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Old 11-06-2011, 12:47 PM   #11
radiocricket
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Default Re: Looking for breeders in the U.S.

I do have to say that your response concerns me and an example of one of the reasons why the hamster fancy has declined so much in the US.

First, your purpose for breeding is to get quantities to supply a pet store. That alone goes against responsible breeding ethics. At that point, you're not a hobby breeder but a commercial one. You will need to get a USDA license which means you need to meed specific husbandry requirements. If you're just keeping the hamsters in a room in your house, it will be more challenging to meet those requirements. Goodness, availability alone could be a concern as when the inspectors make their unannouced visits and no one is there to let them in, that's a violation! There's many different husbandry requirements that will be hard for most hobby breeders to adhere to. Now all the current and past inspection reports are online for all to see so any kind of violation, even one as small as not having a lid on a trash can or having cobwebs in the ceiling corner will be out there.

You can see all the requirements with the .pdf here:
Animal Welfare Act- Part 2- Regulations

There are many specific areas that will be challenging to breeders but to save time I won't go into them unless you're interested.

Second, upon not finding a breeder to get quality lines, you've decided just to breed from commercially bred hamsters with unknown backgrounds. I could list all the possible problems from that scenario but again I'll save my time for now unless you're really interested.

Third, I am the only breeder in the US that I know of that will ship. Some other breeders have shipped in the past but it's infrequent and done when two breeders are exchanging lines or when there's a personal relationship between the breeder and the person receiving the hamsters. Goodness, I'm friends with Linda and still waited two years for a shipment from her! It truly is a great deal of work to put together a shipment of hamsters, especially if a breeder's never done it before.

Fourth, the problem with placing hamsters privately has nothing to do with advertising and location. People will find you if they want to buy from a breeder. I've even had someone drive 5 hours one way to get a pet hamster for their son. The problem is the public just doesn't consider going to a hamster breeder to get a hamster. It's so ingrained to just go to the pet store to buy one. Goodness, look at all the people that still buy puppies from the pet stores and there's so much more public awareness about why that is bad. If you've not realized that then you really haven't had much experience with placing pups and it again just doesn't make sense to jump into such a large scale breeding venture.

Lastly, you've clearly not thought any of this through. There's much more to breeding for pet stores than you're realizing. Again, I know it sounds like a good idea but it's just not an easy thing to do. Years ago I would place my pups with pet stores. It was always frustrating. A pet store may need hamsters now, but by the time you have pups ready (sometimes it's just two days later as I'd never place them younger just to make a pet store happy), they've found hamsters elsewhere and now you have a whole bunch of pups on your hands with no where to take them. Pet stores are very particular about the hamsters they do want. They don't want a whole litter of Goldens or a whole litter of Blacks. They want a variety, a "rainbow" of colors. One pet store that I still supply wants every hamster to be different- no two of the same color, coat type and pattern...and all males. It's the only pet store that I still sell to and even then, they only get 1-2 shipments of 36 hamsters from me a year. It is a great deal of work but I support what they're trying to do and if one pet store makes that change, perhaps more will follow their lead which will impact the fancy for the better. If the pet store you're supplying does accept say, 8 Blacks, 8 Doves and 8 Creams from you, you'll see that they just won't sell as fast and again, next month what are you going to do with all the new pups you have ready to sell them and they just don't need? Do you just try to get them to take what they can and let them drop those young pups in with the older ones? Do you start calling around to other pet stores that you've not screened just to get rid of them or do you hold onto them and suspend all new breedings until things balance out again?

The other challenge you'll face with supplying a pet store is you'll find that more than once, they won't need your hamsters as one of their customers has brought in a "free" litter for them. The pet stores do like these "free" litters as sometimes they're truly free, other times they'll give that customer a store credit which the store will still come out ahead with.

Again, there's much more to be said. I do hope you take a longer look at it and start of slowly than more to fast and end up in a situation that doesn't work for you or the hamsters.

-Janice
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Old 11-06-2011, 01:23 PM   #12
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Default Re: Looking for breeders in the U.S.

Janice, Almi does know most of your points (stated in your newest post, haven't really read your others) as she has done this in the past.
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Old 11-06-2011, 01:43 PM   #13
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Default Re: Looking for breeders in the U.S.

She stated that she's bred a litter here and there in the past, which is much different than breeding quantities to supply a pet store. Supplying a pet store has more considerations than breeding in general. I do have experience with this, which my posts reflect.

As always, I believe that the ingretity of the fancy is important and should be considered and upheld in all breeding scenarios, no matter the species.

-Janice
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Old 11-06-2011, 02:02 PM   #14
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Default Re: Looking for breeders in the U.S.

I just want to add I really really really would suggest against breeding from pet shop hamsters. I have much stronger feelings about this now as I've just lost my wonderful little girl Nanashi (hybrid campbells) due to poor breeding is my suspision. I believe this was what caused a SEVERE rectal prolapse and had to be PTS as a result...she was only 8 months old...I got her from a pet shop at 3 months. In the end I know it will be the OP's choice on what they do...but I want to share my story here to hopefully prevent such a heart break from happening to someone else.
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Old 11-07-2011, 12:06 AM   #15
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Default Re: Looking for breeders in the U.S.

To add to Firedrake's post, I have a ~1 year old winter white hybrid who's been diagnosed with kidney failure, which she must have acquired fairly young, judging by her weight loss pattern. She's been on very good diet and with access to clean water at all times--it just happened, and I also suspect due to poor health from inconsiderate hybrid breeding. She avoided developing diabetes, but that could have happened too. You just never know what you're dealing with when you get a pet store hamster.

I'm actually quite ready to make a very long train ride for my next hamster after worrying so much for my current--and that's just for pet purposes. I'd never breed hamsters with unknown history to avoid potential suffering their babies could live with. Moreover, if someone bred "high quality" healthy hamsters near me, I'd gladly pay a whole lot more than pet stores charge.

P.S.: please excuse my rather simplistic language here--it's super late, and my brain's barely working...
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Last edited by Hamtastic; 11-07-2011 at 12:14 AM.
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Old 11-07-2011, 09:08 AM   #16
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Default Re: Looking for breeders in the U.S.

I know other members can chime in on storys of hamsters that were bought from petshops that had health issues, and from what it seems like that it does come down to the dwarfs in a lot of cases. What concerns me is that the OP mentioned breeding WW and/or Campbells, which any that are bought from petshops are more often than not hybrids I would consider them not breeding "stock". Maybe I'm being harsh because I'm still hurting from the loss of my little girl, but, again, I don't want to see others go through this.

Another thought I had lastnight is if this pet shop that these babies are to go to decideds not to take them, what will happen to them? Myself I had two Oops litters from hamsters that were bought pregnant (unknowingly), while I'm finally getting some rehomed now, I had many homes fall through... and found it quite hard to find new homes for them. Are you willing to take on the responsiblity of having these babies in your home should something fall through, do the extra work to find them good homes if needed?
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Old 11-07-2011, 12:30 PM   #17
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Default Re: Looking for breeders in the U.S.

You may consider what I say "over the top", but......it's my opinion so yeah.

I strongly believe it's ethically wrong to breed an animal without knowing it's background. You could be setting these Hamster up for all kinds of health problems and suffering. Not fair on them at all. If you can get Hamsters and you know their background, then sure, breed. If not, don't.
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Old 11-08-2011, 12:46 PM   #18
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Default Re: Looking for breeders in the U.S.

Well, I do want to say that there is certainly not "one right way" to do things, but I do agree that breeding pet store hamsters is not desirable. However, I would like to get started immediately, because I do love breeding hamsters, and I don't want to give up this opportunity. I do still plan to eventually find someone that will ship to me, but in the meantime I am doing what I can. It may not seem right to you, but it is what I am going to do, however annoying and painful that is to hear.

I honestly believe the reason we have very few GOOD breeders anywhere is because all of the hamster enthusiasts and breeders convince the general population that breeding hamsters is not something that should be done by anyone except experts, and only in one specific way - and that they are certainly not capable of becoming an expert in the field and no one trusts them to breed "correctly." Not to mention it seems to me a lot of breeders just won't release their precious hamsters (for instance, just because I plan to breed and sell the babies to a pet store owned by people I trust to find them good homes) that easily, especially because a lot of them won't ship. If no one will ship to me, then how else am I supposed to obtain breeding stock? If anything, breeders should be encouraging people to continue good lines by shipping and offering them lots of information so they can start breeding too (which btw, I appreciate the information you have provided to me, Janice, though I'm not sure if you're truly trying to help me or just deter me). If it doesn't work out for the person, it doesn't work out. It's really not the end of the world.

I have bred plenty of litters, but was definitely not breeding on a large scale. By "here and there" I mean I never had more than one or two litters at once and sometimes I didn't even have any babies available. And on that note, YES, due to my location in North Dakota, the population is low, and most of the people that are here just don't care to get a hamster from a breeder. Sure, I have met people in Minnesota, but those were few and far between. It just wasn't worth it to keep breeding, and impossible unless I wanted to rehome the hamsters on Craigslist and/or keep all of the litters.

Also, if people don't know you are there, they won't find you! You have to have some way to advertise. If people are aware that there is a good breeder around that they can get a hamster from and it is put in front of them and easily accessible, they might actually make that decision. The truth is, though, people don't care to go out of their way to find a breeder - very few people found my website and contacted me. The reason I did stop breeding in the end was because I WAS sick of breeding pet store hamsters, and also, once I had a litter for so long that the pet store wouldn't take, I just stopped breeding and stopped calling them. So yes, I am very aware of that happening. This time, I believe I would be their sole provider, I especially believe this because I went into their store a week ago, and they had zero hamsters...a bit daunting to me to think that they are counting on me to fill those habitats.

Anyway, I must say I am an intelligent human being capable of reason, and I am not new to this at all. Lol. The only thing that is new to me is trying to meet a quota of animals every month. I'm definitely not interested in cutting corners to meet this, so I will try my best. Worst case scenario, the store decides they no longer wish to purchase hamsters from me. Again, not the end of the world. At least I tried and the experience was enjoyable.

I am pretty sure it is possible to be a hobby breeder and sell to a pet store, but I will definitely take into consideration what you have said, Janice.

At this point I am still looking for a breeder that will ship to me, preferrably next spring when it is warmer, or even summer, since I am expecting a baby next May. Other than that, I am well aware of how everyone feels about hamster breeding when it is not done in the exact way they think it should be done, because I have jumped on the bandwagon and preached the very same in the past.

One more thing. People are talking about "my hamster had this health problem, and I believe it is because they came from a pet store" stories. While it may be true that pet store hamsters are not as hardy as hamsters bred by a breeder, and true that some might be genetically predisposed to certain health problems later in life, generally it is partially luck and partially diet and other environmental factors that contribute to what happens to the hamster as far as health problems. Not to mention that a hamster that comes from a pet store does not automatically develop health problems. Some do, some don't. It can also be safe to say that perhaps the reason breeders never see much illness among their stock is because they take EXCELLENT care of their animals and feed them good quality food, particularly early in life. It's kind of like how human babies that are breastfed tend to have higher IQ's and less health problems (in the beginning as well as later in life) than babies that are formula fed. Things like that can make all the difference.

I have had plenty of hamsters that came from pet stores be extremely healthy and hardy (though still not necessarily a good excuse to breed them, just making a point)...and my favorite story to tell is about my three hybrid boys. Their mother was a random, nasty little normal Campbell's that was found in the PetSmart store manager's garage (I happen to know him, as I used to work there), and their father was a good-natured hybrid the color of a pearl winter white. Well, they happened to have an accidental litter together and produced two normal hybrids and one pearl hybrid, all boys. I kept all three instead of rehoming them, as I didn't want them being bred, and they were actually the first litter of dwarfs I have ever had, and I loved them. They all lived to be 2.5 years old with zero health problems, and in fact were so sweet (to both humans and their cagemates) that they never needed to be separated. Once they reached the 2.5 year mark, the two normals died of old age, leaving me with the pearl. He was still in extremely good health when he was killed by a rat that had escaped. No doubt that hamster would have lived to be 3...

Anyway, just my two cents.
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Old 11-08-2011, 01:10 PM   #19
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Default Re: Looking for breeders in the U.S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almi View Post
If it doesn't work out for the person, it doesn't work out. It's really not the end of the world.
Not the end of the world for you but what about the animals? Not the end of the world when you have litters born with extreme health problems or blind eyed little things...

Where did the pet shop get its hamsters from before or have they never sold them?
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Old 11-08-2011, 01:18 PM   #20
Almi
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Default Re: Looking for breeders in the U.S.

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Originally Posted by Gamina View Post
Not the end of the world for you but what about the animals? Not the end of the world when you have litters born with extreme health problems or blind eyed little things...

Where did the pet shop get its hamsters from before or have they never sold them?
...That's not what I was referring to. I was referring to one finding that they just didn't have the capacity to breed hamsters (care for so many, find homes for them, etc.).

I know they used to get them from a local breeder before...definitely not a guy that had much in mind when it comes to quality or temperament based on the animals I've seen come through the store from him. I think perhaps for a while they have been ordering them from some commercial breeder/hamster mill, but I'm not entirely sure. I only knew where they were getting their hamsters from when I worked there.
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