Clinical studies, scientific reports?

[cypher]

Thanks for that Teddy, very interesting reading.

I wouldn't drop protein levels as early as a year, certainly not before 18 months, I did find the mention of 20 months interesting as it would probably be more like that age that I tend to reduce protein to some extent but I think as they get older there's more to consider than just age, I tend to look at condition, activity levels & general behaviour as much as their actual age when making any changes.

[Teddy001]

Originally Posted by cypher

Thanks for that Teddy, very interesting reading.

I wouldn't drop protein levels as early as a year, certainly not before 18 months, I did find the mention of 20 months interesting as it would probably be more like that age that I tend to reduce protein to some extent but I think as they get older there's more to consider than just age, I tend to look at condition, activity levels & general behaviour as much as their actual age when making any changes.

I do agree.

[Pebbles82]

Yes we are somehow aware that protein levels of 18 to 20% are recommended but not quite sure where from. I know Harry Hamster is supposed to have the right levels, at 18% and no sugars. And assume that level is from some scientific research and it's the one recommended by the National Hamster Council in the Uk.

Also aware that people say too much protein is bad too. But certainly too little can cause all kinds of things.

From your research it sounds like less protein isn't as bad as long as it's above 12%?

That interests me because Rodipet have senior and junior hamster mixes. The Junior mix has higher protein levels but still only 15.1% protein, which people consider a bit low. And yet Rodipet are quite expert in hamster matters. And Germans use that feed. Maybe they supplement as well.

Their Senior mix is from 1 year old and is 14.1% so not much less.

I am now thinking they have it about right. That 15% is enough for a young hamster but an older hamster, although they need less, they still need a good amount and not too much less.

Although generally 18% seems to be the magic number to attain. I can't remember where I read it but I do think that in older hamsters or post 1 year old, too much protein is supposed to cause kidney problems. So your research that mentions enlarged kidneys could be related to that.

But that it is only in older hamsters that too much protein could cause this issue maybe. And that younger hamsters, who need the extra protein, may not have enlarged kidneys.

The other thing I'm wondering too is if it matters what type of protein? Because the vast majority of protein in hamster mixes is soya. Whereas a more balanced protein diet of more natural foods and variety - eg meat, mealworms, nuts etc may not cause this issue.

My gut feeling has always been that relying on one mass produced source of vegetable protein for all protein is not great and not that natural. For example I know fitness types - cyclists, body builders etc eat a lot of extra protein. Tuna fish is one of the high protein foods a cyclist colleague I knew ate every day. But if they ate only large amounts of tuna fish for protein that would surely have an imbalance and knock on effect physiologically somehow. Variety is important. Too much of one thing can't be good.

I think you may find that there isn't enough scientific research and assume you will be able to put forward original ideas and theories to be thought about due to the lack of scientific material, which could be good! Throwing some ideas out there.

I think the 1 year for reducing protein is probably about right - hamsters are middle aged by then, and assume that's why mixes like rodipet are for around that age. Although agree as Cypher says, it may depend on the individual hamster.

I actually do supplement the protein in the Rodipet mix because a lot of the protein (crickets!) doesn't get eaten.

[Drago]

The main issue with diets in Syrians, is simply the lack of research behind it. As has been touched upon in this thread already, 18% is appraised as some “magic number”. However, I don’t like using it as I’ve seen no scientific proof of this. The only proof we’ve found on it would actually point to most adult Syrians needing 15-17%. We’ve also found that fat, isn’t actually as big of an issue as many make it out to be. The studies actually found that as long as fat doesn’t exceed 12% (even up to 20%!) for young Syrians, no issues occurred. Another issue, is that fiber is often ignored. Yet, fiber is one of the most critical nutrients in a hamster’s diet.



I can link some studies that I have reviewed later. It’s fairly sad, how little research has gone into hamster diet (and the diet of all small/exotic pets really). Best of luck on your presentation!

[Teddy001]

Originally Posted by Serendipity7000

Yes we are somehow aware that protein levels of 18 to 20% are recommended but not quite sure where from. I know Harry Hamster is supposed to have the right levels, at 18% and no sugars. And assume that level is from some scientific research and it's the one recommended by the National Hamster Council in the Uk.

Also aware that people say too much protein is bad too. But certainly too little can cause all kinds of things.

From your research it sounds like less protein isn't as bad as long as it's above 12%?

That interests me because Rodipet have senior and junior hamster mixes. The Junior mix has higher protein levels but still only 15.1% protein, which people consider a bit low. And yet Rodipet are quite expert in hamster matters. And Germans use that feed. Maybe they supplement as well.

Their Senior mix is from 1 year old and is 14.1% so not much less.

I am now thinking they have it about right. That 15% is enough for a young hamster but an older hamster, although they need less, they still need a good amount and not too much less.

Although generally 18% seems to be the magic number to attain. I can't remember where I read it but I do think that in older hamsters or post 1 year old, too much protein is supposed to cause kidney problems. So your research that mentions enlarged kidneys could be related to that.

But that it is only in older hamsters that too much protein could cause this issue maybe. And that younger hamsters, who need the extra protein, may not have enlarged kidneys.

The other thing I'm wondering too is if it matters what type of protein? Because the vast majority of protein in hamster mixes is soya. Whereas a more balanced protein diet of more natural foods and variety - eg meat, mealworms, nuts etc may not cause this issue.

My gut feeling has always been that relying on one mass produced source of vegetable protein for all protein is not great and not that natural. For example I know fitness types - cyclists, body builders etc eat a lot of extra protein. Tuna fish is one of the high protein foods a cyclist colleague I knew ate every day. But if they ate only large amounts of tuna fish for protein that would surely have an imbalance and knock on effect physiologically somehow. Variety is important. Too much of one thing can't be good.

I think you may find that there isn't enough scientific research and assume you will be able to put forward original ideas and theories to be thought about due to the lack of scientific material, which could be good! Throwing some ideas out there.

I think the 1 year for reducing protein is probably about right - hamsters are middle aged by then, and assume that's why mixes like rodipet are for around that age. Although agree as Cypher says, it may depend on the individual hamster.

I actually do supplement the protein in the Rodipet mix because a lot of the protein (crickets!) doesn't get eaten.

Good points!
Right, I’ve not found an study that is specifically focused on hamsters & the long term effects of feeding various protein percentages, although I’ve come across a few studies of different proteins, soy verses meat. I’m accumulating a folder of clinical studies, on hamsters since I’ve come across quite a few that are on other topics.
My perception of the protein % in the studies, is more of an range, 12%-20%, highest fed to weaned pups. 18% and above has shown kidney swelling although not life threatening, which I’d like to see more studies done on this subject.

At this point, I’ll use the studies I’ve received and found, to compile what I’ll present to the vets. I do wish there were studies focused on long term effects and age groups of hamsters, (groups large enough) to measure hamster biological effects of protein, fat & fiber percentages.

I also feed my robo Rodipet Jr. and supplement with fresh protein.

[Teddy001]

Originally Posted by Drago

The main issue with diets in Syrians, is simply the lack of research behind it. As has been touched upon in this thread already, 18% is appraised as some “magic number”. However, I don’t like using it as I’ve seen no scientific proof of this. The only proof we’ve found on it would actually point to most adult Syrians needing 15-17%. We’ve also found that fat, isn’t actually as big of an issue as many make it out to be. The studies actually found that as long as fat doesn’t exceed 12% (even up to 20%!) for young Syrians, no issues occurred. Another issue, is that fiber is often ignored. Yet, fiber is one of the most critical nutrients in a hamster’s diet.



I can link some studies that I have reviewed later. It’s fairly sad, how little research has gone into hamster diet (and the diet of all small/exotic pets really). Best of luck on your presentation!

Thank you. I agree, so little studies have been done on hamsters. I do find the cage size studies interesting. It also appears the studies that have been done are old, dated 70’s & 80’s.

[Drago]

Originally Posted by Teddy001

Thank you. I agree, so little studies have been done on hamsters. I do find the cage size studies interesting. It also appears the studies that have been done are old, dated 70’s & 80’s.

Ah yes! I love reading the old cage studies, they’re quite insightful. Another one I found interesting was a study conducted on bedding depth. The study found Syrians to need at least 12 inches! I’ll have to link that one, if you haven’t seen it already

[Teddy001]

Originally Posted by Drago

Ah yes! I love reading the old cage studies, they’re quite insightful. Another one I found interesting was a study conducted on bedding depth. The study found Syrians to need at least 12 inches! I’ll have to link that one, if you haven’t seen it already

Oh, WOW!! No I’ve not come acrossed that one. German cages typically have 2ft of bedding! They must have read the studies. Lol

Thanks so much!!