Uneducated question

[Pompompoms]

Well Kissa has already mentioned how I started breeding, Tammy's post as the first collaboration was with her will tell you why I started breeding, so really my answer has already been provided!

I very much enjoyed breeding, so when Wessex hams then asked me to breed Whizzbit who is one of the sons I bred from my White boy The Cloud, and Tammy's husky Bianca, I was happy to. I have some big beautiful robos now, and plan to breed my lovely third generation boy Billy for the next generation of pompoms.

As I was breeding for breeders I haven't earned a penny for my hams, and wouldn't have ever thought of it for a second, it was for the joy of it not the money. We've had a couple of incidents that needed vet attention including a midnight emergency op last year that wasn't cheap by any means! You wouldn't believe how much baby hams eat too, I've never got through so much food.

I actually don't even know what I'll charge for Billy's babies, I don't know whether I will charge for them at all, I'll be more concerned with finding loving owners for them with lovely homes for them to live in.

[radiocricket]

I touched upon how I got started breeding in the other thread. Really, it started with my love of Black and White animals! I just really like that color combination. I was in the pet store one day and saw a "Panda Bear" hamster. I just loved it- I'd never seen a Black and White hamster before. I tried to buy it but it wasn't for sale as it had escaped and could have potentially eaten some rat poison so it was being held to make sure it didn't die! Out of curiosity, I looked online for a hamster breeder and found one just a few miles from me. I know now just how lucky I was with that, though the hamster fancy in the US was a bit larger 10 years ago.

This breeder did have a Black Banded hamster, and long haired on top of it all, which I really liked. When I went to get him, I was talking with the breeder and she told me all the genetics of hamsters were known, genotyped. I was hooked. I'd always loved genetics. Even as a younger child, I knew that I wanted to marry someone with blue eyes so that all my children would have blue eyes! I loved that semester in high school where I was able to take a Genetics course. To realize that I could breed mutations purposefully, knowing the outcome, is what got me interested. It also worked out well that hamsters have a short gestation and can breed fairly quickly. You can actually have three generations in a year- meaning that it won't take you years to get to many of your goals.

I'd never had a Syrian before. As a child, I had gerbils, not hamsters, but I spent several months learning about them as a species. I learned about their different mutations, their specific genotypes and how to identify the phenotype of the hamsters I was seeing in our area. I lurked on forums, I talked with the breeder quite a bit. I learned how to evaluate type and began to add hamsters, both from the breeder and also from the pet store. I got that first Black Banded LH male in the spring but didn't breed my first litter until the fall.

It's my love of genetics that drives my hamster hobby. There are enough mutations and possible combinations to keep it interesting. When I felt I'd "mastered" the Syrians, I expanded to the dwarf hamsters. After working with all the species for over a year, I decided that I didn't want to work with the Roborovski or Chinese hamsters any longer. They didn't have the friendly demeanors of the other species and I was allergic to the Chinese hamsters! (Not that there aren't friendly robos or Chinese hamsters, I just wasn't seeing what I like overall).

As with any hobby, hobbies cost money! People are willing to spend money on something that makes them happy be it hamsters, model airplanes, box car racing, quilting, gardening, etc... It's an investment in ourself so to speak. It is very hard to make money on breeding animals if you're doing everything "right". Of course there are exceptions, but those exceptions don't usually apply to hamsters. In a line of show dogs, you can get stud fees, sell the puppies from a champion line for a bit more etc..., but we don't have that in hamsters. It is a general rule in our hobby that all hamsters sell for the same price, no matter the mutation. All of my hamsters sell for $10. A Golden SH, a Black Polywhite LH Rex, a beautiful Chocolate Tortoiseshell, they'll all the same price. We want to stress that all hamsters are equal, no matter their color (even though the pet stores will tell you otherwise).

I thought about it last night when I first saw this post. With the supplies, vet bills, loss of belongings when I had an illness out break, shipping hamsters, food and bedding, etc.., I've spent over $25,000 in the last ten years (I was a bit shocked looking at it that way though $10,000+ was due to the lose of belongs from the illness outbreak). I've only made $2,000 +/-! Obviously there is no profit! Currently, I spend $100-250 a month on food, bedding and other supplies. Again, it's my hobby and where I chose to spend my time and money (and thankfully have a tolerant husband- so important!).

When I got started with the hamsters, I took the same approach I take with anything I do and that is if I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it the best that I possibly can. Why even bother if you're not? I feel you're just wasting your time otherwise. Besides building a reputable hamstery with quality animals, the other thing that I wanted to do was to improve the fancy overall and make it stronger. It's about the hamsters and trying to improve them overall, hoping that my efforts have made some kind of positive impact and hopefully a bit of change.

With that being the case, I give my hamsters to other breeders with the same ideals that I have. I would rather they have stronger hamsters to compliment and incorporated into their lines. I don't see any point in trying to make money doing so. The gains that I'm looking for aren't monetary. It also helps to foster that kind of comradery in the fancy.

I do know that some breeders do have the viewpoint that you mentioned, why release animals that will just end up competing with yours, be it at the show or with sales? I think this just lets you know their motive. I do understand the breeder that doesn't want competition on the show bench, it's just not a philosophy I share. Some people want to be the first with a new mutation and not release it out into the fancy. If they're still exploring it, I understand that, but sometimes people just want the notority of having that gene. Again, I don't quite agree with that but I'm looking at the fancy as a whole. With myself and exploring Polywhite, once I was able to confirm some things about it, I got it into the hands of some other breeders. I felt it better to have them work with it, breed more, get out crosses creating more explorative breedings combined and really, just as "insurance" alone just in case anything happened to my lines.

I am always happy to help people coming into the fancy with motives similar to mine. Unfortunately, that's not often the case. Far more breeders get into it for the wrong reasons. As my previous posts show, I'm pretty direct with them. If they're sincere and just didn't know there were better ways to do things, they'll usually open and ask for help. If not, well, those kind of breeders come and go in this fancy fairly quickly. A few happen to find a little niche for themselves. Really, they're more small commercial breeders than hobby breeders. I cringe whenever I hear that one of them needs to supply a set number of hamsters to a pet store by a given date. I have NEVER breed to satisfy a pet store. The places that get my pups know that I'll call them when I have some available. I am not their sole supplier, I can't be. Perhaps these other breeders justify what they're doing by saying they couldn't breed or have hamsters otherwise but that's the point isn't it?!

Over the years, I've given so much of my time and energy to the breeders wanting to do things right. A few have taken that knowledge and disregarded it, taken out the bits and parts they choose to and ignoring the rest. It's troubling but I know that they know better and have just chosen to do things their way. For that reason, I don't regret the time I spent on them (though I'll never give them any of my hamsters!) and I'll continue helping new, interested breeders. For the last two months, I've been mentoring a small group of breeders that show promise. I'm teaching them genetics, how to evalutate hamsters, about the fancy, etc... and after we get through it all, they'll be getting hamsters from me. I don't even know how many hours I've spent, easily 40+ at this point! I am gaining nothing from this other than the hope that it makes the US hamster fancy stronger. There are very, very few reputable breeders in the US. It's disheartening. I do think my efforts and this group of breeders will change that.

**I realize reading through some of the paragraphs above, it seems that I have a my way or the highway kind of attitude but that's not it. "My way" is one for the betterment of the hamsters and the fancy. I think that if your hamster is sick, you treat it, not look on the internet for "homemade recipes" found on a cavy forum. If you have mites, well, we know how to get rid of them, why wouldn't you? That's just health, then there's the genetics. I think that a good breeder knows their lines and doesn't have question marks for generations on a pedigree. I don't think it's okay to start making up names for colors/patterns you're not familiar with. I don't think it's okay to breed from dwarfs that weren't obtained from a reputatable breeder.

I try to be open minded and realize that breeders will have different ideals than I have. They may like a color that doesn't make sense to me. Everyone's going to prefer different foods and beddings. It's when the basics of animal care and fancy ethics are disregarded that I find culpable.

-Janice

[Pompompoms]

Hi Janice, I really enjoy your posts as they are always so passionate and informative. I am interested from your last one where you say

I don't think it's okay to breed from dwarfs that weren't obtained from a reputatable breeder.

It's no secret at all, and is of course mentioned in this thread that Tammy and I did just that, my dwarf wasn't obtained from a reputable breeder, he was from one of the large chain pet shops here in the UK, he was mated though with a ham from one of the two most reputable dwarf breeders in this country (Tammy), with lines stretching far back, at the request of that breeder.
Obviously it is a question of opinion, and Tammy and I are very happy with what we did, and the results, as those robos are all beautiful and healthy, and have gone on to have two more generations with in my case hams from the other of the two most reputable dwarf breeders in the UK (Wessex Hams), again at the request of that breeder. A third generation of babies for my own hams is my next plan.

Now from my conversations with both breeders, their planning and attention to detail in terms of breeding healthy lines is second to none, and the plans to incorporate the pups into their long established lines were equally impressive.

I accept that you don't agree and have absolutely no issue with that as we are all entitled to our opinions, but I would be interested to read your views purely from the point of perspective. From what I've read of your posts, and I do always read them I respect you hugely as a breeder, obviously I respect Tammy and Wessex hams hugely too. As you are on different sides of the fence on this issue it's interesting to someone that is learning as much as I possibly can about breeding to take in all opinions

[Van Diemen]

This is going to sound really horrid so I want to warn you all before hand because I really don't mean it to be - but don't any of you who do breed hamsters, ever feel like it's just a bit of an ego trip.. Sort of like you have the knowledge of genetics to carry it off and have a need to see if it works out in the flesh so you start breeding.

It just seems sort of selfish to me in a way

[radiocricket]

I should have been more clear Pompompoms and not have said "dwarfs" but singled out Campbells and Winter Whites. Thus far, no widespread issues have been found in the commercially bred Chinese or Roborovskis. This isn't to say that there won't be issues that eventually turn up, but for now, the concern isn't there.

With the Campbells, the major concern is diabetes. One employee of a big box pet store chain here in the US randomly tested the Campbells in their store and found that about 40% of them had diabetes before even going off to their new homes- 40%! We'll never know how many went on to develop late onset diabetes but I can only imagine that percentage is also high. Years ago I got Campbells from a known, multi-species breeder who assured me she'd never seen diabetes in her Campbells. Let me tell you, they had it and the early onset form no less. Sure, she didn't "see" it in her lines as she never bothered to learn about it, how to identify it, or how to test for it. Obviously she didn't test her lines or lied about the outcome. With the early onset diabetes, you can find it hopefully before you breed the hamster, if a breeder cares to look, but unfortunately, the late onset diabetes isn't detectable until the hamster is older and has, presumably, been bred. What do you do then? A breeder surely didn't keep all the resulting pups, did they go out to other breeders as well? This is why you want to find a reputable breeder, one you can trust to be honest, have knowledge of their lines and have good ethics. The other concern with Campbells are temperaments, back-flipping (though I don't think this is seen as much any more) and hybridization.

With the Winter Whites, the major concern is hybridization. It is generally accepted that any Winter White you find in the pet store is a hybrid. The Winter Whites were hybridized to get a hamster with the temperament of a Winter White in all the colors of the Campbells. Most people in the fancy have the philosophy that once a hybrid, always a hybrid. So if a Campbells was introduced into the line 50 generations ago, it's still a hybridized line. Even if the breeder made sure nothing but pure WW were bred to it. That's not a concern of the commercial breeders though. How many times have you gone into a pet store and found WW in with Campbells?

An ego trip? LOL, to who? Even my best friend doesn't know what my reputation is in the hamster fancy! If any of us wanted notoriety, breeding hamsters isn't the way to do it. I know a fair amount about mutations in other species but just because I know about it doesn't mean that I'm going to breed them! I've never seen anyone brag about their genetics knowledge in this fancy. Goodness, I am the one that first figured out the gene transmission of Polywhite and came up with the name but look back through any of my posts to see if I've bragged about it?!

If anything, we hamster breeders keep pretty quiet! Whenever I tell people that I breed hamsters for show, I get all kinds of strange looks and I can only imagine what people think of me!

-Janice

[Van Diemen]

I didn't mean bragging

I mean like, you have all this knowledge and it's not going to any use, so you start breeding to see what you can achieve with said knowledge.
An ego trip to see the products of your work.

You like seeing the different combinations you can create etc etc because it's a hobby and it makes you happy.

But then, if that is how it is - isn't it cruel to force an animal to reproduce just because you like seeing what you're capable of.

^ That's what I meant.

[Kissa]

Originally Posted by Van Diemen

I didn't mean bragging

I mean like, you have all this knowledge and it's not going to any use, so you start breeding to see what you can achieve with said knowledge.
An ego trip to see the products of your work.

You like seeing the different combinations you can create etc etc because it's a hobby and it makes you happy.

But then, if that is how it is - isn't it cruel to force an animal to reproduce just because you like seeing what you're capable of.

^ That's what I meant.

I could take these words out of context and apply them to a significant proportion of human behaviour/hobbies

[radiocricket]

Ah, okay, I understand. I don't think anyone has that. I didn't come into the fancy knowing all the genetics. I was interested and did like that I could predict the outcome. I think if I wanted to "control" my lines genetically, I'd be after hamsters that had many of the genes, but that's not the case. I'm always trying to make my lines more focused. I don't want a hamster with a mess of genes. I want a line in which there's only Black, Rust and Yellow. A line where there's only Silver Grey and Cream. A line that's pure Golden. It's about improving on those colors and that line. Most breeders, including myself, discourage "rainbow litters" and "rainbow hamsteries". Having every gene under the sun is fine if you keep the lines focused. Most breeders don't have the resources for that though.

Let me give you another viewpoint. If there weren't hobby hamster breeders, then the only ones that would be breeding hamsters are the commercial breeders. Having hobby breeders gives the public that's looking for a better quality hamster a place to go. I'd love it if eventually there's a shift to finding all pets from reputable breeders. I believe the public is already aware that it's not good to buy a puppy from a pet store, I'd love for that idea to be widened to incooporate all other pets as well- especially hamsters!

-Janice

[Pompompoms]

Ah, thank you for replying Janice. It often makes me so sad to read on here again and again how surprised and naturally worried people are when the lovely Campbells/WW they have brought home from the pet shop is diagnosed with diabetes. With no warning or advice from the stores and suddenly having to find information quickly to control the health of a loved pet whose needs are far beyond what you were prepared for must be quite overwhelming at times for a new hamster owner.

[Van Diemen]

Ahh coolies thank you

I think I kind of "get" it now haha