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Old 04-24-2016, 06:49 AM   #1
Nancy's Hamsters
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Default Genetics questions, The Why do they, or what ifs of Coat colors

After reading all these what will I get if threads I decided this Thread may be a interesting, Fun and educational thread. If the Mods feel it would work better in a different sub forum feel free to move it where it may get the most activity of participation.

I'll start with a puzzling to me question which I would LOVE to find good answers to.

OK 1st Question:
Why is it that we see color genes like Extreme Dilute, and the Dilute gene which creates a Blue hamster as Color modifiers EX: Extreme Dilute Black, Extreme Dilute Golden, Blue Mink, Blue Sable Roan etc, BUT we see Umbrous as a color, BUT only on Cream based hamsters?
Is not Sable/Mink actually Umbrous Cream? We don't give any other Umbrous color a new name EX: Umbrous Golden, Umbrous Black etc.

Shouldn't Umbrous actually be a color modifier and not as is seen all over the world in Cream based only as an actual color?
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Old 04-24-2016, 09:27 AM   #2
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Default Re: Genetics questions, The Why do they, or what ifs of Coat colors

I think it's because Mink and Sable are recognised by the NHC and have their own standards.

Here are the standardised colours - https://hamsters-uk.org/content/view/78/63/

I was thinking of making a thread explaining all I know about genetics, so that people could look on there instead of asking ''what will I get'' ''what colour is this'' sort of questions all the time.
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Old 04-24-2016, 01:53 PM   #3
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Default Re: Genetics questions, The Why do they, or what ifs of Coat colors

LOL alike minds tend to think alike

However the NHC is not the only hamster association that does the Sable and Mink thing with Umbrous, and to gain Umbrous on any other color doesn't require the parents to be cream related LOL If it did wouldn't the Umbrous gene be more proper being called Sable Golden or Mink Cinnamon? fun question huh? Also if NHC accepts Sable and Mink(which are actually BEC and REC plus the Umbrous gene why do they Not accept Umbrous gene on any other color? It's just so puzzling to me that NHC approves Umbrous only on Cream based hamsters.
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Old 04-24-2016, 02:04 PM   #4
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Default Re: Genetics questions, The Why do they, or what ifs of Coat colors

I have heard that there is a general dislike for umbrous non-cream colours in the NHC... I'm not sure if this is correct but I think it could be to do with how it makes most colours just look a bit sooty, or a bit off.. so I guess it's harder to judge. Only really in cream colours does it make an entirely different colour, different enough to require another standard?

I think the naming of sable comes from mouse colouring... And also I guess an umbrous golden should just be an umbrous as that's the only displayed gene?

Last edited by jemmalg; 04-24-2016 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 04-24-2016, 02:21 PM   #5
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Default Re: Genetics questions, The Why do they, or what ifs of Coat colors

The standards committee tend to take into account what other fancies (e.g. mice, rabbit etc) use for a similar colour if possible which may be where sable came from.

Umbrous is a recognised mutation so it is acceptable to show any umbrous colour which is also recognised e.g. umbrous golden - they are shown in nonstandard class if they don't have a standard. So they are 'approved'. An umbrous blue, however, would not be acceptable to show as blue isn't a recognised mutation, not because of the umbrous. Copper has a specific standard as do mink and sable. It takes a member to write the standard, present it to the committee and it be approved. If no-one does it then it won't have a standard!

Having a standard doesn't necessarily mean a colour has its own class at a show. The standards are set by the NHC; the classes are decided on by the clubs. If umbrous golden, for example, were to get a standard it could perhaps go into the AOC classes. Cream has its own classes as there are a lot of cream hamsters! It gets unwieldy to have classes of 20 or 30+ hamsters not to mention being a challenge for the concentration of the judge (I had 24 sapphire winter whites to judge at my first judging!)
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Old 04-24-2016, 02:29 PM   #6
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Default Re: Genetics questions, The Why do they, or what ifs of Coat colors

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Originally Posted by Vectis Hamstery View Post
The standards committee tend to take into account what other fancies (e.g. mice, rabbit etc) use for a similar colour if possible which may be where sable came from.

Umbrous is a recognised mutation so it is acceptable to show any umbrous colour which is also recognised e.g. umbrous golden - they are shown in nonstandard class if they don't have a standard. So they are 'approved'. An umbrous blue, however, would not be acceptable to show as blue isn't a recognised mutation, not because of the umbrous. Copper has a specific standard as do mink and sable. It takes a member to write the standard, present it to the committee and it be approved. If no-one does it then it won't have a standard!

Having a standard doesn't necessarily mean a colour has its own class at a show. The standards are set by the NHC; the classes are decided on by the clubs. If umbrous golden, for example, were to get a standard it could perhaps go into the AOC classes. Cream has its own classes as there are a lot of cream hamsters! It gets unwieldy to have classes of 20 or 30+ hamsters not to mention being a challenge for the concentration of the judge (I had 24 sapphire winter whites to judge at my first judging!)
While part of me smiles to think of all those W.W. the other half of me is boggled at how you even begin to judge all in a same color.

So it sounds like Judging standards aren't entirely linked with genetics. Which is an interesting thought on its own. But if a member has to write a standard for a new mutation, wouldn't that require a number of hobbyists with the gene to prove it's reproducible? Kind of the way you have to write out experiment procedures and then give to other scientists so they can either reproduce the results, or invalidate them?
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Old 04-24-2016, 02:48 PM   #7
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Default Re: Genetics questions, The Why do they, or what ifs of Coat colors

I wrote the information for the standards committee for the Black-Eyed White Chinese hamster - what is required is set out in the NHC Handbook. It includes things like the origin of the mutation/colour, how it is inherited and what the ideal should look like. I included family tree diagrams of different actual matings and the outcomes, which involved pairings done by me and others. Although hamster shows are a 'competition' the Fancy as a whole is there to work together towards the improvement of the hamster species. If there's a new mutation it needs more than one person to work on it to get it distributed and established. I felt really uneasy when I had the only few BEW Chinese in the Fancy in my hamstery. What if an infectious disease took hold or some other disaster like afire or predator in the hamster room? I spread them and carriers to others as soon as possible! BEW Chinese were shown in the early to mid 2000s but with only a few exhibitors and died out. We reimported them and had several people working with them which is how they are now better established. They still need work, but I think they're in a safer position.

Initially if approved it becomes a provisional standard. Within a certain time frame then three generations of the colour/pattern have to be physically shown to members of the standards committee (not just photos but hands-on hamsters for examination - there's nowhere to hide!)

You have to bear in mind that judges see just the phenotype not the genotype of each hamster as show hamsters are presented anonymously. The standards committee are all qualified judges and also have to think "if one of these hamsters was on the show bench, could it be differentiated from other standard colours? Is it different enough?". Recessive dappled, for example, was not felt to be sufficiently reliably distinguishable from a dom spot banded to have its own standard so the RD genotype was added to the dom spot banded genotype in the standard. These decisions aren't reached lightly - my understanding is that the standards committee meeting is very long and thorough!
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Old 04-24-2016, 03:04 PM   #8
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Default Re: Genetics questions, The Why do they, or what ifs of Coat colors

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Originally Posted by Vectis Hamstery View Post
I wrote the information for the standards committee for the Black-Eyed White Chinese hamster - what is required is set out in the NHC Handbook. It includes things like the origin of the mutation/colour, how it is inherited and what the ideal should look like. I included family tree diagrams of different actual matings and the outcomes, which involved pairings done by me and others. Although hamster shows are a 'competition' the Fancy as a whole is there to work together towards the improvement of the hamster species. If there's a new mutation it needs more than one person to work on it to get it distributed and established. I felt really uneasy when I had the only few BEW Chinese in the Fancy in my hamstery. What if an infectious disease took hold or some other disaster like afire or predator in the hamster room? I spread them and carriers to others as soon as possible! BEW Chinese were shown in the early to mid 2000s but with only a few exhibitors and died out. We reimported them and had several people working with them which is how they are now better established. They still need work, but I think they're in a safer position.

Initially if approved it becomes a provisional standard. Within a certain time frame then three generations of the colour/pattern have to be physically shown to members of the standards committee (not just photos but hands-on hamsters for examination - there's nowhere to hide!)

You have to bear in mind that judges see just the phenotype not the genotype of each hamster as show hamsters are presented anonymously. The standards committee are all qualified judges and also have to think "if one of these hamsters was on the show bench, could it be differentiated from other standard colours? Is it different enough?". Recessive dappled, for example, was not felt to be sufficiently reliably distinguishable from a dom spot banded to have its own standard so the RD genotype was added to the dom spot banded genotype in the standard. These decisions aren't reached lightly - my understanding is that the standards committee meeting is very long and thorough!
That sounds both exciting and harrowing in the same token. Your BEW Chinesey's are so lovely! Thank you very much for the insight Vectis! I wish we had more in the way of clubs and associations in the states, but here it seems to be either reptiles cats or dogs.
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Old 04-24-2016, 07:33 PM   #9
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Default Re: Genetics questions, The Why do they, or what ifs of Coat colors

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Originally Posted by oddlyoblivious View Post
That sounds both exciting and harrowing in the same token. Your BEW Chinesey's are so lovely! Thank you very much for the insight Vectis! I wish we had more in the way of clubs and associations in the states, but here it seems to be either reptiles cats or dogs.
There isn't much focus on hamster breeding in general in the US.I think part of the blame falls on the whole "adopt don't shop" and breeders generally seeming to get shunned in the US,which is just a horrible thing to happen.It's sad though that people wouldn't take more initiative and make it a serious thing,but when everyone is focused on the high-profit animals such as cats,dogs,and reptiles nobody seems to care about small animals.Even then a lot of the problem is that breeders get shunned because organizations like PETA and the ASPCA present the bad scenarios as the entire reality.
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Old 04-24-2016, 11:13 PM   #10
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Default Re: Genetics questions, The Why do they, or what ifs of Coat colors

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There isn't much focus on hamster breeding in general in the US.I think part of the blame falls on the whole "adopt don't shop" and breeders generally seeming to get shunned in the US,which is just a horrible thing to happen.It's sad though that people wouldn't take more initiative and make it a serious thing,but when everyone is focused on the high-profit animals such as cats,dogs,and reptiles nobody seems to care about small animals.Even then a lot of the problem is that breeders get shunned because organizations like PETA and the ASPCA present the bad scenarios as the entire reality.
PETA and the ASPCA typically go after the groups which breed indiscriminately for profit. Not to say that I always agree or disagree, but I'm not sure you could blame the lack of interest on these groups.

I think the expense of doing the hobby ''right'' probably plays a larger factor, paired with time.

Even groups like the 4-h clubs overlook Hamsters in favor of Rabbits.

I'm sure Vectis could probably chime in about the overhead aspects of a breeders association, and all the work that goes into the planing and hosting of those kinds of events.
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