Register FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Navigation
Front Page
Forum
Gallery
Wiki

Ads by Google


Go Back   Hamster Central > >

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-14-2019, 10:00 PM   #1
muddlecuffins
Newborn Pup
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 6
Default Genetics Query - Yellow & Cream

Hi, first and foremost Id like to explain that there is no pedigree in my country and cream is heavily embedded in all lines. Due to poor health, temperament and type present, it is my goal to breed healthy and good temperament along with a good type than colours. Although it is one of my less prioritized goal to breed out the cream in the next years. Hence, the below mating.

Sire: Yellow Black
Ancestry: Mainly Yellow, Black, Cinnamon, Cream
Dam: Sable DS
Ancestry:
Her Sire - Sable (Grandparents: Sable x BEC)
Her Dam - Cream* DS Ba (Grandparents: Black DS x Dove Ba Tort Satin)
Her Siblings - All Sable w/wo DS Ba

Pups yield from this litter:
Sable (M)
Yellow* (F)
Yellow* DS (F)
Doves (Culled by mom hence unsure of genders)

This is where it gets confusing as with a Yellow male and non-Yellow female, it should have yield non-yellow males and tortoiseshell females. But neither females have patches. However would it be that the dam of this litter, my supposed Sable DS to be a tort, it would make better sense having yellow females. Then again, there was no tort patch to begin with nor am I able to find anything on sable getting a chance of being tort due to masking from cream but if it is possible, please let me know!

I understand this is why it is not encouraged to throw cream and umbrous into yellow, but colour is not my priority for this litter. Another possibility is that the yellows are actually cream, but their coloring look more like yellow (carrying cream) as opposed to being cream alone. If they are yellow, the theory of yellow males yielding tortoiseshell females would be false too?

Thanks for reading, I own the dam of the litter - sable ds perhaps I could upload some pics once I figured out how and the other genetic history are gathered from previous breeders where no proper records were kept. Shows how important record keeping is lol! Xx
muddlecuffins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2019, 12:10 AM   #2
souffle
Moderator
 
souffle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Yorkshire, UK but my heart lies in Scotland!
Posts: 26,669
Default Re: Genetics Query - Yellow & Cream

The sable female has to be a tort or else you could not have got Yellow females in the litter. The cream is epistatic so would mask any tort patches on the female and that applies to sable as well which is just Umbrous cream so she is hiding the yellow gene.
With the father being a Yellow black that sable male will also be hiding Yellow. He will also be genetically carrying yellow (only needs one to be yellow as he is male) and black (recessive) hidden by the sable.
Each of the pups in the litter has an equal chance of getting a gene so it really is the luck of the draw what you get in the pups in the litter and often you don't get all the expected combinations.
I'd like to see pics. A Dominant spot Sable is very very rare. There is something about domi spot and sable that do not mix. Sable banded is common and easy to produce. I have never seen a domi spot sable in years of judging and breeding and neither have any of my friends with large hamsteries bar one in Finland years ago.
If your male is yellow black you can be assured that this whole litter has at least one yellow gene each whether it is showing or not!
souffle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2019, 04:45 AM   #3
muddlecuffins
Newborn Pup
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 6
Default Re: Genetics Query - Yellow & Cream

Hi Souffle, thanks for your reply.
The sable male offspring does not look like a yellow/yellow black umbrous to me with its lighter eye rings but then again, might be due to the cream like you mentioned.

I'm having trouble posting pictures or links, if you don't mind to go to - muddlecuffins . tumblr . com.
I've just posted some pics of the sable ds dam from she was a wee pup and her litter as well. There was about 8 sable* pups in the litter she came from, with bandeds and then 3 ds pups as her mother is a Ba DS. You actually just reminded me that I haven't actually seen sable ds, too, she is the first. What is with sable and ds that is not possible? x
muddlecuffins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2019, 12:38 PM   #4
souffle
Moderator
 
souffle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Yorkshire, UK but my heart lies in Scotland!
Posts: 26,669
Default Re: Genetics Query - Yellow & Cream

Is it the hamster names Rae? She doesn't look like a sable to me. It's had to tell from those pics though. Has that pup you say is sable got a cream undercoat? It looks like a black to me. If the female is carrying black it could be a black. Also she would have to be to get the doves you said she culled as Dove is cinnamon and black and they need one of each those two genes from each parent as they are both recessive.
souffle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2019, 10:46 PM   #5
Nancy's Hamsters
ST's Hamstery
 
Nancy's Hamsters's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Mid Ohio USA
Posts: 2,550
Default Re: Genetics Query - Yellow & Cream

Your sable Male is an Umbrous YB carrying Cream like this male pup whose Sire was Umbrous YB and Dam was a Honey Black
Julinans-4 weeks old-i.JPG
Your Female you see as Sable Ds looks like a Twin to my Elina May she RIP
Elina pre-litter-e.JPG

Elina proved to be a Black Tort masked by Cream Having the Poly White gene as none of her pups ended up Dominant Spot nor did any have the roan gene.

The sire of her litter was a Satin Honey Black Carrying Cream as he was the only satin male she was in with at the pet store.

One of her 13 pups was an Umbrous Yellow male which verified that Elina had to be a yellow something even though she looked Sable roan.
__________________
Nancy,and The ST's Hamsters
Nancy's Hamsters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2019, 02:16 AM   #6
muddlecuffins
Newborn Pup
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 6
Default Re: Genetics Query - Yellow & Cream

@ Souffle, no, my dam’s name is Tteok. She does carry black like you mentioned hence the doves but the male has eye rings and cream undercoat. . I have just updated the blog with today’s picture. It’s hard to get clear pic of his eye rings, it’s not as thick as the usual sable I’ve seen. Let me know what do you think x

@ Nancy, I’d agree with the umbrous yellow black carrying cream but the eyerings for my male is much lighter with a cream undercoat. I could test breed him to my other available female whom is a sg tort, but I don’t exactly fancy throwing more cream in the mix. And your Elina does look like my Tteok! Neither a roan nor polywhite as she produced a yellow* ds, suppose my Tteok is actually a Black tort DS masked by cream then? It would also make sense for her to get a non-yellow like the sable male pup since the probability is quite even between yellow male, non yellow male, tort and yellow females.
muddlecuffins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2019, 12:36 AM   #7
muddlecuffins
Newborn Pup
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 6
Default Re: Genetics Query - Yellow & Cream

Quote:
Originally Posted by souffle View Post
Is it the hamster names Rae? She doesn't look like a sable to me. It's had to tell from those pics though. Has that pup you say is sable got a cream undercoat? It looks like a black to me. If the female is carrying black it could be a black. Also she would have to be to get the doves you said she culled as Dove is cinnamon and black and they need one of each those two genes from each parent as they are both recessive.
@ Souffle & Nancy, researched more on yb umbrous pups and agree with you guys that the sable male should be a yb umbrous as he does not have thick eyerings. Can I just check with you guys on the undercoat color difference for sable and yellow black umbrous? Thanks x
muddlecuffins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2019, 01:50 AM   #8
souffle
Moderator
 
souffle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Yorkshire, UK but my heart lies in Scotland!
Posts: 26,669
Default Re: Genetics Query - Yellow & Cream

The base colour on a sable is Ivory cream where as on a yellow it is Ivory yellow. These can look very close. Even in an Umbrous yellow black I'd expect to see evidence of it being a yellow black though as these are quite distictive. They tend to have a heart shaped yellowish nose where the fur is shortest.
souffle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2019, 06:14 AM   #9
muddlecuffins
Newborn Pup
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 6
Default Re: Genetics Query - Yellow & Cream

Quote:
Originally Posted by souffle View Post
The base colour on a sable is Ivory cream where as on a yellow it is Ivory yellow. These can look very close. Even in an Umbrous yellow black I'd expect to see evidence of it being a yellow black though as these are quite distictive. They tend to have a heart shaped yellowish nose where the fur is shortest.
Thanks, Souffle! Another question though, how does the dam - black umbrous tort masking cream ds look grey in naked eyes? I would have expected cream to have masked black instead.
muddlecuffins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2019, 10:35 AM   #10
souffle
Moderator
 
souffle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Yorkshire, UK but my heart lies in Scotland!
Posts: 26,669
Default Re: Genetics Query - Yellow & Cream

She must only have one cream gene so carrying cream maybe? I don't really know but maybe you are just assuming her genetic makeup from the way she looks? She has too many genes to get good versions of any of them in the phenotype as they are all influencing each other so you won't see a true version of anything. I'd try and separate them out by progressively breeding them to pure animals.
souffle is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cream, yellow, sable, females, litter, tort, dam, black, grandparents, due, sire, tortoiseshell, non-yellow, yield, males, ancestry, good, breed, goal, temperament, type, priority, yellows, possibility, chance

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Parts of this site powered by vBulletin Mods & Addons from DragonByte Technologies Ltd. (Details)
Copyright 2003-17, Hobby Solutions Inc.
All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:49 AM.