Bin Cage for a Syrian

[Trioxin]

Hello guys!

I recently adopted a syrian ham, Clover. Cue adorable picture plug...

http://i64.tinypic.com/301h5om.jpg

She's a sweetheart, very tame, very active, but unfortunately we're finding her to be a wee bit of an attention seeker. I anxiously made a post in hamster behaviour about her unfortunate bar chewing and after putting her to some tests (basically recording her to see whether she bar chews when I'm in the room) she does it to get my attention to be let out! For now, placing a thin blanket over the front of her cage seems to trick her into thinking I'm not there. She's more than enough toys, her wheel is working fine and her cage is big enough from what I've been told so I can only assume it's just her acting up to come back out as it tends to flare up when she goes back in.

However, I'm trying to prepare for whether this becomes a habit, or whether she figures out I'm actually still in the room, by collecting advice for making a bin cage for a syrian. I've been trying to go through all the forums to get what I need but I just seem to get turned in circles there's so many! My Dad is luckily more adept at DIY than me so he's agreed that if we need to, he'll help me make a new cage for mini cow.

So here's what I'm wondering (apologies if these are asked way too often as I suspect they may, I just had trouble finding all the right posts specifically about syrians. :oops: )

- My syrian is currently housed in the Alaska cage, what floor dimensions should I be aiming for to find for a suitable bin cage?

- What woods are safe to use for extra levels and potential DIY toys?

- What do they need to be treated with, if anything?

- What size mesh should I be looking for, for the ventilation areas?

- How much ventilation is needed? I've seen some bin cages with a large panel just on the lid, others with some on the sides? (Putting it on the sides seems a little counter intuitive for what I need but I'm not an expert on bin cages. It'd be my luck that the little bugger would chew those panels as well.)

- Any suggestions for good standing wheels (and what size for a syrian, I've only ever had flying saucers after providing a more suitable cage for my old ham, Sherlock)? I currently have a flying saucer but I feel like if I swap to the bin cage I may as well take the opportunity to change up the exercise wheel and give as much floor space as possible.

- What glues would be safe to use on any wood toys I try to make?

- The hanging toys I currently have, have chain links on them which I've been told can be an issue if mini cow isn't careful, and I think they might not be long enough for a bin cage (the depth seems to increase along with the width and length by an insane amount.) What twine or rope can I use that won't be harmful and preferable that would survive the force of mini cow on a big chew day :mad: ? Cause she seems to really like hanging toys.

Is there anything else I should be aware of or consider? I feel like I had a million more questions but they've gone for now. #-o I'll edit if I remember!

Thank you in advance.

[JLPrairie]

1/4-inch mesh is suitable, being as small as possible while still being able to hang toys from it. Never really owned Syrians before, but I know that the majority of the people on this forum hate flying saucers, so you're right in wanting to switch it. I think they need 8+ inches. Flour glue is the best, (ratio 1:2 for water to flour) but Elmer's Glue is the best if you want a stronger glue since it's one of the few glues that will take a stance on not using animal parts.

[Trioxin]

1/4-inch mesh is suitable, being as small as possible while still being able to hang toys from it. Never really owned Syrians before, but I know that the majority of the people on this forum hate flying saucers, so you're right in wanting to switch it. I think they need 8+ inches. Flour glue is the best, (ratio 1:2 for water to flour) but Elmer's Glue is the best if you want a stronger glue since it's one of the few glues that will take a stance on not using animal parts.
Thanks for the advice!

Really? Back when I had Sherlock everyone fawned over flying saucers because it was apparently easy on the back and quiet which is why I still have a big one! Is it a health thing or just the fact they take up space or something? I know some people have issues with them being loud but after putting a bit of Vaseline on the inside of mine it's been quiet as ever.

Stuff changes I guess!

[cypher]

The main problem with bin cages for syrians is finding a bin big enough, most will have less floor space then the cage she's used to, I've only used RUB so I'm not sure what else may be big enough but the largest RUB has a floor space of 3834 sq cm while the alaska is 4032 sq cm but someone may know of a bigger more suitable bin.

The best wood for levels or toys is kiln dried pine.
If you need to waterproof wood use Plastikote water based enamel.

Mesh can be anything between 6mm & 13 mm. Smaller mesh makes chewing harder as they can't get their teeth into the gaps.

I would recommend at least one side panel as well as a meshed top for adequate ventilation.

PVA glue is fine for wood toys.

There's a guide to wheels here (http://www.hamstercentral.com/community/housing/62727-guide-suitable-hamster-wheels.html) flying saucers aren't ideal as a main wheel as they do tend to run with a bit of a twist to the spine.

Sisal string is about the safest for hanging things, you can also use things like pear clips or book rings which are larger so don't trap little feet.

That is a cute adorable pic :) She's lovely!

[Trioxin]

The main problem with bin cages for syrians is finding a bin big enough, most will have less floor space then the cage she's used to, I've only used RUB so I'm not sure what else may be big enough but the largest RUB has a floor space of 3834 sq cm while the alaska is 4032 sq cm but someone may know of a bigger more suitable bin.

The best wood for levels or toys is kiln dried pine.
If you need to waterproof wood use Plastikote water based enamel.

Mesh can be anything between 6mm & 13 mm. Smaller mesh makes chewing harder as they can't get their teeth into the gaps.

I would recommend at least one side panel as well as a meshed top for adequate ventilation.

PVA glue is fine for wood toys.

There's a guide to wheels here (http://www.hamstercentral.com/community/housing/62727-guide-suitable-hamster-wheels.html) flying saucers aren't ideal as a main wheel as they do tend to run with a bit of a twist to the spine.

Sisal string is about the safest for hanging things, you can also use things like pear clips or book rings which are larger so don't trap little feet.

That is a cute adorable pic :) She's lovely!
Funnily enough we have 84 Litre RUB but it does seem just a wee bit smaller than the Alaska, but at this point unless we can somehow find a bigger bin this may be our resort if she becomes a serial bar chewer. I'd hate to think she'd hurt herself because of it. My Dad's certain he can add an extra level with wood and a bit of tinkering but I always like to see decent floor space.

I swear finding a decent storage box where I am seems like mining for gold, ah!

Thanks for the advice! I'm shocked about the saucer mainly because I was absolutely hounded into getting one on here back when I looked after Sherlock and Lupin! Never even considered things would change. Such a shame too, she lives on hers. I'll have to see about replacing it.

She's so sweet, bless her. A lot tamer than I thought she was! I think I was more scared of her, than her of me haha.

[Pebbles82]

Hi there. There are a number of reasons for bar chewing. It is trying to get attention, but sometimes they're trying to tell you something - eg if something in the cage isn't right for them. Say if the wheel is stuck and not spinning, or something is broken and they can't get to the food bowl, or there isn't enough substrate or something. Quite clever little things when they want to tell you something :-)

It can also become a habit, bar chewing. I'm not sure how your cage is set up now, but the Alaska cage is a good size for a Syrian (although some do like bigger). One thing that makes me think is - the house it comes with (the little white one on the shelf) is not a suitable a house for a Syrian - it's a bit too small, the holes in it are a bit too small (a Syrian could get stuck in them with full pouches) and it is on a shelf rather than open to the substrate underneath.

If the flying saucer is too small (ie smaller than a 12" one) she will be unhappy about that too. A lot of new owners only put a thin layer of substrate on the bottom of the cage which can also make them a bit unhappy. And with toys with chains she might feel insecure as well possibly.

So - without seeing your set up, I would try to adjust it before thinking about trying a different cage.

1) A minimum of 3 to 4 inches depth of substrate is usually recommended. But 6 to 8 inches is best. You won't get 8" in an Alaska without it falling out of the bars, but you should be able to get about 6" in if you fill the base to within 1cm of the top of the base. You can also heap it up in the middle a bit. Hammies love lots of substrate. They can burrow down in it, even dig tunnels. Also it cushions falls if they climb to the top of the cage and then drop. They can really injure themselves if they fall and there isn't enough soft bedding underneath. Deeper bedding also helps reduce the fall height from the top. It can help to have any hard floor toys under a shelf.

In fact if the house is too small and there's not enough substrate to burrow down in to nest, it could be why she's chuntering.

2) House. They need something big enough to build a good sized nest in, that is open underneath, sat on top of the substrate and dark inside. They can then do normal behaviours like burying the hoard under the nest and so on. A shoebox house is a good temporary (or permanent) option. Cut the bottom out of the shoe box, cut a hole in the front for a door and keep the lid as a lift-off roof. That way you can check inside without destroying her nest. A good place to put it might be partly under the shelf. The roof can also make another level. Putting a bendy stick bridge over the door helps make it darker inside and gives a ramp up to the "roof".

3) Wheel. A 28cm Trixie wheel is a good basic, cheap Syrian sized wheel - costs about £8 or £9 from Amazon. A really good wheel is the 12" Silent Runner - you can get bar attachments and fix it to the bars as high as you want it without having to worry about it falling over, being unstable etc, and still have a good depth of substrate underneath it, so that increases the floor area bit too. However, it's an expensive wheel. Costs about £25 and the bar attachment is another £5 approximately. But it's worth investing in and can be used in any cage taller than 35cm - either on its stand (which is metal, safe and sturdy) or attached to bars. A flying saucer as an extra wheel can be fun for a Syrian, but they do really need a standard upright wheel as the main wheel - they run better in it and they need to run with a straight back to avoid spinal problems. Having both can take up quite a lot of floor area, but if you already have the 12" flying saucer I think you could fit both in ok. If the flying saucer is smaller than 12" then it needs taking out (but maybe not until you've got a replacement wheel - they go frantic without any wheel at all).

Yes toys with chains can be an issue - they can get a toe or foot caught in a chain and end up hanging by a broken leg. If it's a tube you could use the chain to tie the tube to the side of the cage though, where the chain itself isn't accessible. Or you can use sisal string to tie things on (it's supposed to be safe to chew but other string isn't) - or I sometimes use cable ties.

So if you get her the basics sorted - wheel, house, substrate and masses of nesting materials (strips of torn up sheets of plain white toilet paper is safest and they like it), maybe scatter feed her food for a while (put half the usual in the food bowl and scatter the other half on the substrate so she can forage for it) she may settle down in the cage. As you need to get a wheel (and maybe a house) anyway it could be worth a try first, because they can be used in another cage.

Other than that, some kind of tube/floor toy is usually popular. Little hidey places like a coconut shell with a hole in (make sure the hole is big enough - 6cm diameter or more), treat chew sticks, are good and also help keep the teeth worn down.

For hanging toys I think rat sputniks are good - they're safe and a good size for a Syrian. Having it hanging next to a shelf helps so they can get in it. I also tied a rat tube to the roof of my cage leading from the sputnik to another shelf on the other side, which gave a kind of roof run.

To answer your other questions:

Pine shelves are ok (untreated plain pine). Most people use plastikote water based enamel paint to waterproof wood items - it's pet safe. But not the spray - the little pot you paint on with a brush.

1 cm square mesh is usually used for bin cages. Lots of ventilation. Elmer's school glue is safe.

If you have a photo of her cage it might help with suggestions :-) Sometimes it can be something really simple like the position of a water bottle or something.

They will definitely try and get attention if there's no water in the bottle for example.

Anyway hope this helps. It would be hard to find a bin with as big a floor area, and the Alaska has a lovely big front door which helps with taming and interaction.

[cypher]

The measurements I gave are for the 145L RUB which is a bit bigger than the one you have (not that much, it's taller hence the larger volume) but still a fair bit smaller than the alaska, I use one for one of my Chinese hams & it's only just big enough for him really.

ETA I forgot to say don't forget about the height you'll need with a syrian size wheel, I only have a 9" dwarf size wheel in my 145L RUB & that's only just high enough for the wheel & a reasonably deep layer of substrate under it.

[Trioxin]

Hello! I've wittled it down ever since she started doing it. I'm still not 100% because I never want to be certain and disappointed if things change, but I do think it's her way of getting attention to get out.

I vaselined the spinner because I was worried it was getting jammed - but I've been watching her on it and it's fine. I do a mix between hiding food (gives her something to do if she's wandering out) and there's some in a bowl near her water so I doubt it's that since I know she can get to them lol.

She doesn't use the white house and instead burrows underneath the plastic shelf instead, it's like a mountain of a nest I tell you, mix of carefresh and tissue she's personally cut to shape lol, she has a sandbath on top instead and I just use the house when she's taken out for play time since it's hanging around.

Saucer is 12" I believe, and she has a decent layer of substrate on the bottom, she's constantly digging around in it, and as far as I can tell she likes the hanging toys, since there's bits chewed out of them. I'll attach a little pic.

This was after taken on suggestions from the other forum, so it's packed with stuff to distract her from bar chewing. I do wonder if it might be a bit much, honestly. I've got a mix of woods, loofahs, a whimzee, wooden bridges, just to give her different options. She seems fond of the whimzees, and it's a cute crocodile.

I'm honestly debating now taking the hanging toys apart and either remaking them with whatever string is safe or perhaps making something new out of them.

Sorry if the picture is a little dark, I don't want to bug her with the flash and it just reflects off the bars either way!

http://i68.tinypic.com/e6qdg1.jpg

She's calmed down a lot from the first time she did it. It's just funny that it was coincidentally the first time she realised I could let her out, and if I'm not in the room or she can't see me she doesn't seem to bother!

I really don't want to give up the Alaska honestly, and I doubt I can get a bin big enough but I'm really trying to cover all bases just in case she does make a habit from it.

Perhaps it'd be better for me to move the food and water bowl down near the saucer so it's easier for her, especially after running? I'll have to save up for a new wheel for now so I can't take the saucer out just yet, I think she might go mad!

[Trioxin]

Definitely no good then! It'll have to stay as a mini play pen for now so she can have a change of scenery.

I'm wondering if perhaps adding cardboard to the places she chew might be a plan, just so she's chewing on anything but the metal? She only does it at the doors and occasionally climbs to the corners of the cage and does it there. (As you can see I added some toys to try and distract her from the corners which actually seems to have worked, lol.)

[cypher]

Cardboard through the bars can often help break the habit so it's worth a try.
If you haven't already try to get her into a routine so she knows what time she can expect attention & interaction, they usually learn pretty quick & then she may be less likely to chew the bars outside that time, I know it's hard but do keep ignoring her when she does it or it will just get worse.
As far as I can tell from the photo it looks as though you could still add more substrate, that would give more opportunity to dig & burrow, you can also hide tubes or partially hide them under the substrate for a bit more interest.
Have a look through the lets see your cages (http://www.hamstercentral.com/community/housing/66113-lets-see-your-cages-may-2016-a.html) thread if you haven't already for more ideas too.
I'd take that ladder on the chains out if I were you, it's not just the chains but open rung ladders can be dangerous too.
I do think there's a good chance you can get her over this with patience & a few changes & still keep her in the alaska so don't get too disheartened just yet!

Hope you don't mind me saying but you don't really need to quote every reply you respond too, it does make reading the threads a bit harder!

[Trioxin]

I'll ask my Dad to pick up some boxes from the fishing store he goes to regularly, can't help but try.

I'm trying to get her out roughly 8pm since she starts stirring around that time, and I think if I cover up her view of me while I'm still awake she realises it's not time to be out, early doors I think yet still but I like being prepared.

Noted, I'll mess around with it more when it's up tonight. I think I probably will be able to keep the Alaska if I get her into a routine and don't reward her for chewing the bars but we will see.

My bad, it's mainly for my benefit since I haven't got the best memory but I'll remove them now

[Pebbles82]

I think your cage looks good and not too much at all, and yes it looks like a 12" Flying Saucer. I think I would take the hanging ladder out. I had one of those and decided it was dangerous. Rat sized sputniks are good if you hang them next to the shelf.

So - I also think more substrate would make a difference. Sort of fill the base. It doesn't have to work out more expensive as when it's deep you can just spot clean mainly, especially if she uses a litter tray. The bottom half tends to stay dry and you can do big cage cleans much less often.

Fitch is very popular on here - it's sold in bulk (paper substrate similar to Carefresh but less dusty) and that works out cheap, plus Hams seem to really like it.

So I think I would:

Take out the hanging ladder
Add a lot more substrate - fill the base - which might then mean moving the shelf up a bit higher and less open space above it.
Add a rat sputnik to hang next to the shelf and put some paper bedding in it. Our hamster used to love dozing in his sputnik but only if it had bedding in it.

That should make it feel less open from above in the Sputnik area.

It could be an idea to add a couple of small extra shelves as well. Corners can feel a bit open and they like to sit under something.

I had a couple of these lava ledges that just screw in. I used to put one in a corner over the shelf and our Hamster liked to sit under it.

I think though, if you had the Trixie wheel as well - maybe back left corner, and left the flying saucer where it is, that would also block off some of the open space and she may love having a wheel as well as a flying saucer.

Lava ledge

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kaytee-Was-Superpet-Lava-Ledge/dp/B00176F466/ref=sr_1_1?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1489003809&sr=1-1&keywords=lava+ledge

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Nobby-Sputnik-Extra-Large-29-26/dp/B0037XQ8X0/ref=sr_1_1?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1489003853&sr=1-1&keywords=rat+sputnik

I found our hammy wasn't interesting in toys basically - unless they had food stuck to them or unless they were round and he could curl up in them. Like the sputnik or like a round coconut hut I had.

The only thing is if you still end up moving her it's a bit of a waste spending money on a sputnik and lava ledge that you couldn't use in a tank style cage (well you could use the Sputnik upside down on the floor then I guess).

More substrate and a wheel might do it so maybe try that first :-)

I noticed you said you adopted her. How old is she?

[Trioxin]

Noted! She's due playtime soon so while she's out I'll do some messing around. I'm due a trip to the pet store on Saturday and I'm sure I've seen some lava ledges and sputnik's so I can probably pick something up then.

I was told she's roughly five or six months I believe~

[Trioxin]

Someone took a very long time to wake up properly today haha.

She's just had some time out in her 'playpen' which is just, half sand, half shavings and a few of her toys so she can be somewhere new, and she's just in her ball for a short while, just while I finish up.

http://i67.tinypic.com/2uj6p87.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/20s7sdv.jpg

Added more to the bottom of the cage and I noticed in her pen she like to burrow into the cottage house so I've made it like a hobbit hole. Removed the hanging toys, moved the ledge up and added some toilet rolls, figured she can shred herself more bedding lol.

All I can do for today but we'll see how she is and see if the covering method works again tonight once she's back in.

[cypher]

That definitely looks better for her, I'm sure she'll enjoy all the extra substrate!

[Pebbles82]

That back left corner looks just the place for a wheel :-) Looks much better. She might be a bit peeved at changes happening but I'm sure she'll adjust soon. I usually tear the toilet paper into strips and put a big mound of it in somewhere in the cage. They like pouching the strips and taking them to the nest. But if she likes pulling it off the actual toilet roll that sounds good too :-) Or maybe do a bit of both? I tear each sheet lengthways into about 5 or 6 strips, and do that with maybe 6 or 8 sheets, then put the mound somewhere in the cage and watch it gradually go down.

If you've got a shoebox, some kind of hide under the shelf might go down well as well. You can make a shoebox into a kind of house. Nice that she is burrowing down.

I think I would still take the runged ladder out - it does look quite safe where it is but they have problems walking on them and it can't be very nice falling through the gaps each time lol. Or instead of removing it, some people stick a piece of wood on the back so it's a solid ladder with rungs. Bendy bridges are always good.

[Trioxin]

Hi everyone! Sorry for not replying sooner - been a weird couple of weeks.

Things with Clover have been up and down. Had a couple of days where she was obsessively chewing but I do think it was partly my fault it actually continued, I was trying to do some work and she was chewing so much I kept going to the cage and either blowing on her gently to make her double take or pleading with her to stop, haha. I am pretty certain it's attention seeking now, if I turn off the light and get into bed and stay quiet she instantly gives up, whereas if I'm awake and at the computer she's a little more stubborn. Slowly teaching her she won't get her own way if she chews, lol.

But we've also had a quiet few nights - almost weirdly so the past couple of days to the point I did worry a little about her. So tonight I removed the top part of her cage and got her out in her play pen for a short while and had a roll around in her correctly sized ball and she seemed fine, had a check of her bedding and had a quick check over her just incase she may be unwell but nope! Just a lazy day I guess, lol.

Anyway, here's her set up now - may see some cameo's from Clo, didn't check the photos.

http://i66.tinypic.com/qqnzx4.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/34qtpy0.jpg

Old gift box has now become a makeshift home and hidey hole. She still seems weirdly adamant on just sleeping in the corners, though, she refuses to take cover half the time to sleep. I've tried two different hamster homes, stuffing the wooden bridge with bedding and this is my next attempt to give her a more secure place to sleep. I'm hoping she'll learn to use it because I think the odd quiet we had these past few days was her getting spooked while she was trying to sleep cause no matter how far she burrowed you could still see her. Picked up a new wheel for her while I was getting some more whimzee's and a lifetime supply of substrate for her, and she seems to like them both. Loud as all hell but I'd come to terms the day I got her with having to wear ear plugs, lol.

All in all she seems a little bit more settled and she just seems to think if she chews I'll let her out or fuss her, I think with a bit more time she'll have learnt.