Question About Genetics!!

[Hekomi]

Originally Posted by Pinkpandavt

If the hamster parent doesn't carry the Wh gene would it be ok to breed him/her to a patterned hamster that also for sure doesn't carry the Wh gene?
Just curious!
So For Example:
I have a black banded who doesn't carry the Wh gene
and a Black DS who also doesn't carry the Wh gene for sure.
Would it be ok ethically to breed these two together?

Thanks!

Do you know they don't have it because you have a documented pedigree for them? Have their ancestors been test bred at all, for Wh?

Personally - I wouldn't risk it unless the hamsters have a clear pedigree for the last three generations at least. Right now, only one of my five current breeding hamsters is patterned. It's just much safer, unless you are absolutely certain by ways of a pedigree.

[Pinkpandavt]

Originally Posted by Hekomi

Do you know they don't have it because you have a documented pedigree for them? Have their ancestors been test bred at all, for Wh?

Personally - I wouldn't risk it unless the hamsters have a clear pedigree for the last three generations at least. Right now, only one of my five current breeding hamsters is patterned. It's just much safer, unless you are absolutely certain by ways of a pedigree.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I was just wondering what would come out of that breeding IF it were to ever happen that someone FOR SURE didn't have the Wh gene. That's all.
But Thanks!

[Nancy's Hamsters]

Ah a fun thread to work with here. As already explained by jemmalg. The DEW gene known as c(d) mask all colors when two genes for it are present in a Hamster. So under that white fur coat is a normal colored Hamster who also has two genes for DEW. And example for you
Meet Miss Virgo a lovely DEW who I had back in late 2006.
Attachment 27880
Virgo came to me from a dear friend who had to move and couldn't keep her. She had no known lineage at all so Because I wanted to add her good size in my lines back then I bred her to a Melanistic Yellow boy I had a very good lineage on and knew beyond doubt that there was no Wh gene. and no DEW gene so all resulting pups would not be DEW at all but all would be carriers.

Here's the pups from that litter known as The Egos
Attachment 27881
Attachment 27882
Attachment 27883
Attachment 27884

It became very obvious what color lurked under that snow white coat of Virgos. Virgo was a Black hamster who also gained a DEW gene from both her parents. A word of advice about breeding DEW and even more FEW hamsters they are VERY hard to re-home as many people don't like the effects of the bright blood red eyes. So you'll need to be prepared to keep pups a much longer time(possibly forever) then you would for other colors.

I'll do another reply to show you what effect DEW has on Extreme Dilute since we can only upload 5 pics per reply.

[Nancy's Hamsters]

The Extreme Dilute gene known as c(e) dilutes the normal coloring of a hamster. Golden becomes a grey color very similar to Light Grey. Black becomes a black cocoa brown similar to a badly browning Black but unlike the browning black the coloring is balanced throughout the whole body including the belly. BEC, Cinnamon, and Yellow becomes a white hamster with a smudge of cream, Cinnamon, or Yellow on the nose. Dove becomes a very light off white color which at first sight looks FEW until you place the Hamster on a white object like a white bin lid, then the off white stands out well.

Now the c(e) gene as Hekomi stated earlier shares the same locus the C locus as c(d) DEW gene. So you can have a Extreme Dilute Hamster who has one gene for ED and one for DEW and this will make a ED hamster look completely different from one who has no DEW but two ED genes. I work mainly with ED Black and until recently didn't know what ED would look like if the resulting pup got 1 ED gene from both parents, and was also Melanistic Yellow. That is until Habib was born here 9 weeks ago.
Habib's Sire is "Davin" a Black Band who carries for ED via his Dam Luanna who is Homozygous for ED and his Dam "Hope" a Dove Tort who carries for both ED and DEW Via her Dam Faith who was Heterozygous ED.

Habib gained the Black gene from both parents, The Yellow gene from his Dam, and the ED gene from the Sire and the DEW from Mom(this makes Habib a Heterozygous ED Yellow Black AKA Melanistic Yellow in many countries).

Here's Habib at 5 weeks old
Attachment 27890
Note the darker Yellow smudge on his nose and how light his coat is. I at first puzzled at him at 3 weeks old as he looked almost exactly like a Black Eyed Ivory but had ticking which is not there on a self Ivory Hamster.

Here's a few more pictures of both Homozygous ED Black(having two ED genes and no DEW gene) and Heterozygous ED Black(Has one ED Gene and one DEW gene)
Luanna a Homozygous ED
Attachment 27885
Luanna's Dam Shakinah a Heterozygous ED Black
Attachment 27886
A Luanna Heterozygous ED Black Brother at 4 weeks old
Attachment 27887
and Luanna's Sire Abednigo a Satin Homozygous ED Black
Attachment 27889

I really like the coloring of a Heterozygous ED Black in Satin but would get several DEW and FEW pups if I bred for the Heterozygous ED genes so I try to focus on Homozygous instead.

As for breeding a band to a Ds you'll get some banded pups , some Ds pups and some Banded Ds pups, as well as some solid pups too if the Banded parent has only one gene for band(the ds has to have only one Ds gene or it would have died in utero as Homozygous Ds is a lethal gene).

Unless you are 100% positive via a good 4 generation or more pedigree on patterned hamsters don't breed them. I had two Eyeless White pups born here from a Black Ds Dam and what the past owner of the Dam was told was a Polywhite Black Ds male. Two Patterned parents with one having a verbal pedigree and the other no pedigree resulted in two precious pups born with no eyes ,and completely deaf. Luckily they both have good dental since it is also common for eyeless Hamsters to have major tooth problems. It's no fun dealing with Eyeless White hamsters and you can't re-home them without full understanding of the health issues and the fact they seldom live a long life.

[Pinkpandavt]

Thank you Nancy!
That was Quite Helpful!
I was definitely just interest in knowing more about the genes of a DEW, and now that I have delved into it a bit I see that this would not be a good color to start breeding with as a newbie breeder! It is really interesting though! And I love learning about the amazing genes that lurk in Syrian hamsters! Hence doing a bunch of research before breeding! And thank you for that tip about rehoming the DEW because of the eyes! It is so sad that people don't like the bright ruby eyes, I personally think it is pretty.

[Pinkpandavt]

Alright so Hope you guys don't mind me taking a turn in a different direction! But I am trying to do as much research as I can on genes and there is only so much you can get by googling things. Haha
I would much rather get info from you guys who actually have experience!

What can you guys tell me about the Cinnamon Gene!?
I love Cinnies!
Also What are the standards for a good head/body shape, and size for a Syrian Hamster? What should be one's aim in breeding for size and shape? Are there exact measurements or proportions one should aim for?

[Hekomi]

Originally Posted by Pinkpandavt

Alright so Hope you guys don't mind me taking a turn in a different direction! But I am trying to do as much research as I can on genes and there is only so much you can get by googling things. Haha
I would much rather get info from you guys who actually have experience!

What can you guys tell me about the Cinnamon Gene!?
I love Cinnies!
Also What are the standards for a good head/body shape, and size for a Syrian Hamster? What should be one's aim in breeding for size and shape? Are there exact measurements or proportions one should aim for?

You're going to get a lot of different answers, as hamsters in North America are not on the same measurements and proportions of UK hamsters, and likely won't get there soon.

My largest female is 180g, but hams in the UK can get up to 300g.

Cinnamon is marked by the "p" gene, and when coupled with other genes, gives red eyes. I'm not sure the science behind the gene exactly, but cinnamons have a grey undercoat and red eyes, with agouti markings.

Jemma and Nancy can likely give you two different perspectives on measurements and type, both from UK and US perspectives.

[Nancy's Hamsters]

Good Morning,
The P gene effects the Black and Brown coloring in the Hamsters coat. It also as Hekomi said turns Black/dark brown eyes deep red as adults often so dark they appear at first glance to be black. However as young pups the red eye coloring is like the DEW colored eyes. Cinnamon carried often effects the coat coloring as well producing a much richer Cinnamon like glow to what the show standard requires.

Since Cinnamon doesn't show much effect on BEC, and Yellow coats the only visible effect on Cream is the color of the Eyes becomes red, and the apricot color coat is slightly lightened.
Masquarade a REC LH
Attachment 27896

On Agouti Yellow the Black fur becomes dark cinnamon brown and the eyes become Red and the color is called Honey.
Shiloh and Iris's SH Honey Band female 4 week old pup
Attachment 27897

The effects on Golden, and Black are really noticed as the eyes become red, the ears become flesh grey, and the Coat of the Golden becomes a gingery Orange brown with light slate grey cheek flashes, and light slate grey under coats instead of Black Cheek Flashes, and dark slate grey under coats. The Golden Brown coat becomes a rich orange/ ginger color and has no ticking, and is of course called Cinnamon.
Orangey an Umbrous Cinnamon SH female
Attachment 27900
This happens because of the p gene's effects on Black and Brown fur. Now Cinnamon turns Black to a dove grey color and is why a Hamster with two genes of Black and two genes of Cinnamon is called Dove. The eyes on Doves starts out very bright red but turns into a Claret red (deep dark red) as and adult.
1 1/2 year old Dovey a SH Dove who was also Umbrous
Attachment 27898
The only way I knew Dovey was Umbrous was her producing Sable pups bred to a Cream mate.

With Umbrous and Black Eyed Cream, Cinnamon turns the brown of a Sable to the Orange brown of Mink, and of course changes the eyes from Black to Claret Red as adults.
Spudlet a LH Mink male who introduced me to the wonderful color of Mink
Attachment 27899

As for size and body/head type there really shouldn't be so much difference when we all strive to meet one standard. I use the NHC standards and strive to produce a Hamster who could be shown in the UK and do well. You can go on the web site for NHC and read the standards that the NHC has set for what they view as the perfect Hamster. Always remember there is no such Hamster as the perfect Hamster but you can produce a Hamster who is very very close to perfect. The standard states the head should be rounded not pointed like a Rats head. The skull should be wide and ears should set wide on the skull. Eyes should be round and large not small and pea eyed.

Size is a big one as I personally have seen what effect on health and life span big does. Bigger is not always better, and I pray that in Hamsters they don't turn to a Hamster so big it's whole body and organs can't sustain it's health. I used to breed and show Cardigan Welsh Corgi Dogs where the Bigger is better goal has just about destroyed the health of today's Cardigan Corgis. With bigger size came in serious Disc issues, Lameness from growth plates that grew deformed from trying to carry the heavier weight. Heart failure because the correct size heart couldn't keep up with the demands of the bigger body. The biggest one earlier death due to the body not able to sustain itself and dying far sooner then it should.

I have had/ and currently Have Females that weigh in at 195g at only 4 months old. Shiloh is my biggest male at 180g.
However I feel weight is not a good scale(no pun intended) to use to determine proper size of a Hamster. A bigger structured Hamster will have heavier bones and if not in shape will weigh a lot more then it's body really should be at. You can take and average sized Hamster pup and Protein pump it up so it will seem bigger and will be bigger but at what cost to the life span of that Hamster. You have to look at Syrian Hamsters in the wild to really see what size and weight a Syrian Hamster was designed to be, and I can assure you there will not be any 300g wild Syrian hamsters out there. Again this is just my personal opinion and you may feel a big Hamster is the perfect Hamster. I like my Hamsters to be around 175g to 195g for Females and 155g to 180g for males.

Any bigger and there comes a cage issue in the USA as there truly isn't any commercially sold cage able to fit a Hamster any bigger.

[Hekomi]

Thanks Nancy, I learned a lot there as well!

You'll find differences in thoughts on size, but I'm glad to see type and conformation are uniform. I've been reading through NHC colour standards, and I'm starting to develop an eye for head shapes now.

Learned a lot, thank you!

[Pinkpandavt]

Nancy,
Spudlet is such a handsome Boy!
All your hamsters are lovely btw!
And Thank you So much! That really helps to clear things up, the pics help A Bunch!!
I will definitely go to the NHC website and read up on the standards for shows!