When does general squabbling become fighting?

[Westie UK]

Hey all,

I've had several hamsters before, but all of them lived separately. I had 3 gerbils living together, but they never really squabbled (that we noticed).

I've got my first pair of hamsters, Joey and Figaro. They're Russian Dwarves and we're fairly sure they're both campbells and both male, though one is significantly chunkier. We got them on 22nd December and they live in an 80 x 50 storage box.

They stay upstairs and are let out into a DIY playpen for 5 - 15 minutes every night. I put a couple of things from their home in there, when they are; like a wheel, wheel saucer and edible log tunnel. They seem to really like being in it and it has different sections and things to explore, made out of cardboard.

My question is how to know when it's innocent squabbling or the start of fighting? The last two nights, I've been woken up by squeaking. I get up and check on them, but it stops. It happened 3 times both nights, then not another peep all night.

They often sleep together and sometimes apart, but always in the same shoebox. They seem to get on the rest of the time and there's two of almost everything; two different types of wheels, a water bottle and water bowl (they both use both), two different types of tunnels (with extra cardboard tubes), one large food bowl and one area where some food goes (in case there's any territorial behaviour).

I only separate them (same box/playpen, just move one to a different area) if Fig (the bigger one) is sitting on Joey, but they tend to go back to each other afterwards, which gives me hope that it's nothing serious that will need permanent separation. Although, after the third squabble last night, I did put Fig in an old cage (with a wheel, food, water, bed and tunnel) for 5 or so minutes.

There are no marks and I'd definitely separate permanently if there's any blood or signs of stress, like hair loss. There don't appear to be any lasting issues, like tension between them, and I can't tell for sure which one causes it, but my guess would be Fig.

Sorry for the essay. I just want to know how to tell if it's simple squabbling or if it's something to worry about? Also, I've read and heard that you can separate them for a short time and try reintroducing them, then keep them apart if there are still problems. Has anyone got any experience needing to separate pairs for 12 hours or less, then reintroduce them?

Thanks in advance!

[SKB_Hamsters]

Fight can happen at any time - when I owned a pair many years ago my girls got on perfectly fine no signs of squabble or fight but one night I was awoken to squeaking/screening as Caramel was being attacked by Honey. From my experience I would separate them now - to prevent things escalating further especially when most fall outs happen during the night (and some fight can be very serious and possible fatal)

You should never try reintroducing 2 Hamster back together after being separated - once separated they need to be kept alone. Dwarf hamster live more happily alone - it can be quite stressful for the submissive hamster living in a pair and is more natural to them to be solitary. In the wild they would have cohabited in male-female pairs and never same sex like we do in captivity - in capitivity keeping male-female pairs isn’t recommended as this will lead to unethical and out of control breeding - this is why it recommend to keep dwarf hamster solitary (same as Syrian and Chinese) as when they reach maturity (like your boys) their hormones will begin to take over which can lead to more serious fight.

[Westie UK]

Originally Posted by SKB_Hamsters

Fight can happen at any time - when I owned a pair many years ago my girls got on perfectly fine no signs of squabble or fight but one night I was awoken to squeaking/screening as Caramel was being attacked by Honey. From my experience I would separate them now - to prevent things escalating further especially when most fall outs happen during the night (and some fight can be very serious and possible fatal)

You should never try reintroducing 2 Hamster back together after being separated - once separated they need to be kept alone. Dwarf hamster live more happily alone - it can be quite stressful for the submissive hamster living in a pair and is more natural to them to be solitary. In the wild they would have cohabited in male-female pairs and never same sex like we do in captivity - in capitivity keeping male-female pairs isn’t recommended as this will lead to unethical and out of control breeding - this is why it recommend to keep dwarf hamster solitary (same as Syrian and Chinese) as when they reach maturity (like your boys) their hormones will begin to take over which can lead to more serious fight.

Thank you for your response. I know Syrians and Chinese hamsters must live alone, but dwarf hamsters can live in pairs and it is common for them to. I know that fighting can happen at any time (and would separate them if there are signs of aggression/tension/stress), but lots of research shows dwarf hamsters can live happily with others or alone and that, like humans, they will sometimes squabble with no long term issues.

Do you have research to back up your comments? As I'm happy to separate them, if it would be better for them, but I won't separate them just for the sake of it and I've read that it's actually *good* for dwarf hamsters to live together, unless they're fighting or stressed.

[souffle]

There is plenty evidence on the forum regarding dwarf hamsters needing separated and in my personal experience of over 40 years I have encountered this scenario over and over again.
Some dwarf hamsters do and will accept and live happily with a cage mate all their lives. Mostly they don't. Single sex pairs are never really a natural situation and just would not occur in the wild. Groups would be mixed sex and ages.
The one key statement you made that indicates stress to me is that one is chunkier than the other. This often means the small one is being bullied and kept from the food by the larger one. Another possibility is that they were mixed sex and the larger one is a pregnant female. She may well bully the male if pregnant.
If they came from a pet shop they will be Hybrids and these have varying amounts of Campbells & WW genes influencing the behavior in each individual. A mismatched pairing can result in varying behaviors so they don't fully 'understand' each other and end up fighting. They don't need to draw blood for one to be stressed and bullied. Mental stress is just as bad and leading to constant release of stress hormones can make the hamster unwell mentally.
True fighting is unmistakeable. The pitch of the squeals is intense and the hamsters will be tussling violently. This can start up very suddenly.
It is up to you of course what you do however I would suggest you monitor them very closely and keep them near you so you can hear and really bad fights. Weigh them and make sure they are continuing to grow well. 3-4 months is about the age of maturity when fights tend to start. I would never risk re- introducing myself. You have to ask yourself why you want to do that because if they fought once they are telling you something. I have heard of robos being re - intoduced sometimes but it can take some time and usually done when they are about 8-9 months and well in to adulthood.

[SKB_Hamsters]

Originally Posted by Westie UK

Do you have research to back up your comments? As I'm happy to separate them, if it would be better for them, but I won't separate them just for the sake of it and I've read that it's actually *good* for dwarf hamsters to live together, unless they're fighting or stressed.

This forum (along with other hamster forums) have multiple thread regarding dwarf hamsters falling out or fighting. These are some searches done on the forum ...
http://www.hamstercentral.com/commun...archid=2837360
http://www.hamstercentral.com/commun...archid=2837362

As souffle mentioned stress can also be mental stress.

However it is completely up to when you feel is the right thing to.

[Fluffagrams]

Whilst it has been known that some dwarf hamsters have lived happily together, this is in many situations not the case and one hamster can easily be bullying the other without there being obvious signs of real fighting.

Fights can occur very suddenly and can have rather serious consequences so they will need close monitoring and I would have something that you could use to contain one just in case a fight occurs in the middle of the night.

[Westie UK]

I've been unwell today, so have been at home with them and off of work for the next two days, so I'm going to continue keeping an eye on them. They're downstairs with me during the day and upstairs in my room at night. They've been quiet and snuggling with each other for most of today.

As someone with mental health challenges, I don't underestimate any stress in any animal (by "stress", I mean mental stress, not physical stress). If I'm at all uncertain about their well-being by the time I go back to work in two days, I will separate them permanently. If anything seriously concerns me between now and then, I will separate them permanently. I won't risk their health, just because I'd prefer to keep them together. I also wouldn't reintroduce them if it was an actual fight; I was talking about a squabble - sorry if that wasn't clear.

Both get enough food; I've made sure of it. Their squabbles have been in the shoebox bed they choose to share (there are other places to sleep), not around their food and neither are underweight or pushed around. The squabbles are over quickly and they don't always walk away afterwards.

I'm taking them to the vets tomorrow to have their sexes checked, as I want to make sure the pet shop people haven't made a mistake. If they are opposite sex, but not pregnant, I will separate them. If one is pregnant, I will find a rescue experienced in breeding to take care of it through the pregnancy and see if they will allow me to have it back once it's babies don't need it and are being rehomed.

Even if they are both male, I will still do as I have said above - monitor their behaviour and make a decision by 25th (sooner, if it gets worse). Either I will separate them permanently or the squabbling will stop and I will go back to just being aware of it, as any pet owner should be.

Thank you for your experiences.

Originally Posted by Fluffagrams

Whilst it has been known that some dwarf hamsters have lived happily together, this is in many situations not the case and one hamster can easily be bullying the other without there being obvious signs of real fighting.

Fights can occur very suddenly and can have rather serious consequences so they will need close monitoring and I would have something that you could use to contain one just in case a fight occurs in the middle of the night.

They are closely monitored, though they don't seem to bother each other during the day. They stay in my room at night, so I can hear them. I also have a spare cage set up, in case they do need to be separated without warning.

[Westie UK]

I can't seem to edit my replies, so I will have to hope someone adds it

They only squabbled once, last night. I put Figaro in the spare cage with the saucer wheel for 5 minutes and they didn't squabble again. I watched them for 20 minutes, after putting him back in, just to be sure they were interacting well and they were - passing each other with no problem, sharing the food bowl and wheels, then both going back into the shoebox to sleep.

They're back downstairs with me today, so I'll be keeping an eye on them again and they'll be seeing the vet later to check that they are both okay - I'm fairly sure they're both male and Winter Whites, based on the research I've done, though there is always a chance they are hybrids.

Either way, we'll see what happens and I will separate them permanently, if they seem unhappy or stressed living together.

[Westie UK]

A month later update: For a few days, it continued. I'd separate them like a time out for a few minutes, letting the "dominant" one run in the ball, so the smaller one got time to himself in the box.

Whilst I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, as it's a judgement call for the individual, the "time outs" do seem to have worked (even though I know the hamsters won't understand it much, if at all). They're now both a similar size and I very rarely hear any squabbling, during the day or night (someone is nearly always in earshot) and they haven't had to be separated in over two weeks They are still getting on well; grooming each other, sleeping together and sleeping separately, sharing things, etc. They'll stay together for as long as this continues. They'll be separated if it starts happening again because that will be a pattern.

[Pebbles82]

That is good the squabbling has stopped. Keep an eye on it.