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Old 03-03-2019, 02:51 AM   #21
souffle
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Default Re: Baytril by injection?

You said 0.2 initially serendipity. It wont be that much. I'd expect .02 for a robo (though I have always had .01 to be honest) It depends on the bore of the syringe the gave you so check that and the size it is. Read the label on the meds and if in doubt call up to check. Sometimes it is 0.2ml in 50ml water or something like that. They would estimate how much the animal would drink and this would give a correct dosage. I don't like that method but if it says dilute you can't then give the full amount by mouth undiluted or else you would overdose as your hamster would not drink 50ml of water a day for example.
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Old 03-03-2019, 03:08 AM   #22
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Default Re: Baytril by injection?

Thank you Souffle Yes it's .02 ml of the Bayril and .03 ml of Metacam. She didn't say anything about diluting it but gave me 1ml marked syringes with the 0.2 and 0.3 markings on.
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Old 03-03-2019, 08:38 AM   #23
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Default Re: Baytril by injection?

My concern with the method your trying to use, with the issue of the fact that it’s a fortified cat food aside (which is still a problem, despite the fact others use it); 0.02 mls of baytril in a pea sized amount of wet food is going to be detectable, and you’re very likely to have problems with a robo taking a tiny bite and refusing to touch it again - or even just smelling it and running away. Judging by the reaction of my rabbits & hamsters when they were on the stuff, baytril tastes disgusting - and 0.02ml in a tiny bit of cat food... i just don’t see it going well. I know it’s not pleasant, but picking him up to administer the meds would be a much more reliable method - and you can dilute it (a little!) with some broth from a food like Applaws or cosmos nature to make it more palatable (because the country nature foods, if they are like AATU, and ground meat and will be difficult and messy work in a syringe).

0.02ml & 0.03ml are fine doses - I’m just concerned that you mentioned the vet has marked 0.2ml & 0.3ml on a syringe. If she’s advising you dilute it this much, That’s a lot of fluid to expect you to get down a robo on a daily basis. My female WW is on baytril & prednisolone at the minute, and she’s on 0.05ml of both - but she’s easily doubled the size of your average robo. There’s a huge difference between 0.03ml and 0.3ml - the first is a typical hamster dose, the latter is a rabbit dose for over a 2.5kg rabbit - so be careful!
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Old 03-03-2019, 12:39 PM   #24
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Default Re: Baytril by injection?

Ok - I have solved the syringe business! The vet pointed to the .3 mark on the syringe and the .2 mark for the Baytril (which should be .03 and .02). Thanks to Vectis I have now solved this and it is a bit concerning that the vet pointed to the wrong markings (and showed me very clearly). She did mention about putting 10 doses into jelly set as a cube and cutting it into 10 so it's possible she pointed to .3 as a 10 dose mark - but then she also pointed to .2 for Baytril! And said I couldn't put that in food (as you say Emma) because they won't eat it.

Anyway I now know it is the 0.02 mark on the syringe! Thanks to a photo from Vectis.

Have already been through the issue of holding Nugget to administer the meds - he is a very nervy hamster and not that tame. It would stress him terribly to be picked up every day (and that's if I could find him - he tends to flatten himself behind his wheel up against the bars to avoid being picked up!). As he is getting older, I don't want to stress him and I'm weighing things up - particularly as I think it may be a tumour.

The vet said the same - that he won't eat food if it's got baytril in or won't eat all of it - but if others have found it works in something like the tiny bit of dog food then that may be worth a try.

Thank you Emma - yes I need to think all this through

Nugget is acting perfectly normally(as long as you leave him alone!) and not unwell in the slightest and active. He does look a bit ropey but doesn't seem ill.
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Old 03-04-2019, 04:55 AM   #25
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Default Re: Baytril by injection?

Thanks to all who have helped me get the meds right! My vet made a mistake. The prescription on the bottles clearly shows 0.02 of Baytril and 0.03 of Metacam and that is also what she told me. However she gave me two small syringes to use and clearly pointed out the .2 and .3 markings saying that was the amount to give. It was only when drawing up .3 of metacam to put into some jelly, that I queried on here that it seemed like an awful lot. And thanks to help on here I was shown the correct marking on the syringe (which is a 1ml syringe) otherwise I may have given 10 times the dose.

I don't think I would have done that as, even though the vet said new thinking was hamsters needed more metacam and had been undermedicated previously - it was such a huge amount that I queried it.

Anyway having said all that I have still had to check the correct dose for the Metacam as it is dog Metacam I have been given which is 1.5mg per ml as opposed to the cat metacam which is 0.5mg per ml. The correct dosage for the dog Metacam is 0.01ml (max). The 0.03ml is for Cat Metacam.

So I am not impressed! I have started the Metacam with Nugget as today it is clear he is in discomfort underneath and really struggled to climb up a ramp. The good news is he likes it and licked a drop from the end of the syringe. So I am giving him one drop of the Metacam per day.

Will start the Baytril when I have the tasty dog food to mix it in.
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Old 03-04-2019, 05:46 AM   #26
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Default Re: Baytril by injection?

I'm actually not concerned about the metacam dosage being 0.03ml, even with it being 1.5mg/kg. I don't know who has said that 0.01ml is the maximum dosage for hamsters being given dog metacam, but it's false. If the metacam you've been given is 1.5mg/ml, and let's just say the average robo is 30g, the correct dosage is 0.03ml. It'd be; (1.5mg/kg)(0.03kg)/(1.5mg/ml) = 0.03ml dosage. The intense concentration would be fairly common with animals in large amounts of discomfort. I think this is where your vet is coming from;I know with rabbits, they metabolise medicines far quicker than dogs and cats, so are usually given a much higher conc. for even simple surgeries. I don't think she intended for it to come across that hamsters need more (volume) of metacam than was previously thought; and instead (perhaps) meant to imply that they require higher concentration?

It's extremely careless of the vet to point out the wrong readings on the syringe to such a drastic measure - and honestly, that mistake alone would be enough to send me running for the hills haha - but as far as dosage goes, I can't (personally) see anything wrong with it.

ETA;
Just to explain where i've gotten 1.5mg/kg from; Pardon, it's going to get messy;

You say you were given 1.5mg/ml of metacam, so to figure out the mg/kg we do the following;

(dosage prescribed)(concentration/ml)/(weight of animal/kg):

In this case; the dose you've been given is 0.03ml, the concentration is 1.5mg/ml, and I'm assuming your robo is average by giving his weight as 30g. We then sub this into the formula as follows;

(0.03ml)(1.5mg/ml)/(0.03kg) = 1.5mg/kg.

Like I said, I don't know who or where states that hamsters cannot have dog metacam in excess of 0.01ml. But as far as I can see, it's incorrect and the dosage & concentration you were given are all perfectly safe for lil' Nugget to have.

Last edited by EmmaAndChester; 03-04-2019 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 03-04-2019, 06:27 AM   #27
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Default Re: Baytril by injection?

Interesting Emma, thanks. Yes it has shaken my trust in the dosage now with the mistake over the syringes as she so clearly pointed to the markings and said that was the dose! As she had talked about making up 10 doses in jelly (Metacam) I later thought maybe she was showing me the .3 marking for making up 10 doses. But obviously not as she also clearly showed me the .2 marking for the 0.02 of Baytril.

It has just left me uncertain as to what the correct dosage is and whether her information is right. Because she did say it had recently been decided they had been undermedicating Hamsters with Metacam (she said that when I queried the dog Metacam instead of Cat Metacam). So it was a higher dose.

Most people seem to be told 0.01ml of Cat Metacam (0.05mg per ml). So surely 0.03ml of 1.5mg per ml would be way way higher than usual?

I hate fractions - it's doing my head in lol.

So you think 0.03ml of 1.5mg per ml is an ok strength for a hamster? I think he is more like 20g which is average robo size isn't it?
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Old 03-04-2019, 06:58 AM   #28
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Default Re: Baytril by injection?

See, 0.01ml of 0.5mg/ml is also a safe dosage - but it wont be effective for an animal in large amounts of discomfort. As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing to worry about with concentration/dosage you've been given here. From what I can find (http://web.jhu.edu/animalcare/COMPLE...0FORMULARY.pdf) the dosage for hamsters with regards to metacam (being taken orally) is 1-2mg/kg. The conc. you've been given is 1.5mg/kg, so falls within that range. It is high, yes - but it's not unsafe, and given that you've mentioned that he appears to be uncomfortable, the higher concentration is not surprising.

0.03ml is a safe amount of 1.5mg/kg to administrate a robo who weighs 25g-30g (on average). If he weighs less than this, 0.02ml would be the typical dose of 1.5ml/kg for an animal of 20g. If you could weigh him, we will be able to know for sure.

I'm no expert on hamster medication haha, but I fail to see anything wrong with the dosage she's given you and it falls within range of veterinary standard.
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Old 03-04-2019, 08:04 AM   #29
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Default Re: Baytril by injection?

Thank you Emma. My Maths brain definitely needs help ha ha. This is how the second vet I asked worked it out - for a 30g hamster.

"0.5 mg/kg x 0.03 kg of hamster) = 0.015 mg

The dog Metacam comes as both 0.5 mg/mL and 1.5 mg/mL.

When using the 0.5 mg/mL, 0.015 mg/0.5 mg/mL = 0.03 mL daily for your hamster.

When using the 1.5 mg/mL, 0.015 mg/1.5 mg/mL - 0.01 mL daily for your hamster.

Because there's leeway in dosing (greater than or equal to 0.5 mg/kg), increasing the dose if need be is acceptable."

So I had two calculations of 0.01ml but it does sound like increasing it a little bit is ok and I will see how Nugget goes over the next couple of days.

It may be that the original vet allowed for faster metabolism when prescribing 0.03ml - but my confidence in that has been shaken somewhat by the mistake she made when demonstrating the dosage in the syringes.
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Old 03-04-2019, 08:26 AM   #30
EmmaAndChester
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Default Re: Baytril by injection?

Can you clarify where the second vet got this number from? "0.5 mg/kg x 0.03 kg of hamster) = 0.015 mg" - where has 0.5mg/kg came from?

I'm not a vet - I took some clinical classes two years ago, so I'm rusty - so I don't mean to question them. It's just I do not see where and why they're using 0.5mg/kg when the vet has not prescribed you 0.5mg/kg, but instead has prescribed you 1.5mg/kg. She would be right in saying that 0.01ml would be the correct amount if we were talking about a 0.5mg dosage. But we are not, your vet has prescribed you a 1.5mg/kg dosage, in which case, 0.03ml is the right amount.

Because I'm getting;

(1.5mg/kg)(0.03kg) = 0.045mg.
When using the 1.5mg/ml; (0.045mg)/(1.5mg/ml) = 0.03ml.

I totally understand your reluctance to trust the first vet, and believe me I would be the same, but although she made a ridiculously silly and dangerous mistake with the syringe readings, I can't see anything wrong with the prescription she's given you.

eta; I just bolded some important parts ^ just because we're talking about an animal clearly in some level of pain, so while its important that he's not be overdosed, it's also important that his pain is being appropriately managed.

Last edited by EmmaAndChester; 03-04-2019 at 08:34 AM.
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