When to Split?

[indie]

I am a proud caretaker of two Russian Winter White Dwarf hamsters. They are from the same litter, they came to me together and have shared their cage (60cm long, 30 cm wide and 45 cm high, with 3 floors, 2 houses and 2 wheels) ever since. However, lately they've been bickering, like two really loud and angry squeaky toys/crickets. During the day they mostly don't sleep together and everything's quiet. The nights are what worries me. When I approach the cage they usually stop the fight, but lately they've started to ignore me, unless I separate them with a hand. One is usually on his back and the other one has his paws on the first one's belly. There have been no injuries yet - only, maybe, bruised egoes. They've woke me up a couple of times the other night. But, when the "storm" is over, they fall asleep together in one of their wheels and everything seems fine, until they wake up and one decides to start running in the wheel, while the other one is still sleeping. As with Mango and Chutney, M is more open towards me than K (who's very cautious and often hides from me), and I think K is the one starting these fights, but I'm not completely sure. The question is: How much bickering is too much bickering? Should I separate them? I got them together, because I had a Russian Dwarf before who was alone in the cage and I really wanted to have two, so they keep each other company...

[souffle]

This is a really common dilemma indie. I would say that more people end up separating WW than managing to keep them together. The rule of thumb is usually thought to be separate when blood is drawn but on reflection, with ours who had to be separated we wish we had done it before that happened. Ours behaved just like yours but the smaller was always chasing the larger one. One morning we found one had been badly bitten all over his rump. The fur never grew in properly again. After separation they were much happier and became much tamer and more people friendly. I don't think they miss each other at all and the relief to us about not worrying whether they will be fighting was immense. Yes it is nice to see them happy together but when you really feel they are not happy, one is bullying the other so it stays in the house all the time and is unsure about handling and coming out, when it loses condition and the sparkle of running on a wheel and foraging that is the time to separate in my opinion. They settle quite happily alone. No two pairs are alike and some will stay together and some will not. Only you can decide as you are with them. You always get tussles as they establish a hierarchy but when you get the screaming or relentless chasing you need to separate them. Hope this helps.

[jayne]

Souff has explained pretty much what i would suggest, and a lot more :oops:
Just keep an eye on them everyday, check them over for any wounds etc and notice any changes in behaviour.
If you have a spare cage aside that would be an advantage also so the separation can be done asap without having to go out and get one.

Please keep us updated on them both though

[indie]

wow. thank you both. :) :) your posts helped a LOT. I have a cage on the side, but it's tiny and really not a place for a WW to live in full time, so I'll have to buy another one. I was just about to do so last weekend, but the thought of splitting them made me really sad, so I gave it up and decided to give them a week and write on this board. One more thing that made me take two hammies instead of one was a book I bought (J. Lissenberg: Dwarf Hamsters) which said that they're very sociable, and should be kept at least two together, interestingly it says nothing about fights or how to resolve them...

Yes it is nice to see them happy together but when you really feel they are not happy, one is bullying the other so it stays in the house all the time and is unsure about handling and coming out,...

Souffle, this is so true about the two of them - you've hit just the spot... Thank you again, I'll write when I decide on what to do.

[souffle]

I think the books say that dwarfs are sociable and yes they are in the wild and in large colonies however in these situations things are different. The have large areas and burrows with numerous chambers. They CAN get away from ones they dont get on with and they have lots of things to do to ensure survival like nest building, foraging, breeding and raising young etc. Two males would be unlikely to just live together. There would always be females, youngsters, old and young. It is not a natural situation when you think about it, two males in a confined area with food on tap and nothing else to think about really. Well that's my thoughts anyway. I think they will be happier alone not having to defend their territory and doing what they want without having to watch their backs or be defensive. Don't use a food bowl but scatter food all over, always handle both together and see how it goes but I suspect they are telling you they don't really want to be together now. Try not to keep them together because you like seeing them together but put yourself in the hammies position and imagine if it is right and if you think they can resolve their differences. Good luck.

[indie]

I've split them yesterday - the screaming became almost constant and I don't think there was anything else I could have done. I think they're ok, but I'll see how it goes. They don't seem sad. Maybe M's a bit annoyed with me, because he's in a smaller cage now, but that'll change, maybe even tomorrow. The house is suddenly really quiet - it might take some getting used to... Thank you for everything - you were a lot of help!! :) :)

[souffle]

I think you have made the right decision. You have tried and they are obviously not happy together. It will take maybe a couple of weeks for them to settle alone but don't worry if they sulk a bit..ours did. You will feel much more relaxed now and they will become more affectionate. Let us know how it goes.

[indie]

It's been 10 days since I've moved M to a new cage - it was a small cage and I think he wasn't very happy there (bar chewing tipped me off), but he got a new, larger one a couple of days later and I don't think I've ever seen such happiness in a hamster :) : He was everywhere, almost simultaneously. :D I think he loves it.
K was his usual (withdrawn) self for the first couple of days, but then he started opening up: He's been sleeping in places where I can see him and even reach him, which he never used to do. He doesn't mind my hands in the cage as much as he used to. He's far more active and inquisitive. Also, he's done some redecorating - he moved the food bowl to where it suits him better. :D
To sum up - I have two really happy hammies now and it's wonderful. :D 8)

[souffle]

Great news Indie. The hamsters response speaks for itself doesn't it. They are quite content alone and you are obviously much more relaxed and happy with them now. Long may it continue and I am sure they will soon be real mummies boys when it comes to being handled. Ours just splat on us now and enjoy their cuddles :D

[babyboos]

sounds like you definitely made the right decision
I think we really need to reconsider literature and post caveats in all documentation that dwarf hamsters in captivitiy can be social with their own kind BUT, and a big BUT, they more often than not end up living apart
you have two very lucky hamsters to have such a good conciencious mummy

[indie]

I think we really need to reconsider literature and post caveats in all documentation that dwarf hamsters in captivitiy can be social with their own kind BUT, and a big BUT, they more often than not end up living apart...

I think that's an excellent idea. Especially in guides for people who are getting a hamster for the first time.

you have two very lucky hamsters to have such a good conciencious mummy

:) thank you!!

[T-Bone]

I think P@H and the likes need to advertise dwarf hamsters as solitary animals - it might not be 100% true but it would prevent alot of unwanted litters and seperations (creating more rescues and requiring more expense)

On a similar note, A local pet shop said they gave up with dwarf hamsters due to the constant fighting and now they only do syrians...