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Old 07-07-2012, 11:56 PM   #1
Pearl Hamletry
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Question Inbreeding Coefficiant

Hello Breeders -

I was wondering what percentage the inbreeding coefficiant most of you line breeders go by? I have not yet dabbled into inbreeding yet and wanted to do a consenscous.

I know a very reputable breeder that swears by linebreeding cousins and other second grade relatives in order to condense desirable genes. Obviously you wouldn't condense undesirable genes and not enough outcrossing could cause problems, but I would like to know more about what ethics other expierenced line breeders go by.
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Old 07-08-2012, 12:47 AM   #2
Ren
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Default Re: Inbreeding Coefficiant

"In 1930, Israel Aharoni, a zoologist and professor at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, captured a mother hamster and her litter of pups in Aleppo, Syria. The hamsters were bred in Jerusalem as laboratory animals. Some escaped from the cage through a hole in the floor, and most of the wild golden hamsters in Israel today are believed to be descended from this litter.[4]

Descendants of the captive hamsters were shipped to Britain in 1931, where they came under the care of the Wellcome Bureau of Scientific Research. They bred well and two more pairs were given to the Zoological Society of London in 1932. The descendants of these were passed on to private breeders in 1937. A separate stock of hamsters was exported from Syria to the USA in 1971, but it appears that none of today's North American pets are descended from these (at least in the female line), because recent mitochondrial DNA studies have established that all domestic golden hamsters are descended from one female – probably the one captured in 1930 in Syria.[4]"

Golden hamster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Interesting, huh? I think it takes some time (a few generations) for there to be negative effects with inbreeding in rodents. I think it's best to avoid it. Breeding together distant relatives isn't so much of a problem in my opinion, so long as the breeder is careful and aware of the positive and negative genes the hamster has. I think it's very bad when it's parent to child, sibling to sibling, grandparent to grandchild-- when it's close. And it shouldn't be done often.
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Old 07-08-2012, 02:40 AM   #3
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Default Re: Inbreeding Coefficiant

That sounds like some sort of Hamster Eve :3

I can imagine there sometimes being a lot of inbreeding in the wild cos they have no one to tell them NO!
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Old 07-08-2012, 03:05 AM   #4
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Default Re: Inbreeding Coefficiant

One of my hamsters has the same great grandparent on both sides of her blood line (Dianna with hagrid grand champion) but thats the closest I have seen, she has no physical signs of inbreeding as its a good few generations between.

I know sometimes, in really controlled cases, the most experienced breeders will inbreed.
The recessive dappled, theres about 3-4 in this country, I know one of the breeders who has them, and I would have 100% trust in her, if she did inbreed them, it would be controlled and safe.
other then preserving a rare or dying colour, I dont think there is any reason to inbreed myself.
as Sandti said, in the wild they dont know one hamster from another, mice do, they learn their siblings sound when in the nest, and wont mate (so I have heard!) but nothing stops hamsters, I guess mum hammy will chase them all quite far when its separation age, to make sure they dont come back and mate to her.
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Old 07-08-2012, 05:20 AM   #5
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Default Re: Inbreeding Coefficiant

I would minimize inbreeding as much as possible, it is not the physical signs of inbreeding that is the problem, but rather the accumulation of deleterious alleles/mutations etc.
For example - the royal family often married cousins, and as a result the disease haemophilia is present in the royal family.
inbreeding is also well known to decrease the fitness (health) of a population.
Through inbreeding, you run the risk of deleterious traits, and having to 'cull' those individuals that then present these traits.
Personally I think breeding cousins is too high an inbreeding coefficient, but then it also depends on if there is any previous inbreeding with the cousins.

Although I'm not a breeder of hammys, I've had to research this a lot for my degree. Maybe experienced breeders would argue that inbreeding in small amounts is acceptable but I do not think that it is worth the risk of genetic and physical problems for a 'desirable' trait. And forgive me if I start a debate, but don't the majority of breeders breed for the health and quality of a hamster? to me the breeding for a desirable trait goes against this.
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Old 07-08-2012, 02:21 PM   #6
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Default Re: Inbreeding Coefficiant

The problem with inbreeding is that the first generation may be completely normal, but as you gradually decrease the offsprings' gene pool, all the recessive traits will come out which may or may not be desirable. Inbreeding emphasises good qualities just as well as bad qualities.

It may not be possible to achieve certain colours and coat types without a considerable amount of inbreeding [see mice for example]. The worst risk categories are parent to pup and sybling to sybling matings. If you continually breed parents to their pups, the second generation may end up with a lot of genetic defects. However, this isn't necessarily bad, because you now know what to expect, but it means you can't inbreed these animals without further risks. The only positive you get out of it is that you uncover all the 'hidden' genetic faults that otherwise would skip generations and would only pop up later on in the line. But by now you might have hamsters that were born without eyes, may be deaf, may develop cancerous tumors early in their lives, etc. What will you do with them? You can't rehome them...you either keep them or have them PTS. Close inbreeding makes for genetically predictable animals but at a cost. Are new colour mutations worth it? Certainly not, if you ask me.

It is a lot safer to inbreed far relatives like cousins and second cousins. Basically the further the generations are apart, the safer it is. It is definitely more difficult to produce the animals you want without heavy inbreeding, but it's not impossible.

Animals rarely inbreed in the wild, that's what all the aggression comes down to, i.e. how mother hamster will chase her pups from her, once they are old enough to live on their own. All young animals are encouraged to 'flee the nest' otherwise the parents or group members may even turn against them.
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Old 07-08-2012, 11:47 PM   #7
Pearl Hamletry
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Default Re: Inbreeding Coefficiant

Well first I would like to say that this thread was targeted at breeders that line breed and after some of these responses I can see why none of them responded. I would like to say that it is not my intention to have those that are for inbreeding to shoot down those that are not or vise versa. We all have different morals, beliefs and ethics that we go by and just because someone else has differences in these areas doesn't mean that any one person is right or wrong and should be judged for there breeding (or other) practices.

With that being said there is a lot of taboo on the subject of line breeding because it has been ingrained in our culture that inbreeding is wrong. Some of the reasoning is valid ie the royal Hapsburg defect that was brought up but it is undeniable that inbreeding dogs have made them the most diverse species in the world! So it is something that should we should be able to discuss as breeders on the breeding section of the forum without being shamed. Of course health and quality are categories of "desirable traits" which could be broken down into longevity, type, fur condition, color, size, weight, personality etc.

I hope that some line breeders will see this posting and be willing to post an answer to the breed coefficient question that I posed but if not it is completely understood. I would like to thank the person that posted the lil history lesson, as I was familiar with it, but it's always good to freshen up on the history of the fancy!

Sincerely -

Open-minded and non-judgmental breeder
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Old 07-08-2012, 11:56 PM   #8
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Default Re: Inbreeding Coefficiant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl Hamletry View Post
Well first I would like to say that this thread was targeted at breeders that line breed and after some of these responses I can see why none of them responded. I would like to say that it is not my intention to have those that are for inbreeding to shoot down those that are not or vise versa. We all have different morals, beliefs and ethics that we go by and just because someone else has differences in these areas doesn't mean that any one person is right or wrong and should be judged for there breeding (or other) practices.

With that being said there is a lot of taboo on the subject of line breeding because it has been ingrained in our culture that inbreeding is wrong. Some of the reasoning is valid ie the royal Hapsburg defect that was brought up but it is undeniable that inbreeding dogs have made them the most diverse species in the world! So it is something that should we should be able to discuss as breeders on the breeding section of the forum without being shamed. Of course health and quality are categories of "desirable traits" which could be broken down into longevity, type, fur condition, color, size, weight, personality etc.

I hope that some line breeders will see this posting and be willing to post an answer to the breed coefficient question that I posed but if not it is completely understood. I would like to thank the person that posted the lil history lesson, as I was familiar with it, but it's always good to freshen up on the history of the fancy!

Sincerely -

Open-minded and non-judgmental breeder

Dogs are a great example on why inbreeding is bad. Take a look at this documentary.

Pedigree Dogs Exposed | Watch Free Documentary Online
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Old 07-08-2012, 11:58 PM   #9
Pearl Hamletry
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Default Re: Inbreeding Coefficiant

Quote:
Originally Posted by p_anda View Post
The problem with inbreeding is that the first generation may be completely normal, but as you gradually decrease the offsprings' gene pool, all the recessive traits will come out which may or may not be desirable. Inbreeding emphasises good qualities just as well as bad qualities.

It may not be possible to achieve certain colours and coat types without a considerable amount of inbreeding [see mice for example]. The worst risk categories are parent to pup and sybling to sybling matings. If you continually breed parents to their pups, the second generation may end up with a lot of genetic defects. However, this isn't necessarily bad, because you now know what to expect, but it means you can't inbreed these animals without further risks. The only positive you get out of it is that you uncover all the 'hidden' genetic faults that otherwise would skip generations and would only pop up later on in the line. But by now you might have hamsters that were born without eyes, may be deaf, may develop cancerous tumors early in their lives, etc. What will you do with them? You can't rehome them...you either keep them or have them PTS. Close inbreeding makes for genetically predictable animals but at a cost. Are new colour mutations worth it? Certainly not, if you ask me.

It is a lot safer to inbreed far relatives like cousins and second cousins. Basically the further the generations are apart, the safer it is. It is definitely more difficult to produce the animals you want without heavy inbreeding, but it's not impossible.

Animals rarely inbreed in the wild, that's what all the aggression comes down to, i.e. how mother hamster will chase her pups from her, once they are old enough to live on their own. All young animals are encouraged to 'flee the nest' otherwise the parents or group members may even turn against them.
Hi Panda -

Thanks for the feedback and I would like to clarify that I would not inbreed heavily. I am talking about possibly inbreeding cousins or 2nd cousins just once or twice in a line and outcrossing all the rest of the hamsters. I am considering it, researching it and may not even do any inbreeding. I really just want to know other breeders practices and experiences in line breeding. I respect your feedback on the subject and think that the way that you expressed your ideas was in a very healthy way!
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Old 07-09-2012, 12:04 AM   #10
Pearl Hamletry
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Default Re: Inbreeding Coefficiant

Hi Ren -

Although it is true that some undesirable traits are condensed and more common in dogs and other inbred species, but these same defects can spontaneously pop up in purely out-crossed populations as well. With selective breeding though healthy, more desirable traits can also be bred into a population though inbreeding.
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