Hybrids....how did this ever even happen?

[SyrianMomma7]

I've been seeing so much about hybrids lately, and I just have to know, how would one even go about mating two different species of hamsters?
What would possess someone to say 'Hey I bet a syrian and a WW would make a good combination!'
How did this ever begin?
Please educate me!

[jesselle]

I think it's because the agoutis of each species look similar to the uneducated eye, I have no idea, but I don't think the hybridisation happened on purpose, just through lack of knowledge.

[SinNyx]

Syrians and WWs can't mate....but I guess, the similarities between the genetics of the dwarf species allows them to reproduce with each other...plus, they do look similar as stated so if you look at rodent farms, they won't bother spend money on a single species if they can get different species and mix them...they won't be bothered about keeping track of breeds, so it happens.
It probably isn't on purpose even though!!!...some do desire the hybrid colourations and can get the money from it. That's where it stems from.

[squishyhammy]

as SinNyx said! the only 2 species that can interbreed are ther russian campbells and winter whites :)

[SyrianMomma7]

Still, I saw a user posting on here about hybrids and if they were 'a good idea' and it scared me.
I don't want it to happen!
I've seen some beautiful hybrids, but I would never adopt or buy one for fear of its life span.
My sister had an absolutely beautiful hybrid, and it only lived 3 months due to health issues.
that is just long enough for me to fall in love and have my heart ripped out! :'(

[Clairealex]

It's such a sad thing really. Most likely lack of knowledge has resulted in this and as you say they come with health problems and a shorter lifespan usually.

I love my little hybrid to bits, he's such a wonderful little man and I wouldn't change him but I am aware that he has potentially more health issue risks than a pure breed. I wouldn't buy a hybrid, as that does encourage the breeding, but I would never not adopt one that needed a home if I was able to. I know exactly what you mean about being heartbroken, but the way I see it is, it's happened, the hybrid exists, if I can give it a loving home for as little or as long as it has left then I'll do it.

Unfortunately most Russian dwarfs (minus roborovskis) are hybrids. It seems like it's here to stay and makes the breeding mills and chain stores easy money at the expense of the ham and owner :(

[SyrianMomma7]

Clairealex, that breaks my heart. I wish that these little creatures lived longer, and that people would be more educated before taking the plunge into such a risky activity.
x SM7

[Ilovehamsters]

Yup, it's upsetting-but every hamster needs a home! My little Wilbur is a Hybrid, and I rescued him, he's such a character! :)

[Nancy's Hamsters]

I have no documented proof of this, but was told the reason the mills crossed the WW with the RC was because they wanted a dwarf sized Hamster with the laid back temperament of the WW(they do seem less nasty with biting then my Hybrid Russian Campbell dwarfs), but wanted the many other colors that only the RC has. In cross breeding the two species they got the mellow temperament they wanted with the Mottled, and Argente, Blue and Opal colors and patterns of the RC.

They took no notice of the sudden birthing deaths from tiny skulled WW trying to push out the head of a RC dwarf. They could care less about the increase in Neurological issues due to a Campbell brain crammed into a narrower WW Skull(poor things have a cronic Headache and they wonder why the Hamster is so aggressive). They didn't worry about the sudden and rapid increase in Diabetes in Dwarfs nor about the increase of Glaucoma either.

All they thought about was this: $$$$$$$. Uneducated buyers look for Pretty, splashy, and different when buying a Hamster and the mills pump out just that even this very day.

[Munchalot]

I think it was just to create more colours within the dwarf hamster. :/ If you showed most people a pure Winter White next to a Campbells, and told them that they only come in grey or white with black eyes, people would think they are boring, whereas the Campbells has a wide range of colour and pattern. However, they probably didn't want to just not breed WW, because they have such a lovely temperament.
Plus rodent mills are lazy, all they want is to produce as many hamsters as possible, and quickly, so its probably a case of - it they can breed, breed them.

Needless to say, there are a lot of animal breeds out there that are being destroyed by the pet industry. It's all about profit, and producing what it most likely to sell (aka, something pretty).

[JinjaMakes]

How common are the problems with hybrids?
I might be being stupid but if they're hybrids bred from hybrids that came from hybrids would you not hope that the bad genes have been wheedled out by now?
I have to admit I've never thought about it before... I have a Syrian and probably will only have Syrians, but hybrids/pet shop hamsters surely aren't that risky to own? (By risky I mean more health problems/shorter lives)

I don't think I've seen many people here who have hybrids saying that they have passed on after a short time... Unless people here don't buy pet shop hybrids?

I'm confused now. Ha. Sorry for rambley questions.

[SyrianMomma7]

The hybrids you see in pet stores are what I like to call, the survivors.
If say there were 10 hybrids in a hybrid litter, maybe 4 would make it to adulthood.
You see, the ones with the most serious problems usually die before ever making it to the pet shop, so the hamsters you view have already survived the main 'death period' I guess you could say.
Just like with syrian hamsters having litters and them experiencing liver failure, most die within the first 3 weeks. I've seen a little of 11 dwiddle to one or two by the 3 week time period, and those one or two can grow up and lead happy lives.
There are always exceptions to things like that.
Some hybrids live completely normal lives, and never experience any problems, but a majority never make it to adult hood.
Did that help at all?
x SM7

[racinghamster]

I`m one of those people who would rather species stayed specific to their own breed, but maybe because winter white and Campbells have the ability to pro-create, humans have just manipulated what would never happen in the wild, which has resulted in a `hybrid` species? Many would argue by mixing genes you might get a healthier animal (as in the pedigree/mongrel dog scenario where pedigree dogs tend to suffer more health problems).

If we (humans) didn`t crave lovely coat colours perhaps these mating would never have happened, but demand fuels this and I`m a BIG advocate of keeping hamsters natural. Winter whites and Chinese hamsters agouti/wild colouring and if a mutation happens to appear in a litter, then that`s nature. I don`t like the breeding or manipulating of animals for human pleasure. Give me a nippy little hybrid and I will treat him or her just the same, but I don`t suppose there is any going back to basics now with the huge explosion of hybrid hamsters now available and still being bred. x

[amie]

Well said, Nancy’s Hamsters. Sums up the situation. It is heartbreaking what a minority have done to dwarf hamsters.
I know that Munchalot was making a valid point in that Campbells come in more colours than Winter Whites but just to clarify the Winter White situation in the UK and I’m talking pure bred Winter Whites.
In the NHC handbook these are listed as naturally occurring mutations of Winter Whites, that is not resulting from hybridisation:
Pearl (pattern)
Sapphire (colour)
Marbled (pattern)

Agouti or Normal is the wild colour and not a mutation and is therefore also recognised by the NHC as not arising from hybridisation.

So, the choice is a bit more than “grey or white.” I can think of 6.
You can get normal (agouti), sapphire, pearl, sapphire pearl, normal marbled and sapphire marbled.
I accept some of the 6 above may look very similar, eg pearl and sapphire pearl and normal marbled and sapphire marbled but there are nevertheless still 6 distinct ‘variations’ for Winter Whites.

[Username]

The hybrids you see in pet stores are what I like to call, the survivors.
If say there were 10 hybrids in a hybrid litter, maybe 4 would make it to adulthood.
You see, the ones with the most serious problems usually die before ever making it to the pet shop, so the hamsters you view have already survived the main 'death period' I guess you could say.
Just like with syrian hamsters having litters and them experiencing liver failure, most die within the first 3 weeks. I've seen a little of 11 dwiddle to one or two by the 3 week time period, and those one or two can grow up and lead happy lives.
There are always exceptions to things like that.
Some hybrids live completely normal lives, and never experience any problems, but a majority never make it to adult hood.
Did that help at all?
x SM7 that is so sad :(

[Bailey]

The hybrids you see in pet stores are what I like to call, the survivors.
If say there were 10 hybrids in a hybrid litter, maybe 4 would make it to adulthood.
You see, the ones with the most serious problems usually die before ever making it to the pet shop, so the hamsters you view have already survived the main 'death period' I guess you could say.

x SM7

This simply is not true. It's one thing to be against hybridization, but making up stats like this is unnecessary. Hybrids have been around for so many generations now that many are just as healthy as pure bred WW's and Campbell's.

[Munchalot]

Well said, Nancy’s Hamsters. Sums up the situation. It is heartbreaking what a minority have done to dwarf hamsters.
I know that Munchalot was making a valid point in that Campbells come in more colours than Winter Whites but just to clarify the Winter White situation in the UK and I’m talking pure bred Winter Whites.
In the NHC handbook these are listed as naturally occurring mutations of Winter Whites, that is not resulting from hybridisation:
Pearl (pattern)
Sapphire (colour)
Marbled (pattern)

Agouti or Normal is the wild colour and not a mutation and is therefore also recognised by the NHC as not arising from hybridisation.

So, the choice is a bit more than “grey or white.” I can think of 6.
You can get normal (agouti), sapphire, pearl, sapphire pearl, normal marbled and sapphire marbled.
I accept some of the 6 above may look very similar, eg pearl and sapphire pearl and normal marbled and sapphire marbled but there are nevertheless still 6 distinct ‘variations’ for Winter Whites.

I wasn't saying that there were only two colours, I know how many there are. ;)
I only meant that all the colours are pretty similar, and there are only 6. To a random member of public buying a hamster, agouti and sapphire are just two different kinds of grey, and oh look a white one (pearl). You're not really going to find a marbled in a pet shop because it is a relatively new mutation. So really, there's only 4 available to shops.
Whereas a Campbells has a wide range of colours from blue to black to argente, they come in mottled patterns, satin coats, and they can have red eyes as well as black. Much more interesting to the guy who runs the rodent mill.

[Kissa]

I might be being stupid but if they're hybrids bred from hybrids that came from hybrids would you not hope that the bad genes have been wheedled out by now?

In theory, if you bred a line of hybrids, concentration on health, eventually you could wheedle out some of the health problems -- diabetes being the one that springs immediately to mind. However, some of the issues with hybrids are caused by the mixing of the genes, like the neurological issues they can be prone to can be a result of the brain size of one species squashed into the smaller skull size of the other. (Forgive me, I can't remember which out of WWs and Campbells has the larger head!) These kinds of problems I think would be nigh on impossible to breed out.

As for why hybrids came into existence in the first place -- it was initially thought that WWs and Campbells were the same species, or subspecies of each other, and more closely related than we now know. Some people obviously still don't know, or don't care, that they are actually different species, and about all the problems that they can be prone to.

There's a series of articles on the issue on the (now defunct) BHA website, which I found an interesting read :)

When is a Campbell not a Campbell? (http://www.britishhamsterassociation.org.uk/get_article.php?fname=journal/Campbells_M_Cham.html)
Hamster Hybrids (http://www.britishhamsterassociation.org.uk/get_article.php?fname=journal/hybrids.htm)
Hamster Hybrids II (http://www.britishhamsterassociation.org.uk/get_article.php?fname=journal/hybrids_letter.html)