Update on my rat program! (with stinky pics) - Page 3

artgecko · 09-08-2015, 04:44 AM

Thanks! I am an artist... I actually teach art at a private k-12 school. I also like geckos (they were the first reptile to get me interested in the hobby). It is funny though, now I am mainly into snakes and only have 3 crested geckos. I'd like to get into leopard geckos, but my husband has issues with keeping live insects in the house.

This is my first time breeding a litter, so I am going to try my best to make good choices about my "keepers" based on their behavior and not be swayed by looks. The whole reason I got into breeding rats was that they can be such good pets if they are from good lines and socialized from a young age. There are no breeders where I live and people that want rats as pets can only buy untamed ones from the feeder bin at the pet store. Given that situation and the fact that I keep reptiles, it seemed like a natural choice. Please note that I am not planning on breeding the rats as food for my reptiles, but it gives me an alternative for rats that are aggressive or otherwise unsound and not suitable to be pets (in that case, they would be euthanized before being fed to the reptiles). I have seen so many cases of people trying to adopt out rats that are known biters or can't be with other rats due to high levels of aggression... I can't imagine trying to place such animals with someone.

I think the hardest part for me will be not getting attached to the pups until I've decided which ones to keep. Honestly, I'm already a little attached to them already, even though they still look like sausages lol. Not only that, but my husband is getting attached too. He keeps checking the other female to see if she has delivered yet (which she has not, but hopefully soon because she is gigantic).

artgecko · 09-08-2015, 07:57 AM

A couple links that are influencing my thoughts about temperament. I'm not saying they're completely accurate (there are other points of view), but still good information to consider.
Confessions of a rat breeder: Her blog about differences in temperament and tameness. I really like her point about taming a rat making it harder to tell natural temperament and how this can become dangerous if your "tame" rat decides to show it's true colors and bite at some point.

A scientific study on silver foxes and temperament conducted in Russia. This is a video, but there are many articles. Tame-acing foxes were achieved with just a few generations of breeding and no additional handling or "taming".

If I decide to follow these practices, I will need to not handle the pups much and choose those that react the least and show least aggression / fear without the benefit of handling them from a young age. I am not sure if I want to go "hard core" with this line of thought, but it certainly gives me something to think about.

artgecko · 09-08-2015, 04:13 PM

Updated pics! Nova (beige female's) litter at day 5.

Also, Stella, my Russian blue female dumbo just gave birth today. 12 pups. 1 dead (appears to have bled out) and 11 living pups that appear healthy. So far, no signs of aggression with Stella.
First pic: Stella with pups

Babies by themselves.

artgecko · 09-10-2015, 05:04 PM

Updated pics of Nova's litter. They are at 8 days old now and feel like velvet due to their growing hair. They all appear to be the same color so far, but I can't say if that color will be black, Russian blue, or something else. They also refuse to hold still now, so no more cute pics of them in a line lol.

Piebald · 09-10-2015, 11:13 PM

Pup pile! I haven't read the articles yet but from your comment I get the idea. I dunno if you need to go "hard core", I'm guessing you can have a pretty good idea of temperament with handling, and handling is a factor that needs to be assessed too. Love the velvety pups!

artgecko · 09-11-2015, 04:34 AM

Yeah, it is definitely a tough decision to make. I did not post it, but also read an article on the AFRMA page about aggression in breeding programs... A breeder had hormonal aggression in a male, but had bred him before it developed. It showed up in his lines 2-3 generations later even when selecting mates that were the sweetest and breeding from the sweetest pups in the litter.

At this point, I am planning on holding back 1 female and maybe 1 male from Nova's litter... I will pick for the sweetest temperaments / most outgoing. I will hold them until 7-8 months, then try a test breeding. If either shows signs of aggression at that point, I will end the line.. This will rule out handling or socialization as a factor, since I will be handling all of them.

So far, Stella (the RB female) is not showing any signs of agression while caring for her pups. I can handle them with her in the tub, etc. Nova comes towards me to try to bite even when I am on the opposite end of the tub, so I have to remove her for cleaning, handling, etc. I now wear gloves when going in her tub. I am glad Stella is not showing signs like that... and am hoping to hold back more pups from her litter. I can be choosier with her pups on conformation because I am expecting most to have ok-good temperaments already. I will be posting updated pics of her pups either tonight or tomorrow when I clean bins.

All of this picture taking is really making me want a good camera... I can't do closeups or show good details on the pups because of the poor quality of my current one. :/

hrl20100 · 09-11-2015, 10:33 AM

They look lovely!!
Can't wait to see them when they get a bit older!

Nancy's Hamsters · 09-11-2015, 10:45 AM

Just a curious question regarding the temperaments which may develop in Nova's pups.
What would occur if you selected The two pups you wish to keep and allowed Stella to raise them once her pups are a safe size that the age difference would not cause harm to Stella's pups?

I know in the dog raising I did I found the pups from a more Anti social Dam when adopted by my social butterfly female would always take on the adopted Moms personality and want for discovery while the pups which remained with the less social Mom grew up with many anti social traits and required much more socializing then her pups taken over by the social female. Pups tend to learn behavior from their Dam so I was just curious if this would prove true with Rat pups.

artgecko · 09-11-2015, 03:13 PM

hrl20100 - Thanks! I will post pics as soon as I clean bins.. I saw a little pigment on Stella's pups today.

Nancy- That is an excellent question. When I first got bitten, I messaged their breeder and one of the options I asked her about was fostering the pups out to Stella. She said that it would not make a difference, just to remove Nova while handling them, handle them every day, and that would help... Of course, this is also the person "who's rats don't bite".... When I asked people that strictly breed for feeders and don't handle their rats at all, they claim that aggression can be 100% controlled by genetics and that even if I were to foster the pups to another mother, their genes would out eventually and they would become aggressive anyway.

The article I found on AFRMA claimed that the breeder's aggression issues would show up even when she bred the sweetest rat from that line to another sweet rat.. That in one litter half of the pups turned aggressive once their hormones set in and in another litter all males had to be euthanized because of aggression (from supposedly tame / nice parents). I think the aggression she was seeing was more severe than what I am seeing (males that kill other males once hitting maturity, rats outright mauling / attacking owners that they once seemed to like, etc.) but I don't know if severity is linked to how genetic the problem is.

At this point, I am planning on euthanizing Nova as soon as the pups are weaned (4 weeks) .. I don't want to wear gloves every time I go in the colony cage and I see no way around it. At that point, I am planning on introducing the pups I intend to keep to the rest of the colony and see how it goes (male to my adult males, female pup to Stella and her litter or my other adult female). I am hoping that socializing with these adult stable rats will help. The real question will be if they show hormonally-induced aggression when they reach sexual maturity (about 6 months). Supposedly, you can have perfectly tame nice rats that show signs once they hit that point.

I am really hoping that I can handle and tame at least 2 of her litter... and that it wlll make a difference once they reach maturity. If it proves out that it is not hormonal / genetic and the female / male are still friendly when they are 6 months, then I see no reason not to use them in my breeding program. Until it is proven by another breeding though (to test for maternal aggression), I would not place even seemingly friendly pups... In the AFRMA article the breeder had sold a friendly pup from that line to someone and it ended up mauling the purchaser's hand very badly once it reached adulthood (I think she had permanent nerve damage) I want to be 100$ sure that all the rats I produce will be stable and to guarantee that, I have to hold back ones from that line until they reach maturity to see how the hormones will impact them.

Thanks for your interest! I am learning as I go and hopefully, I'll be able to document some of that knowledge here should someone else consider breeding in the future.. I wasn't planning on having to deal with issues like this this early (or at all) but I guess it just goes to show that you can't tell what genes may be hidden that will come out with adulthood and hormones. I haven't even gotten into health yet... As far as I know this breeder's lines are supposed to be healthy, but I haven't had the adults long enough for issues to crop up.. One problem at a time I guess.

I'm off to clean bins and will post some pics for you guys!

artgecko · 09-11-2015, 06:52 PM

Updated pics!
Nova's litter at day 9. Messaged the breeder and she thinks all are probably Russian blue.

Three of them in my husband's hands for scale. These guys are very mobile.

Pic of Stella's litter at day 3. There ARE 11, but one stinker crawled under the fleece. I'm thinking the ones on the right and the bottom guy will be Russian blue (look like Nova's pups did at this age), the ones on the left appear to be lighter, so possibly Russian dove like the father, and the one in the middle appears to have red eyes, so maybe beige or another light color.