Hamster foods are NOT complete

[mouseandstrawberry]

Originally Posted by kyrilliondaemon

But they do have all the necessary or appropriate parts for hamsters to live full and healthy lives... Hamsters are relatively short lived at the best of times but if complete mixes weren't good for them they wouldn't have the lifespans they do.

I've never seen any evidence saying that hamsters do/don't survive longer with meat, egg e.t.c in their diets - and you can't tell me they have cooked egg in the wild anyway.

Pet food companies will indeed make the food with profit in mind but some companies do charge enough for their food that they can afford to put more effort into ingredients than other companies. Plus very few animals in captivity will have anything like their wild diet, as an example, how many cats would be eating lamb in the wild? I also doubt that zoos feeds the lions gazelle e.t.c...

All of my pets have a diet that reflectst that of a their wild relatives.
My dogs for example get fresh meat and no additives or cereals products.

They have all the needed vitamins yes. It would be like feeding a human child junk food, yes they will certainly survive and some would even live to old age.
Is it good for them, no.

Although i won't argue my point. It's up to each owner what they feed. All i can do and any of us is put our opinions across.

[Shannonmcn]

The junk food comparison isnt a good one as "junk food" by definition is rubbishy refined carbs, fats and sugars and NOT nutritionally balanced, like feeding a hamster on honey nut Cheerios.

A nutritionally balanced museli type hamster mix in my mind is more like those restrictive body building diets where you eat oats, chicken breasts, brocolli and milk and only those things plus a handful of vitamin pills because it's easy to consistently control the nutrition with limited food groups. You have all the nutrients you need but you're going to be pretty bored.

[mouseandstrawberry]

Originally Posted by Shannonmcn

The junk food comparison isnt a good one as "junk food" by definition is rubbishy refined carbs, fats and sugars and NOT nutritionally balanced, like feeding a hamster on honey nut Cheerios.

A nutritionally balanced museli type hamster mix in my mind is more like those restrictive body building diets where you eat oats, chicken breasts, brocolli and milk and only those things plus a handful of vitamin pills because it's easy to consistently control the nutrition with limited food groups. You have all the nutrients you need but you're going to be pretty bored.

That's a really good comparison.

[kyrilliondaemon]

Originally Posted by Shannonmcn

A nutritionally balanced museli type hamster mix in my mind is more like those restrictive body building diets where you eat oats, chicken breasts, brocolli and milk and only those things plus a handful of vitamin pills because it's easy to consistently control the nutrition with limited food groups. You have all the nutrients you need but you're going to be pretty bored.

Which is exactly why so many of us feed multiple mixes. It still doesn't change that the commercial mixes generally do contain everything a hamster needs and from that point of view are still complete

And mouseandstrawberry your dogs may get fresh meat and no additives or cereal products but unless you go as far as literally handing your dogs a carcass they're still not likely to be eating quite the same as wild canids do - wild wolves for example have been reported to even eat the stomach content of their kills, I don't think even many who feed their dogs a fresh raw diet go that far. (Anyone who does go that far deserves credit for being that dedicated/bonkers though lol)
Thats also not even starting to look at the fact that each animal has a different nutritional value to some degree. As an example cows and sheep (especially commercially bred ones) are unlikely to have the same nutritional value as each other, let alone the same as a deer or other animal dogs and their ancestors would eat in the wild
It gets even more complicated when you consider that the animals we keep in captivity are not the same as their closest wild relatives, syrian hamsters have been bred for size, health and temprament and who knows what unintentional subtle changes thats made to their inner biology and therefore to the optimum diet for their bodies? Dogs are even further from their wild ancestors when you look at genetics, so again are likely to have different requirements now to those in the wild

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I think its great you put this much thought into your pets diets, I just still fail to see why I'm likely to be wrong for referring to certain hamster mixes as complete
I find it an interesting thing to consider, but personally I would prefer to feed mine carefully chosen commercial mixes than to try and emulate the diet of hamsters in the wild. I do suspect that carefully chosen commercial mixes would work out as healthier given the research thats gone into them and the thorough testing many have had on the hamsters people feed them

[Shannonmcn]

Originally Posted by kyrilliondaemon

Which is exactly why so many of us feed multiple mixes. It still doesn't change that the commercial mixes generally do contain everything a hamster needs and from that point of view are still complete

I wasn't disagreeing with you, I'm more than happy to feed commercial mixes since people who know better than me have done all the hard work on the nutritional balance.

[barley]

Originally Posted by kyrilliondaemon

I don't think even many who feed their dogs a fresh raw diet go that far. (Anyone who does go that far deserves credit for being that dedicated/bonkers though lol)

Proudly bonkers!

I feed my dog a raw diet - ok, not entire carcasses, but raw meat, offal and raw bones with a variety of fresh fruits and vegetables, fish oil, probiotic yoghurt and very occasionally, a small amount of brown rice - as like you say, dogs would eat the stomach contents of their kill which would often contain cereal matter.

Because same as with hamster foods - although dog kibble is complete in that it contains everything a hamster needs, I do not believe that it alone provides a good diet. Although he does get some grain free kibble too, as treats, just like my hams get complete hamster foods in their diets - variety is the spice of life after all!

[HollyHamster]

Originally Posted by mouseandstrawberry

Complete means, 'having all the necessary or appropriate parts'

Which these mixes don't and i don't belive they do survive as long without meat, egg etc in their diet.

It goes for all animals that they should have as close to natural diet as possible for them to have optimum health and longevity.

Lets face it the pet food companies (99% of them) make food to make huge profits. It's not with the pets health in mind.

ALL businesses have the main goal of obtaining the best profits they can, as it's the main idea of having a business: to obtain a profit and make money.

Just an FYI.

[Pebbles82]

I'm with you on this to some degree. Technically they can describe it as a complete food because it contains the basic nutrients required (if they get eaten), but it doesn't mean it is particularly healthy. I'm slightly bonkers in that I give Charlie organic fresh veg every day - just a tiny bit when the hamster mix isn't organic (I wish there was an organic one), but then it means we get to eat organic veg too! The thing I'm not keen on with the mixes is the soya (which is probably GM - it even says it 'might' be GM on the back of Harry Hamster) - this is how they provide the protein instead of meat mouseandstrawberry. I think one of the JR Farm mixes doesn't have Soya but it is a bit low in protein so would need supplementing with meat or mealworms. On the other hand a lot of the meat we eat might not be that great either! And I don't buy organic meat because it is hard to find and very expensive. I'm still looking for something to change Charlie from instead of Harry Hamster - I've been mixing it with a Rodipet mix for junior hamsters for the last few months, but he isn't keen on the Rodipet one and tends to just eat the Harry Hamster - also I don't know if German laws are different, but they don't state all the ingredients so no idea what's in it except it says no artificial colours and additives. It does come with dried grasshoppers in for protein but he doesn't seem interested in them lol!

Manufacturers are providing a basic service at a cost that gives them a profit - but it really is the basics and a bit of a clinical decision - that mixes provide the basic nutrients, not that healthy but they'll survive their expected lifespan. In the wild they could well get malnutrition on occasion so I'm not sure a wild diet is best either, but the nutrients they need could be 'healthier' in the hamster mixes. I'm planning on changing from Harry Hamster gradually and supplementing, if I can find one Charlie will eat. (Yet to try the JR Farm one - there are two - one I didn't like as it was too bitty - that the was the Jr Farm Adult Hamster -- the other one is the one without soya listed - JR Farm Hamster feast).

JR Farm Hamster Feast. Free P&P on orders £29+ at zooplus!

It does come with animal protein and lists, chicken, shrimps, beef and fish, but don't know how healthy the 'animal protein' is - could be just fat!

I started a similar thread a while ago and I believe the outcome was that because Hamsters need high protein they need to add soya to give enough protein but I'm still anti GM Soya! Like most things you probably can't get it perfect, but I might mix this with Harry Hamster, add mealworms and see how it goes.

[Cujo]

I keep hearing about dog biscuts, does anyone think its okay to feed Milkbone Minis Flavor snacks, like one a week as a treat? The box has just 3 flavors in it, chicken, beef, and bacon. They are super super tiny. They are hard, so I think it should be fine for him to gnaw on for his teeth, im just worried, I don't want to give him something that would make him sick or have something toxic to hamsters in it.

[Cricetinae]

This is an interesting topic! Though I feel there is significant misunderstandings here and an awful lot of cynicism towards manufacturers, with an excessive bias toward 'better nutrition' from fresh fruit and animal protein/fats without explicit rationale.

There are statements that suggest the mixes are lacking in something, yet nobody is stating what is absent. On a molecular level, does the protein not have the essential amino acids, are there essential micronutrients missing, are the macronutrient ratios incorrect? Or is this notion simply a fallacy.

I do provide additional foods to my hamsters on occasion, but moreso as a more palatable treat not because I feel I'm filling a great void left by a good hamster mix.