Community improvements? Membership? A discussion

I'd like to applaud Gus for raising this issue , and echo the comment that it has been on many of our minds but we haven't known how to approach it. Its a difficult subject but one which I think we need to attempt to tackle unless we want to risk losing some of the more experienced members.

I totally agree with Gus that it's the lack of behavioural standards from certain users that I find the most concerning, distressing even. As Gus said, its not necessarily about experience or knowledge....we all started somewhere (I've asked plenty of stupid questions in my time and I'm sure there are plenty more left in me!)...its about attitude....and respect for others. Sometimes we disagree, and disagree strongly, so things can get heated but there's a line that certain users have crossed that is unacceptable. Its these people that we're querying if there's a way of filtering them out. Some of them flit from forum to forum upsetting people on their way. Is there any way we can avoid this or is it just wishful thinking?

I understand where Noo is coming from, but I really don't think this is targeted at anyone with learning or any other kind of difficulties. Without wanting to say too much, last Saturday, unbeknown to me at the time, I was the target of a malicious attack by a HC member. Fortunately, the people who "witnessed" this attack know me well enough to know that the premise was unfounded, leapt to my defence and the mods dealt with the matter. However, it caused me a huge amount of distress. Its this sort of unacceptable behaviour that concerns me, and I hope that there is a way we can find to preferably prevent these users joining in the first place.

[Spuds Mum]

Originally Posted by Matty Day

And how about a form of democracy so members vote on the rules? Instead of the form of enlightened absolutism we have now as the rules are more likely to work if member have a say in there creation

The thing with running the forum as a democracy though Matty, is that frankly, it isn't one! At the end of the day, this is Snuggleham's forum, she pays for it and maintains it. Therefore I think we all agree that the rules, and how open the forum is, is down to her.

Having said that, Snuggleham I personally feel, asks the views of the community quite regularly on what they would like to see, and encourages participation in forwarding ideas etc. I do think she does a wonderful job of ensuring that the forum is open and available to all users, and she is very committed to the idea that it should not be elitist in any way, the aim is to educate and share ideas between hamster owners whether the novice young owner of a single hamster to people who show and breed hamsters. The forum rules and guidance are clear I think and commences with Snuggleham saying

The Hamster Central community is growing rapidly. Everyday we have more users register to participate in the community. We are thrilled for this and welcome all hamster lovers! However the increasing number of users brings up some general concerns about proper conduct on the forum and website. Its required for everyone to know and follows the rules listed below. Make yourself familiar with them. Ignorance will not be an excuse. This thread will be placed under each forum topic as an announcement. There is no reason someone should “miss” it. We want to maintain a friendly atmosphere. Hamster Central is quickly becoming a popular form, known for its helpful users and encouraging environment. So lets keep it that way

I don't disagree with some members views that at times recently, the levels of behaviours displayed by some members have fallen short of the expectations of many other members. There is a simple answer. Rather than arguing the point or getting into frustrating discussions with people who do not really wish to discuss and issue politely, report the post to one of the moderator team and desist from posting.

The forum moderators/admin do have procedures for dealing with unacceptable behaviour, and until fairly recently have had very rarely needed to resort to these. However, the processes are there - and will be used, if we are made aware of members concerns.

Gus, as you have raised a concern, of course I will signpost snuggleham and mods to this thread. thanks for raising your concerns.

[nooboo]

i find the problem would be also how to know if someone will learn from things?

someone could quite loudly fight their side and protest but still could be actually taking the information on board and thinkig about it.

of cause i dont want experienced people to feel attacked or abused, dont want that myself! and yes i must say once again i have started to post less on th forums, but maybe more as i feel a bit...pointless is the nearest word i can think of.... either everything has been said or i dont want to contradict anyone for fear of causing offense...so i just stay quiet...and starting to think i should have again now.

children are that...children and can then be childish they will protest against something just because they are being stubborn but that doesnt always mean they are not paying attention nor learning, it just may not appear that way, it takes an adult...or a mature mindset to turn around and state oh i am wrong i am sorry i will change my ways, some can take things as a personal attack, and so attack back. i must say i have only seen a few posts i would call aggressive (maybe i have not been reading enough :S) and i agree we dont want to scare people off, and yes i did make it sound more cut and dry than it is with that statement, but thats the problem with forums, sweeping statements grab attention and it is all too easy to use them and upset. i know we want to help those willing to learn i guess if i had thought more i would have phrased it better to state its not always as easy as you think to know if someone is really learning or not.

someone can agree to everything you suggest and do the opposite, someone can argue the point and be rather aggressive and be fully taking the point onboard and implimenting it...just not wanting to 'back down' online....

the other idea is to have a section of forum thats invite only for more sensitive topics and a place to get moans and groans out, or maybe a rate my post system, but as workmad3 pointed out any system is open to abuse.

[Gust0o]

Whilst we're on the subject, I do feel we should celebrate how effective HC has been at accepting new members - after all, it wasn't so long ago that I was first registering; and now I know many of you on sight, and would consider you friends.

I joined; I observed; I learned; I adapted - and I'd like to think I'm a now a reasonable example of your average HC user. But I am conscious that my experience, and that of other new users - and we have some absolutely fantastic ones - runs contrary to some of our more negative examples.

But, just to stress, it's not being new which is the issue - it's the divergence from the accepted norms of HC behaviour, which could quite easily come from established members.

I'd like to find some mechanisms by which we might reinforce and embed that behaviour - which is why I suggested some examples above, including some I've used to good effect in my professional life. Because I want new people joining HC; because I want the community to prosper and grow - but in a sustainable way, which avoids some of the worst excesses of online forum management.

This is why I've avoided calls for tougher moderator activity against people who break etiquette rules - I'd like to see a community mature (in mind, and spirit, not necessarily in age - we have smart heads on young people here, after all) enough to drive this itself. It's not a democracy, no - but I don't think we see that as an excuse to disengage from the process.

Snuggleham's excerpt from the posting rules, quoted by Spud's Mum, is a fantastic summation of much of my desires - and this thread is my way of exploring how we, as the community, might look to support such.

It's good to see we're getting into some ideas - solution mode is always such a dynamic time

Spud, would you be so kind as to invite Snuggleham to participate, if she desires?

[Noodles]

I found this forum when I was searching for hamster products. Although I've had hamsters before, I was quite young and so while I loved them and did my best, they probably weren't treated as well as Noodles is now (much larger cage, baby food and so forth). I feel like I understand her a lot more, if you know what I mean. The fact that (I hope!) my hamster is a much happier, healthier little critter and that is thanks in large part to this forum. I have also learned about genetics, other hamster types and met some really lovely people who have really been very kind to me.

For those reasons, I personally don't think that it should be made harder to join, as people who are trying but don't know much, like me!, are exactly the people that this forum benefits the most.
Having to wait for a code is, IMO, sufficient.

While I do agree with a lot of what Gus, Mollz Mum et al(!) are saying, I would like to make a point about the criticism of the newer and younger members - as a relatively young member myself (though I did feel very old last Friday night but that's a different story!!! ) I try really hard not to offend people with anything I say. However, I use careful language a lot whereas some people on this forum are maybe not so careful and don't realise how things sound so their posts come out "wrong" so to speak.
It also wasn't a new member who was involved in the PM thing that I presume you are talking about.
There have also been posts by the "older" members that I personally found a little bit close to the line, especially when talking to a younger person, so I don't think it is purely an age/experience issue.

I feel that if people read through their posts before hitting the submit button, that really would be a good idea. Maybe the warn system like Bunsey and IN have on their forum have would "help" people to do that.

Sorry this is a really rambly post!!

Edited to say: Argh this has moved so fast, my post about age is now redundant!!!!
ELC - I decided to ignore the message you are talking about - I just thought it best to let it die; I hope you don't mind or feel I should have said something (sorry if so).

[Matty Day]

Just three things
1
I agree with work mad 3
i agree if science had its way our lives would be very boring and factual science thankfully has no right to dictate if it did wed be rule by elitist genius dictators of science (to see the effect of this id recommend that you read platos republic) thankfully we judge what is right from the study of philosophy and ethics and history

Secondly sometimes we have to agree to disagree not everyone a robot and no ones the same and this happens many time is philosophical arguments philosophy and ethics is life after all as we all have our own views on what’s good and right and wrong

3
Gusto0 if I am correct your using the psychological principle of deviation from social norms? this is dangerous in my opinion as sometimes society can be wrong extreme take the nazis for example. And also societies norms change over time

[Gust0o]

so I don't think it is purely an age/experience issue.

Absolutely - I think it's purely a behavioural issue; but it does have some assumptions wrapped around it, for ease - one of which is the notion that experienced (as opposed to older, note) members know how to behave, as per community norms.

I have noticed that assumption creeking, even with my own posting - for myself, I can't offer an excuse, as I don't believe in them; but I can offer an explanation, and that is exasperation, on my part.

Which is, on a personal note, what inspired me to kick this off. I don't want to be in that space. Believe me, I am an extremely grumpy person, and I don't think it's worth the risk!

It is fantastic that you take such care in your personal conduct, Noodles - that's really the HC spirit, and it's been very to see in all your posts

[Gust0o]

Originally Posted by Matty Day

3
Gusto0 if I am correct your using the psychological principle of deviation from social norms? this is dangerous in my opinion as sometimes society can be wrong extreme take the nazis for example. And also societies norms change over time

Ha, well I was thinking more Max Weber than Adolf Hitler!

A norm, in it's strictest sense, is a rule that is socially enforced - which is a common theme in human behaviour; and, within that, I was thinking of mores - moral judgements defining what is right and wrong, or what is wanted or not-wanted, within a given society.

I was using this as a mechanism by which we could gauge the desired behaviour, and frame our discussion for what mechanisms might reinforce that behaviour. Nothing else.

Societies do change, of course; and norms move with them. Societies can be wrong; but I'm afraid you're wandering, a little. Was it society, or was it Hitler which drove German culture in that period? A debate for another time, I feel

I threw in the suggestion of job design/people specification, which is a management concept, as a brainstorming idea - in the workplace such would be used to identify best-fit between candidates and organisational values, to ensure new employees are able to join the workplace with minimum disruption. It's not full psychological profiling, or any of the such, but a quick tool for making sure people fit the area they are joining; and wondered aloud if use could made of some of it to ensure new members match the community.

Pure food for thought, that one

I'm aware we're digressing a little.

[Noodles]

Gus - yeah sorry I posted as you all were posting (slow typer!!) - edited it now!!!!!

As I have said on another post however, I do think that sometimes people get upset about things that if said in person they would not be upset by, as you would be able to tell from tone/body language etc, that they weren't being aggressive (Obviously a number of times this is not the case but often it is)

For example - the other day I posted that a cage link was to a different cage than the converstion was about - that could be taken in soooo many ways - in an aggressive way - that the person was stupid to think it was the same; that I knew better, that I was criticising and so on BUT what I actually meant was that I can't tell the difference between all those Gabbers and Dunas etc from the pictures, and that I didn't want them to be disappointed when they got it (as I'd that very day bought a Duna thinking it was a LUx).
And as I was posting quickly, it was only when I read it back I realised it could be read in either way but if I'd been talking to them, it would have come across much better.

So I think sometimes people need to let things go as it is just a tact issue.

If it goes beyond that, then I think maybe the warn system comes into play. But as you say, I would also prefer it to only be used in quite severe cases NOT in normal disagreements.

[nooboo]

i agree re reading can help, but often issues can be missed i know i feel like i may have caused offense already on this thread twice, by simply not realizing how some will react to what i say, so i meant to say it but didnt see how it could be interpreted, or objections others would see.

Edit: just seen mattys post, and sorry matty but platos republic does condemn democracy, and goes for the rule of the philosopher king, who had to be experienced in war, not something really really want in our rulers today, and as for philosophy he meant had had access to the world of forms, which some could take as experimented on drugs. also important to note he was rather aggressive to certain types of government as they had executed his teacher for being outspoken (giving the young men a bad example)

people do have differing ethics, after studying ethics for 3 years in different parts of my degree a lot of the basic rules cross over, like Kants golden rule is very much a do unto others (act as a king in a kingdom of ends), which could be taken in a utilitarian view as for the greater good, and almost under virtue theory as to be in the balance point between two vices you would basically be taking others into account as if ur actions would repercuss back to you....

so simple things like taking others into consideration when posting on a forum this 'golden rule' comes into act, and is even highlighted in many religions. so then even if we difer on what is best to do for the hamster, we should agree on how we say it to some extent, not wanting to offend others...and not wanting to use behaviours we wouldnt appreciate being used back to us, nor would wish everyone took as a rule of behaviour.

yes as i have said some people will be more aggressive than others more because they cannot help but break that kind of rule, be it down to maturity or some other reason, but differing ethics is no excuse against being civil on a forum.

from a sociological point of view yes societies norms are in a constant state of flux, but society cannot ignore them due to this, we have to some extent live in the confines of these rules to stay within society, only way around that is to be an outcast, as a forum is a society of like thinking minds they only way to successfully have conflicting norms from the group would to be in a constant state of conflict which i am sure the group wouldnt mind if it was on hamster care etc and was stated in ways that obey the ethical rulings mentioned earlier.

edit again missed more posts since the repost...but.... i give up for the night! so just a quick re edit!

body language does have a lot to do with certain things, for a start you are aware if what you have said has caused offense usually very quickly so you can rephrase to get the point across.

i still am not sure about profiling as either these can be filled in as workmad3 said until you get accepted and may have no relevance to the person, or cause too much effort and so put others off.

it would be nice to think if anyone had a problem with what i said they would pm me about it, i wouldnt take offense from that i would rather tings were aired else i can easily go on offending without meaning to, a weakness that i know i have and i am constantly sorry for! i am shocked to know things have gone on behind the scenes i was not aware of (am totally perplexed by this pm stuff people mention :S) i would hope that people would just come to me and ask or even accuse me if they have issues, though maybe best in pm to keep the forum free from this? also i agree if you are having issue with someones post report it, not reply back else it can start to edge into flaming quite quickly and normally rational thoughtful people can say things they dont mean, just like in a verbal argument, but worse ts down in black and white to be reread and keep the emotions freshr far longer!