver Black Tortoiseshell female that's in heat right now and you know you won't have enough hamsters to meet the pet store's demand otherwise? This is something that most novice breeders can't do, unbiased, knowledgable selective breeding. It's much easier to focus on the hamsters on hand today than to think about where your lines will be generations down the road. There is definitely a difference between the temperament of my pups versus the pups from commercial breeders. I can't tell you how many times store owners and distributors have commented to me about it. That is my reward for all my selective breeding over so many generations and years, getting them to this point. I will occasionally breed a pet store hamter into my lines. The difference in their pups' temperament is obvious. It will ususally take me 2-3 generations to bring the temperament back to the point I like it and that's with breeding back to my lines, not breeding in additional unknown hamsters.

In your situation, quantity is more important than temperament.

Then there's the concern of infectious disease. Syrians are highly susceptable to contagious disease other animals carry. It's why you see so many hamsters in the pet stores with "wet tail". Let's say you drive around and acquire 20-30 pet store hamsters to begin your breeding program. Do you have the means to adequately quarantine them? What about six months from now when you bring in more? Not just in separate rooms, but so they can't contract anything once it all goes airborne? What are you going to do once you do have an illness outbreak? Are you prepared for the vet bills, the lab testing and the work it's going to take to disinfect everything? Now that you're pregnant, you don't want to be around strong disinfectants. Also, lets say that three months into it, a hamster comes down with diarrhea. Are you going to be able to tell the pet store that you can't supply them with pups until you're sure they aren't infected with anything or do you just sell them and hope it turns out okay?

Even more of a concern is your being pregnant. Hamsters can carry LCMV which puts your fetus at severe risk of birth defects. Remember back a few years ago when those transplant patients died and they traced it back to a hamster purchased from PetSmart? They started testing animals and the whole distribution chain and they found infected hamsters and cavies from the East Coast to the Midwest? It was almost six months before the PetSmarts in my area started carrying hamsters again. When they did, they had far more dwarfs than Syrians, if any Syrians. That trend has still continued in the Petsmarts in my area. Syrian hamsters will carry the LCMV virus asymptomatically even though they are shedding the virus. Since I've started breeding, I've been pregnant twice and knowing that LCMV was out there, I didn't bring in any new hamsters during my pregnancy, not from other breeders and especially not from pet stores. A breeder near me did the same thing with both her pregnancies too. Just knowing this, I'd think you'd put your baby ahead of everything else. The LCMV was out in the commercially bred lines for who knows how many years before the unfortunate circumstance in which it was discovered and I'll bet if you go out there and start testing commercially bred hamsters today you'll find it again. I've been to a distributor multiple times and I know that if you started testing animals, you'd find all kinds of things. Even if the animals arrived to the distributor/pet store healthy, they're being exposed to everything else just during transport or housing. I've never seen a pet store employee sanitize their hands between handling different species. Not like the sanitizer does much and everything doesn't end up airborne anyway.

I do urge you to research and consider LCMV and decide if it's really worth the risk.

Then you have the concern with the hereditary disease in hamsters. You're not going to see those issues at the beginning, unless you have some very poor quality animals. It's as the hamsters age that you'll start seeing the problems- short life spans, tumors, etc.. That's how I started supplying the pet store on the west coast. The owner was sick of hearing back from people that the hamster had died, had tumors or started getting misshapen heads. The final straw came when she had to met a customer at the store on Christmas because a little girl's hamster had died. The owner decided they'd rather spend the money to get hamsters with pedigrees from me, have the shipped and charge much more money for them than to disappoint her customers. With your breeding scenario, you'll be breeding so many unknown hamsters and each will have had how many offspring before problems start to show up. You're more worried about filling the quantity today and not thinking about what may come of your decision a year from now.

The difference between what you want to do and what reputable breeders due is the difference in goals. I, as a breeder, work to produce healthy, well-temperamented hamsters as close to standard as I can. I have different lines with different focuses. Your goal is to produce 25-40 pretty hamsters a month. Quantity has never been a goal or consideration of mine. I work to produce quality hamsters and then when they need to be placed, go about doing it. You need to produce a certain amount of hamsters each month and you're breeding to meet that quota. Concerns of health, temperament and standards will inevitably be yielded to quantity. Your attitude is one of a commercial breeder- I need quantities and need to hurry and get them so they don't find a different supplier. A hobby breeder can supply a pet store but it's the hobby breeder making the pet store work for them, being an outlet for their pups. You're approach is completely opposite, the pet store wants them so I'm going to breed to make the pet store happy. With all the hundreds of litters I've bred, I've never once done a mating without a specific goal of improvement and/or knowledge. I've never bred for another person's wants. I have many months where I don't have any litters at all and I don't have to worry that I'll lose an avenue of placing pups. If you hit a month where you're not producing the quantities you need to fill a pet stores orders, then you face losing the pet store to another supplier.

I am definitely not against breeding and have supported and supplied several novice breeders. I won't just give my hamsters out to be bred to anyone that shows up with $10 though. I want to see that they have the same dedication to the fancy that I have. Hamtastic is right in that the reason there's not more breeders and the fancy isn't larger in the US is due to the nature of the animal. Hamsters are viewed as pocket pets for children. Not many adults are going to invest their time and money into a fancy where there's little recognition. The fancy has gotten so much smaller now than when I started years ago and it's from reputable breeders retiring, poor breeders coming and going, the economy, hamster clubs closing, disease, etc... No breeders that I know of will sacrifice their ethics just because there are few breeders out there. If we stop caring, what will happen to the fancy then?

The general public does not look for hamster breeders and it's not from lack of advertising. It's just much easier and accepted to go the local pet store and get everything you need, including the hamster. The people that get hamsters from me have usually gotten 1-3 hamsters from pet stores that were either nasty and/or died within weeks. They find me when they're looking for a better option. They will find you at that point and have no problem that I won't let them see the pups in person and trust my temperament assessment of the pups. Unfortunately there are just very few people that get to this point.

Lastly, I do want to add that you may be putting too much weight on a pedigree. A pedigree is worthless if there isn't selective breeding behind it. I could easily breed pet store lines for a few generations and produce a pedigree for them but that doesn't mean that they were selected for size, coat, color, temperament, etc... All it shows is ancestry. Here's another example, say I sold hamsters to someone, an Extreme Dilute Black and a Silver Grey and then that person bred the two together. The resulting hamster would be a genetic mess, and against breeding ethics, but they can turn around and say both it's parents are from HHH so you know it's a quality hamster. With just one breeding, a unethical or ignorant breeder will mess up years of my work and is the average person even going to know that? This is why it's harder to get breeding hamsters from a reputable breeder, you're asking that breeder to trust you with years of their work. Do you think that when I got started I just contacted the top breeders and asked for hamsters from them, much less so that I could breed for pet stores? Of course not. I worked hard and built up my hamstery slowly as I gained more knowledge and demonstrated my devotion to the fancy. It was at that point that I was able to add their lines into mine.

Also, I can tell you that if is this your first child, you're may be overly optimistic with what you can handle and take on. I know, I've been through it myself. The cage cleaning gets harder as your belly gets bigger and if I didn't have a husband that supported me and helped when I couldn't, I surely would have quit. Then you have the baby and there's no time for hamsters. I had thought I'd just put my baby in a bouncer while I bred hamsters and then your baby's born and you realize you can't put the baby anywhere near the hamsters. I know with these hard economic times, breeding hamsters for a little extra cash seems like a perfect opportunity and I really do wish it was. There's no one out there more than I that wishes it was possible to breed hamsters for some extra money at the end of each month.

Consider LCMV, research it and decide if that's really a risk you want to take. If you feel that it is then follow my previous link to the AWA regulations and see if you'll be able to meet those requirements long-term. You need a vet to contract to oversee your operations each year, a written veterinary protocal, a euthanasia protocol, a yearly exam of all hamsters, etc... It's not fast or cheap and again, I don't think you're realizing all of this and that's just their vet requirements. I'm not trying to dash your dreams but there's so much more to breeding hamsters to supply the pet trade than most people realize.

-Janice

[Almi]

I'm not taking quantity over quality. Sure, easily I could easily produce 40 low-quality hamsters every month. However, I'm being very picky with which ones I select...I am especially adamant that they have good temperaments. That is why I said I am going to -try- and meet the quota, because I am not going to just go out and buy hamsters that have an interesting color or pattern. I handle every single hamster in the store, and if there is one that is nicer than the others, I may snatch it up. I definitely stay away from all hamsters that seem overly scared or nasty.

Thank you for the information concerning LCMV. I have never heard of that, and we still have just as many Syrians around here as we always have. I had Syrians for my entire last pregnancy and was completely unaware of this disease. So yes...I have kids. In fact, I have a set of twins that were quite needy for the first 6 months, so I do know what it's like, I am probably more painfully aware than most people, since I was alone with them for most of the day in those first few months. Despite the twins, I was still able to care for the many pets that I had back then. If I can still find time to do things with two needy babies, I have no doubt that I will have any problems with one, and it is not that hard to pop baby in a baby sling to get some chores done, or do them when my husband is home. And like I said, worst case scenario, I absolutely can't handle it, and I set about the task of finding good homes for my hamsters.

What's the difference in selling someone a hamster as a pet and having it never reproduce than having it reproduce with a less-than-desirable mate? Certainly, if someone would actually sell and ship to me some good quality hamsters with good temperaments, that's what I would be breeding instead of pet store hamsters, which seems to be everyone's main problem with what I'm doing. So why is no one willing to get me started, if they so want me to do things "right?"

Btw, I realize what a pedigree is and that you can have a "bad" pedigree and a "good" pedigree. Which is why I have been saying "quality hamsters with pedigrees," not just "hamsters with pedigrees." Sorry, but I'm a little bit insulted.

Again, thanks for the information and insight, but I'm probably not going to waste anymore time on this thread if no one is actually willing to help me get somewhere, as I have better things to do. I realize I'm probably just one of those annoying people out there that you think is being absolutely idiotic and irresponsible. But take heart - I have read all of your posts and taken into consideration what you said. I still want to breed hamsters for this pet store, at least try, and I still want to get some good breeding stock instead of breeding pet store hamsters. But I have already explained to you why I'm doing things the way I am currently, so not much more can be said.

[radiocricket]

You are taking quantity over quality. Most of what you've posted about has been quantity. You've even posted you need to hurry as they currently don't have any hamsters and you don't want them to find another supplier. If you were interested in quality, you'd be asking completely different questions, but the only thing you're asking for is to be sent a number of hamsters in a variety of colors. In the absence of someone willing to ship, you've stated you're just going to go around to other pet stores for your foundation hamsters. Not the best option with Syrians, but an especially poor choice with Campbells and WW. Getting the quantity does trumph getting the quality.

I am really sorry you can't see the point of view that I and some of the other members here have expressed. It is frustrating for me to see another breeder come into the fancy with the wrong ideals but you're not the first and won't be the last. Again, it's just part of the problem the fancy faces.

Had you approached a reputable breeder and said "I want start breeding hamsters, I really like the Greys and Torts, what do you suggest", that would have been one thing. You're approaching it completely differently saying you want every Grey and some Yellows, Torts and Tris so that you can meet a pet store's demand of 25-40 hamsters a month and hope to make some money doing it. I see these two breeding scenarios as being two opposite things, I'm sorry that you can't. I know it seems unfair and unreasonable that a breeder isn't willing to supply you with hamsters for your breeding foundation, I've tried to explain the reasoning. I wish I knew how to explain it better as I know that sometimes it takes different angles and approaches for people to see things from a different perspective. Perhaps if you thought of it for dogs instead of hamsters. Say I approached the top poodle breeders and said I wanted a bunch of pups out of their Champion lines. That I have an outlet that only wants to sell my poodle pups and I do want quality dogs but I need act fast so I can start supplying them with 10-15 puppies every month. That you've bred a few litters of poodles in the past but now you want to do it with better quality dogs. How do you think they'd answer? I think it's generally accepted that the right way to enter into the show dog fancy is to start attending shows, find a breeder that's willing to mentor you, start with co-ownership, etc.. But you can't take the time to do it that way, you need puppies now so you're just going to go around to nearby breeders and buy whatever poodle puppies are available to start your breeding program. Sure if there's an obviously poor puppy, you won't take that one but if they seem healthy otherwise, they'll be added to your breeding program. You'll be able to make the pet store happy by filling their need but what kind of breeder are you really?

-Janice

[Ankali]

I'm a little sidetracked but curious..
Radiocricket, you said you would not provide someone with hamsters so they could provide for a pet store's quota, however when you release your pups to a pet store, you no longer have control of where the pups go and anyone could snatch them up and breed them to any hamster they please.
That was a really long sentence. Anywho, with all due respect - why would you turn away someone who came to you directly for breeding stock because you don't agree with their breeding practices and yet you wouldn't hesitate to ship them across the country to a pet store?

[Hamtastic]

She has explained in one of her previous posts that the store she supplies to goes by good principles and tries to do the right thing. It's true that anyone could go and buy her hamsters from it, but the idea is to support a good approach instead of just being indiscriminate. If one cares about something enough, it's a natural path to making decisions that favor the well being of the craft for the future, especially with time and emotions invested.

[Ankali]

I understand that, but I also know from personal experience that people don't do what they say. It's hard find honest homes without prior knowledge of the people you are placing hamsters with. I have never placed any of my pups with a pet store and did my best to screen and provide additional support to my adopters.
Unfortunately one adopter ended up placing her hamster with the SPCA without telling me, I saw her online and recognized her very unique pattern, and another decided on a whim that she would place the mottled male she received from me with two mottled females after every warning I gave her not only about the dangers of breeding, but also the results of breeding two ruby eyed mottleds.
Both of these homes had proven to know the care a dwarf requires and provided fabulous large tanks for them and seemed to genuinely care only for tragedy to strike. I communicate with potential adopters through multiple emails and phone calls before releasing a hamster and still end up betrayed in a way. It's heartbreaking and the reason I very rarely breed and end up hanging on to babies for so long. Most of my babies end up with family and friends. Pet stores may care about the animals but I doubt they do much if any screening of potential adopters. They may provide information about proper care and advise against breeding for the heck of it but I seriously doubt they follow up with owners on a regular basis except when something bad happens

[radiocricket]

It's an excellent question to ask. I have no problem being open with my ideas and practices (obviously!).

I don't have a problem with hamsters going to pet stores. It's the pet stores that allow us to continue breeding as without an outlet for the pups we don't hold back, a breeder would soon reach their housing maximum otherwise.

You're right in that I don't have any control over the hamsters once they go to the pet store. There's nothing stopping anyone from buying them and breeding. What they will not get with that hamster though is its pedigree. They won't know anything more about that hamster than the one sitting next to it. With the pet store that I sell to on the west coast, they only want males from me and do have purchasers sign a contract (that's become very common place now with any animal purchases), the contract does have a non-breeding clause that they added per my request. Again, they could use that hamster to breed but my hamstery can't show up on any of their pedigrees.

I have people approach me all the time for breeding animals. It's the motive behind the breeding that I look for. I've mentored many people and have spent so much time and money doing so. Some of it was wasted time, but most of it hasn't been. I suppose it wasn't wasted time as the breeders now know better, they just don't care. If I still let them have hamsters from my lines to breed from, it could be interpretted that I agree with their breeding practices and ideals. I'd have to sit and watch as they ruin years of my dedication and work within a breeding or two, generation or two, etc.. Breeding isn't as simple as just putting hamsters together, it's the thought behind the pairing that's important. Breeding is really an art of selection. Some people want to learn the art, some don't. It's the people that do that I fully support, even if they've never owned a hamster in their life!

Breeding for a quota is a completely different approach to breeding. Decisions will be based on the resulting head count. Sure you can still maintain different lines but overall, there will be many decisions made that wouldn't have be made otherwise if the pressure of a quota wasn't there.

-Janice

[Almi]

I don't see how someone breeding one of your hamsters when it would otherwise not be bred is "ruining all of your hard work." It's not setting you back or affecting you at all (you may not ever know it happened); it's basically just creating pups that would otherwise not be there. I don't see how that's destroying anything.

Do you think that's what I intend to do, anyway? Because if I ordered hamsters from you, I'd order enough that they would most likely be my entire breeding stock (if that would be possible for you). Then perhaps I might, if I can, find another breeder to get hamsters from for some fresh genes. Do you think that I'd order two or three hamsters from you and just breed them to the ones I've found in pet stores? That would be silly. I'd order enough from you so that I could breed the ones I bought from you together. I'd most likely rehome my other ones, unless there was something really special about them.

You could even sell me hamsters without a pedigree, if that made you feel better. Then it's no different from me buying one of your hamsters through a pet store, right? So you take no responsibility then. I do genuinely want some good lines. If I were so worried about just "head count" (I am NOT, I am more concerned about quality, and will probably not meet their quota, at least right away), I wouldn't be willing to pay the several hundred dollars it takes to get some good quality breeding stock shipped to me. Doesn't that say anything at all? It's not like it's impossible to produce their quota, but of GOOD QUALITY hamsters. Quality comes before quota. If I meet quota, great. Just because there is a quota (I was simply told how many hamsters they sell each month ON AVERAGE when I asked, it's not like they said, "produce this many or we don't want your business,"), doesn't mean I'm all that worried about meeting it (really it would just be a matter of having a certain number of litters every month, not a certain number of pups, anyway). I am not breeding solely for numbers, quality is very important to me. I want you to understand that.

Do you even have any available, Janet? I looked on your site and there was nothing, but perhaps you haven't updated it. Well, if are ever willing to sell and ship to me, and have any available, let me know...you haven't actually said no to me directly, so I thought I'd ask.

[radiocricket]

I'm sorry but no. I've tried to explain my reasoning a few different ways. I wish I knew how to make it easier to understand.

Perhaps after you've done it for many months or a year and it's something that you still want to continue, then we can revisit the idea. At that point you'll have some actual experience with having a hamstery. I know your viewpoint will be a little different at that point. Not that it has to agree with mine but once you see that it's not like how you thought it would be, it may still be enjoyable enough for you to persue in other directions with or you may find it's not something you want to do at all. You'll also be able to have working knowledge of what you've done and why you've made the pairings you have. While it's faster to get quality if you start of with quality, you can still get there within a few generations of breeding "pet store stock". Again, it's all about the art of selection- selecting the right animals to add to your lines, selecting the right animals to breed to one another. All the information on genetics is out there on the River Road Hamstery site and the California Hamster Association has many articles focusing on ethics, selection, pairing, etc...

-Janice

-Janice