Syrian Requirements RSPCA

[Hamsterlover91]

I don't agree with having shavings, but I think cage size and wheel size should be enforced more the amount of cages which are to small for these animals yet pet shops still sell them

[RubyDG]

Originally Posted by cypher

You're not alone there Ruby! I'd hate to think how much time I spend trying to figure out potential ham habitats in my head, wandering around the room tape measure in hand lol! I'm having enough trouble trying to figure out if I get the mamble which I'd really like to do where the hell I'm going to put it while I set it up before I start switching cages around!
I do hope you can find a way to make your plan work though, it would make an amazing home for Spike.
Fitch on the floor is an everyday occurrence here, I'm just learning to live with it

As nice as it would be after chatting about it seriously with my husband I've decided that it's just too heavy and too long to fit the space. What we did agree on was that I could look into getting another cage to go on top of the Mamble or even underneath on the stand shelf and then connect them by tubes . Definitely going to try and incorporate a digging area, I just think it's something he's missing at the moment, especially with all I've read about it's importance. Spike's just really active - even with 2hr daily free ranging in the bedroom he's still running around his cage like a maniac the rest of the time. I want to add in a complete top level to the Mamble as well and my husband said he can work out a way to hinge the roof for access. It my not be a beautiful German style cage (which is my dream) but as long as I can give him more space I'll be happy that I'm doing my best by him. Now I'm going to be spending the next few weeks working out how everything is going to fit together and exactly what to buy ! I might even go buy one of those fancy pully outy measuring tapes!

[Thin Lizzy]

Reading this thread had me looking at my living room and wondering if I can make room for another hammie. lol! I have 2 very big sofas and I don't use both. Uh-oh!

[Nibbler]

Brilliant links, thanks Serendipity.

I'm quite shocked to see that the rspca would not necessarily discourage males living together given a big enough cage with places to hide !! I know it's tailored to lab hamsters, but still!

The 2nd link (Hauzenberger, et al journal paper) is brilliant. Best academic paper on hamster welfare that I've read so far. Not a perfect experiment but much better than a lot I've read. (I've got a Master's degree in psychology research methods- I've been trained to critique, so I'd probably be able to find some fault with even the best papers out there)
The results were really interesting. Essentially recommending 40cm worth of substrait for burrowing. That's the compromise for pet owners at least - a compromise between ease of handling and benefit or deeper substrate. The researchers only used a width of 10cm along all sides of the cage for the substrate so they could see all the burrows, so it seems like hamsters don't necessarily need a big box full of substrate, maybe a 'slither' of the cage to see the benefit. Means we as owners can also still see where our little hammies are.
Shame they didn't explicitly use more depths, like 20, 30 and 50cm, see whether it's a gradual trend in reducing bar biting or a sharp decrease. On a side note, I'm Very impressed to see they used a 30cm diameter wheel for each hamster.

Sorry for the rambling. Went into geek/work mode then haha. I'd love to discuss how we as owners can use this information and try to adapt cages/dig boxes.

[Dalis_mum]

I constantly go back and forth about how i feel with regards to animal welfare standards in the RSPCA. Sometimes i think 'brilliant' then i read that they thinks its acceptable to put male day old chicks into macerators alive as a form of euthanasia.

[cypher]

Ruby Spike is one lucky guy! I'm sure you'll work out something really great for him, he has a lovely home already but I know just how you feel always wanting to make things that much better!
Look forward to seeing what you come up with!

Nibbler I know what you mean, the experiments are interesting & useful (if a bit limited) but they don't relate directly to the way most hams are kept, I think we just have to take what we think is useful or helpful & work out what's best for our own hams ourselves.

[Pebbles82]

Thanks for that Nibbler - it helps to have it analysed by someone who knows their stuff on analyses! I agree that there is a big gap between 10cm and 40cm in terms of their tests and it would be interesting to know how good 15cm is because that's about the most depth most cage bases will hold. To have 40cm or more would definitely mean a tank style and then there are compromises with having other things in the cage and needing more height and more levels. I do think the Falco 100 cage is brilliant for that, but I know I would find access difficult in that one. If it had doors on the front of course that could make a big difference, rather than just a door on top (maybe the newer version does - I think someone on here has one). I just don't think I could stretch to £169 for that cage or for the 120cm living world eco habitat which would also be good for deep substrate - and I'm rubbish at diy. Other half is ok at it but doesn't have time - it would never be finished! Charlie has only 'dug' when he needed to. For example when I put the big wooden house in, I set it down in the substrate a bit and put a tunnel over the door to make it dark inside. Because they were set down in the substrate a bit the tunnel height clearly wasn't high enough for Charlie and he dug a kind of channel under it and heaped the excess up inside the house to make a mountain to build his nest on top of. So there is an argument for hamsters adapting to domestication - like if a hide is provided they don't need to tunnel as much and will just tunnel as necessary. But then I think it did say in the report that given the 40cm or more of substrate hamsters did make their own burrows. It didn't say it they had any alternatives provided I think though.

I actually like the idea of one of those big wood ones like the Tectake (the Tectake itself doesn't have good access but their is a similar one with a large opening plexiglass door at the front, lower down) except I'm not keen on them being made of wood and on Amazon it actually says the Tectake is made of Cedar, (a reply by the makers). Some of the similar ones are made of pine. I'd be too worried about splinters. But you could have a big depth of substrate and still lots of room and access - so I guess to get what you want means diy.

I think someone should make a cage like the Alexander with a deeper base - but I guess that is what the Falco 100 is basically. Except it's a tank base with access from the top.

Maybe a 30cm plastic base 120 cm cage with a tall cage top would be good!

[Pebbles82]

Originally Posted by Hamsterlover91

I don't agree with having shavings, but I think cage size and wheel size should be enforced more the amount of cages which are to small for these animals yet pet shops still sell them

I'm starting to feel like that myself, which is why I've switched, reluctantly, as I like my shavings. I started out hearing they were bad bad bad. Then read more that said they were ok if kiln dried which they all are by law in the Uk. But recently read a lot of papers on it and one in particular had run tests (I don't know how accurate or scientific these tests were) that said hamsters on kiln dried shavings still developed the same liver problems that hamsters on non kiln dried shavings did. So maybe it is not the amount of phenols that makes the difference, but just the presence of them. I've decided I want to do better, and there are plenty of other substrates available and a good range of paper based ones. I don't think dust, unless it is excessive, is that much of a problem - it's more the chemicals. Having said that I know that chemicals used in bleaching paper is not good either! Years ago bleached toilet paper was supposed to be a no no. So it would be nice to have more information on the processes used for recycled paper. I still think it is less of a risk than shavings though. Apologies for doing an about turn on this, and it is my personal opinion based on things I've read. We can be influenced either way by things we read, but I just decided (maybe should have done ages ago) that paper is better. And will try and put more sand in too instead of just a small sand bath.

I've just sent off for some Supreme Cosi n dry which looks like shredded paper, natural coloured, says it uses no chemicals in processing and is based from wood mulch like Megazorb and as mentioned above Amazon users say it isn't dusty. It might be affordable for one hamster but I guess could work out expensive for people with more than one hamster. Will still use Fitch though as it's great and Charlie loves it for his nest.

Anyway I'll post on it when it comes! I wasn't impressed with the amount of fine dust that flies out of a Carefresh bag, but it's probably fine really.

The one thing I'm kicking myself about is not buying a 100cm cage to start with! At first I didn't think I could fit an 80cm cage in, but rearranged the whole room, made some extra storage to create some floor space, moved some things to a different room, and ordered the 80cm x 50cm cage which I thought was huge - but actually the cage space I made would have fitted a 100cm cage! And 80cm doesn't seem that huge any more now I've adapted it for a large syrian!

Dali's Mum - I know what you mean about the RSPCA - they are a lot better than they used to be - it's up to individual branches whether they have a 'no kill' policy or not. I think they are good on the welfare of live animals, but not necessarily on what to do with unwanted animals. They should have a no kill policy across the board. I know they got a lot of bad press in the 80s for methods used for killing to save money (electrocution) and I think that caused so much outrage they stopped it. Some of it must come down to money and resources I guess, but they could do better.

[Thin Lizzy]

I agree with you about the RSPCA - that they should have a no kill policy across the board. I was really shocked to read that in the 80's they killed to save money. That saddens me.

[Dalis_mum]

I dont disagree entirely with their no kill policy. There are animals that will be handed in at an age where they would never be rehomed as most people want young healthy animals, not a 10 year old chihuahua with one eye and diabetes. Is it fair that that poor creature spend the last 2 years of its life in a kennel stressed to high heavens and with barely any interaction? What I think needs to be done is strict licensing of ALL pet keeping.

What I do disagree with is the methods of euthanasia used in some of the non-pet animal industry that is proposed as acceptable by what too many people consider (wrongly) the governing body of animal welfare in the UK. The Home office and the house of commons dictate animal welfare in the UK. The RSPCA (alongside other animal charities) simply reiterate various legislation in a handy format of leaflets and pdf for the masses.