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06-16-2017, 09:31 AM
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#11
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Southampton, UK
Posts: 4,577
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Re: Chinesey Pupdate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamsterita
You said that "as I understood BEWs couldn't produce pups together". why is that and how did they do it then?
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I've had lots of conversations with the breeder who first found this variation of BEW Chinese that can reliably produce white pups. He informed me that pairing two BEWs resulted in a litter that was resorbed at 14 days gestation (Chinese hamsters have a 21 day gestation). He had had no harm come to the mums through this but no successful litters.
BEW Chinese had occurred sporadically for decades but they were either infertile or their offspring never produced all white pups. Interestingly the first dom spot Chinese came from a BEW in the 1980s but subsequent BEWs from any dom spots were few and far between. Around 2006 a line of Chinese hamsters was discovered to regularly produce whites and it is from this line that the BEWs in the UK have come.
The 'UK dom spots' when mated together would produce smaller litters with 2/3 dom spot and 1/3 normal, and no white. The 'double dom spots' seemed to be resorbed in utero. The 'Dutch dom spots' when mated together, however, produced 50% dom spot, 25% normal and 25% BEW. It seemed that there was something different that allowed the 'double dom spots' to survive - perhaps a gene modifier, perhaps a different dom spot gene.
I tried mating the 'Dutch dom spots' (those from this BEW-producing line) to the 'UK dom spots', and got the 2/3 dom spot and 1/3 normal ratios - no whites. It appeared that two copies of the 'Dutch dom spot' were needed.
The information about the offspring ratios of the Dutch dom spots and BEWs was as I had been informed by the breeder who discovered them so I didn't try pairing two BEWs. I had hoped to for a second litter of a BEW girl (I like to see for myself what I'm told as long as it doesn't harm the hamsters) but had never yet managed to have enough BEWs, the right sexes of BEWs or girls who felt like having pups to do so. I planned it for a 2nd litter as I'd know she was capable of having pups successfully (so it wasn't just a problem for her as an individual hamster to carry pups) and in case something did go wrong with the resorption as I wouldn't want to breed her again after that.
Another UK breeder at the end of last year had a pair of whites who had pups together which was amazingly surprising to us all. All their offspring were white. I bought Adgestone and Merstone as a pair in Houten so thought I'd leave them together as they settled in to see if they managed to have pups, and split them if needed. Adgestone has a single spot on one ear, as does the mum of the other breeder's litter (I know because I bred her!) I'm not sure if this has an impact on their ability to produce a successful litter with another white. Some people query whether the spot means they're genetically a dom spot not a BEW (like normal Chinese with a single white spot on the cheek are thought to potentially be a very poorly marked dom spot), but if they were I'd have expected some dom spots in the BEW to BEW/?DS litters - especially since my BEW to DS litters are usually all dom spots!
Sorry for the long rambling reply. I hope some of it makes sense! In other words, previously two BEWs haven't been able to carry a litter to term. At the moment there are a couple of pairs who have been able to. It's not clear why but it's going to be interesting to find out! And I have a plan for seeing if the single-spot-on-a-normal's-cheek means they're genetically normal or dom spot which is exciting. Well, exciting for me. I'm a Chinese hamster geek and get really excited by this sort of stuff!
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06-16-2017, 10:00 AM
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#12
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Strong Brew Hamstery
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,282
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Re: Chinesey Pupdate
Vectis, that is so fascinating. I wonder what it is about the Dutch lines that allow for this? Polygenes? Could it be two entirely different genes?
I would love a BEW Chinesey at some point. Maybe one day.
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06-20-2017, 02:16 AM
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#13
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Southampton, UK
Posts: 4,577
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Re: Chinesey Pupdate
Adgemers
The little white boys are growing well and so sweet. One of the lads has the spot on the ear I mentioned above and one doesn't. Typically, the one with the spot has the better type! Still there's plenty of time for me to decide who to keep.
White Ear by Vectis Hamstery, on Flickr
Spotty Ear by Vectis Hamstery, on Flickr
White Ear by Vectis Hamstery, on Flickr
Spotty Ear by Vectis Hamstery, on Flickr
Norsands
Mamma Sandy has opened the nest to the bottom of the bin cage so I got a sneaky peek at the litter while I was lifting the cage on/off the shelf for feeding today. There look to be three pups - 2 normals and a dom spot. They look a lot more developed than I expected if they were born on 12th so I suspect she had them earlier but kept them well hidden and well looked after so they didn't eep.
Scullys
I've moved Scrappy and Ridcully into a bin cage from their gradually increasing tanks. Not a squeak from them! Fingers crossed all remains well with them.
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06-20-2017, 04:51 AM
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#14
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Dwarf whisperer
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Wales UK
Posts: 24,789
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Re: Chinesey Pupdate
It may not be the perfect BEW but I do love the little ear spot
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Slave to Zak.
Always loved, never forgotten, forever in my heart
T'ycor, Ziggy, Zephyr, Flynt, Mickle, Little Whisp, Zen, Zeki, Tinwë, Zylvan, Míriel, Calyanwë, Gusto & Meri ❤️
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06-20-2017, 06:04 AM
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#15
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PM Fluffy for custom title
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Scotland
Posts: 3,467
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Re: Chinesey Pupdate
I agree with Cypher I love that little ear spot too
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06-20-2017, 07:47 AM
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#16
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PM Fluffy for custom title
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 3,190
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Re: Chinesey Pupdate
Just been catching up with this thread. Congratulations on you new Chinese pups.
The little white babies are so adorable - I too love that little ear spot!
Sounds like Sandy is being a wonderful mum to her pups!
Hope everything remains well with Scrappy and Ridcully too
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Popcorn Syrian
Owning Hamsters since Nov 2007
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06-20-2017, 08:11 AM
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#17
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Banned
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 4,407
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Re: Chinesey Pupdate
I like the last picture. If it were me I'd get the pure white one, without the ear spot. But the ear spot is cute, adds character but being a perfectionist again, I'd go with the all white one but personality has to come into play as well I'm sure
Edit: I just saw how the last pic was the one with the spotty ear. I would have a soft spot for her most
Last edited by Cinnamon Bear; 06-20-2017 at 08:46 AM.
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06-20-2017, 09:07 AM
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#18
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Bath, UK
Posts: 3,640
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Re: Chinesey Pupdate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vectis Hamstery
Some people query whether the spot means they're genetically a dom spot not a BEW (like normal Chinese with a single white spot on the cheek are thought to potentially be a very poorly marked dom spot), but if they were I'd have expected some dom spots in the BEW to BEW/?DS litters - especially since my BEW to DS litters are usually all dom spots!
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I was curious when I paired Nobby and Victoria as to what I'd get from them as I remember vaguely that he had the cheek spot and a white patch on his belly. Victoria has a very small white spot on her cheek and a white patch on her chest. All six pups ended up being Normals and to my knowledge none have a white cheek patch however there was a degree of white patching on the bellies of all six.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vectis Hamstery
I have a plan for seeing if the single-spot-on-a-normal's-cheek means they're genetically normal or dom spot which is exciting. Well, exciting for me. I'm a Chinese hamster geek and get really excited by this sort of stuff!
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Me too!
You'll have to let me know what is the result of your planned pairings - I'd love to know how things turn out.
(Those little white pups are simply gorgeous BTW)
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06-20-2017, 11:10 AM
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#19
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Strong Brew Hamstery
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,282
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Re: Chinesey Pupdate
They are just precious.
I'm excited to see the results of your findings.
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06-23-2017, 11:02 AM
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#20
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La loca de los hamsters
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: A Coruña, Spain
Posts: 1,693
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Re: Chinesey Pupdate
Wow vectis, than you very much for the explanation! It was a little bit hard to follow for me as I didn't understood some technical things (I get lost whit the capital letters lol, I don't really know what they mean most of the times) but it was very interesting to read.
And I think that it could be a good contribution to science if you finally figure out how they could breed and why.
It's amazing that good breeders like you probably know more about hams that most vets and proffessionals
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Tags
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june, pups, pair, due, normals, born, term, long, wait, living, 3rd, liort, chinesey, paired, mer, girls, moment, 25%, litter, 24th, nest, dom, spots, bews, 6th |
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