Community improvements? Membership? A discussion

[Gust0o]

I was opening this as a "debate", as I've become conscious - as I'm sure others have - of increasing tensions on the forum.

These tensions, as have arisen, have been very reminiscent of problems on our fellow forums - and something we had hoped to avoid with HC, which has normally embodied a spirit of friendship and openness.

This spirit has been relatively easy to maintain, thanks to the smaller user-base of HC - behaviour has been that much easier to normalise - aided by a trend towards age and experience on the behalf of our more regular posters.

However, we have seen strong recent growth, which has changed the demographic somewhat for the younger and inexperienced - and, whilst this is the long-term lifeblood of the hobby and fancy, it has caused some concerns amongst members.

With that in mind, I was hoping to start the debate as to whether there was anything we might do to moderate those concerns - to ensure the user-base of HC is manageable, within the current community constraints; and that it retains the spirit which has made it the home of choice to so many, especially within the UK fancy.

I had wondered if we might be able to offer more screening of the registration process; or perhaps an invite system, where older users would be able to invite newer ones - but with the proviso that their accounts are linked, and the inviting user would be responsible for the behaviour of the invitee (buddy system)?

For my part, I've not been terribly thrilled with the nature of some of the situations we've been witness to - and would very much like to see us have an open debate as to how we might tackle some of these issues, and ensure HC is there for more to enjoy in the future.

[Mollz Mum]

Hi Gusto

I totally agree with all that you have said - the forum has had a very uneasy and uncomfortable atmosphere of late and I for one am viewing it less and less, which is such a shame.

I think that the invitation and buddy system would be a great way to go, but I guess any changes like this are not for us to decide - the forum is owned by Snuggleham and such major changes would be up to her.

We all love the forum and support it fully. I would hope that she will sypathise with concerns expressed by the members.

Well done for voicing our concerns and making such a brave move. I know these thoughts have been on a lot of our minds lately, but it can't have been easy to have bitten the bullet and posted this suggestion.

I think an honest and sensible debate about is a great idea.

[internet_nobody]

As I have said to Gus over PM, even in the short time i've been here i've noticed things change...As a moderator on "the other" forum, i've tried to explain to some people the frustrations in trying to make a forum attractive to everyone, and the difficulty in keeping members once you start to deal with the young and inexperienced (in many situations read "people who will do what they want to do regardless of any advice offered and generally really annoy your established members") Gus mentioned, it would be a shame if HC lost members too because of this. I think the only way to do it is over-moderating/censorship, which distrupts the community feel in another way :(

[Gust0o]

Well done for voicing our concerns and making such a brave move. I know these thoughts have been on a lot of our minds lately, but it can't have been easy to have bitten the bullet and posted this suggestion.

Why, thank you - I'm very much of the opinion that concerns shouldn't be hidden, but should be voiced and explored, which is what I'm hoping we'll have chance to do here.

I would dearly like input from Snuggleham - not only is she the owner of the site, but she posted a very thought-provoking comment in Hamster Chat recently, regarding her experiences on similar forums. The question being, if we were edging towards the same situation, with the power in her hands what would she do?

Or does she even need to do anything? Are we being over-sensitive? I'm hoping we'll be able to explore that, as well.

This isn't a criticism - it's an acknowledgement; a discussion; and it's intended to improve HC, which I would feel Snuggleham would appreciate.

For my part, I recognise that new users are an absolute requirement - they're needed to maintain the forum, in the long-term. The challenge for me is to how to introduce new people, without exposing current users to undue stress - we'd like to retain our experienced base.

But this isn't simply new users - it's behavioural standards; it's merely that we've noticed the issue more in connection with certain new users.

In analogy, if this were a business we'd consider job design - to ensure we recruited people whose behaviours and values closely matched that of the organisation, to ensure we could smoothly absorb those staff; as a community, can we do likewise? Can we ensure "job-design" through screening, as a suggestion; or can we normalise behaviour through other means, and ensure the users we have are aware of requirements of HC (psychological contract, users charter, etc)?

These are all suggestions, which might have some valid application to HC - I'm just happy we're talking :)

[Matty Day]

Id have concerns about a buddy system for a variety of reasons

The main reason as it could be open to abuse and create one set of rules for some and one for others as the invitee could potentially censor the inviter as they’d threaten to break the rules if they didn’t get there way creating a more draconian forum blaming the innocent for the actions of others

Further more this could create a form of elitism as it would prevent new blood so to speak from joining as they don’t know a forum member. Lessening the amount of potential new members to those who are linked to the uk hamster showing and breeding circle. And what about overseas members from the us and the rest of the world? This create a two tier system. Depending on were ever they live and also a vicious circle as many find out about shows through the forum

However a better idea would be to simplify the forum rules and put them into a basic code like for the ten commandments.

And how a bout a tougher rule enforcement like a three strikes and out system?

And how about a form of democracy so members vote on the rules? Instead of the form of enlightened absolutism we have now as the rules are more likely to work if member have a say in there creation

However I realise These are my ideas to improve hc I understand the have practicality issues so might not be possible. And might be undesirable for some for some

[nooboo]

to some extent you have to take the bad with the good...

are you actually saying you would want to screen out those with difficulties and so stop them from the opportunity to learn simply to make life easier for others?

if the screening process is too difficult people wont bother, i hate to pick on people but carrington i asked to join here, she very nearly didnt bother due to the wait for the code business....so we put off experienced well balanced people already!as said by limiting to those who are asked we loose a lot of potential members, people find these forums and wander onto them post a few messages, hey its how i started off in the hamster world, with a few mistakes true, but i have lived learnt, and had excellent guidance from those the forums and then showing put me in regular contact with.



there will always be conflicts, even with something like hamster care, we are all individuals with different views on things, and yes some people express themselves in a less' accepted' form than others, but how can they learn without this? how can ideas be put forward? some on here like using water bowls for hamsters, personally i feel they are dangerous, but i wouldnt say to someone who uses them they are dangerous and they are harming their animal, as i would think that i they had had issues they wouldnt have kept using them, so though i woulrdnt want to use them...i wonder if i am more harsh on them than i should be.

any one can say things in a way which upsets people (that last bit may have already upset someone, in which case i am really sorry) no one usually means to, but when people feel strongly strong emotions come out.

it would also mean the forum would be against those with disabilities, more mental ones but just as valid. someone very close to me has aspergers, and so can come across badly on things, i would hate to think due to this you would deny him the right to post here?

[Bunsey]

i started out on a hamster forum, too. It was an American one, so i actually learned a lot by just reading posts that were made to kids using pine shavings, the wrong wheels and CT cages. Everything i knew about hamsters before i came to the club was learnt from that forum. I went on there as a naive new owner with her "chinese" hamsters on lemon scented sawdust! If i'd have been stopped from going on there, i'd still be that person.

[workmad3]

All of these ideas sound nice, but there is (I think) one key issue here... this is an internet forum. It is designed to be easy to post on, easy to join and other things for ease. If you start imposing or creating complicated rules about how people can join you will either have:

The rules being ignored because they are too difficult. There could also be the occasional crackdown which would have members complaining about them periodically and abandoning the forum[/*:m:1cq2hkq4]
A lack of new blood as the rules are too prohibitive to allow new members to join[/*:m:1cq2hkq4]

As for a 'democratic' rules selection, that would be VERY open to abuse due to the internet being based around virtual identities rather than physical identities. It would be very easy to sign up with several accounts here (or dozens, if I felt like it :)) each using a different email address (very easy to do, even with multiple different domains so they don't look like they are all from the same person) and then use extra votes through multiple accounts to get particular rules passed by a 'democracy'.

To put it bluntly, just about every forum on the internet is either on the brink of falling into an elitist community that hazes outsiders and makes them unwelcome, or is already there. If you are already in the group, you will think the atmosphere is great. If you are an outsider, you will think either (if a) that there is a certain unfriendliness/distance because you are new (which is true... this is just basic human behaviour. If you don't know someone, you won't talk to them as much until you do) or they will be quite nastily hazed until they go away or are accepted in the case of the second. Staying on the brink of elitist communities is a very difficult thing to do, and all the forums I've ever seen manage it are 'ruled' by a fairly relaxed set of rules imposed by a form of enlightened despotism and were also lucky enough to have gotten a main group of members that were friendly and welcoming. A couple of bad people getting into the main group of posters will ruin it, and rules that are too strict will drive away people that feel put-upon just because they want to chat with their friends on a forum and can't because their post contained the word 'assessment' which has a swear word in it.

The idea of psychological profiles of members is again an idea that wouldn't work in an online environment. Most people that have spent time online will have taken several 'psychological profiles' and will be able to play them so well that they could come out as either a saint or a serial killer depending on what they felt like being that day. It is another case of virtual identities as well, in that if someone doesn't get accepted because of it with one login, they just create another and answer things differently. This is the internet, most people don't feel that the quizzes etc. on here are something to be taken seriously and therefore have no qualms about lying or exaggerating things on them to get their own way.

Edit:
I feel I should also point out that with things like psychological profiles, you will tend to scare away honest members as well. They will see the information you are asking, or the length of the form and decide it's not worth it. That would mean that the people you would then attract would mainly be less attractive people who have joined up to scam the form and then have a bit of fun posting stupid comments and threads.


Oh, and a three-strikes and out system is fairly well workable from my experience :) The only problem is getting rid of people after 3 strikes. The main forum I frequent is filled with computer programmers, and run by a really good web programmer who has managed to outfox pretty much every spam bot out there and keeps on top of it... when he tried to ban a problem member it took a VERY long time and eventually ended up with a cease-fire where the member agreed to tone down posts and only post as a guest, and stop defacing threads and posts... and that was with an argument over the size of an avatar :?

[Mollz Mum]

are you actually saying you would want to screen out those with difficulties and so stop them from the opportunity to learn simply to make life easier for others?

I don't think that's what's being said at all. It's fine if they do actually want to learn and do actually listen to and accept the advice that is being given.

The problem of late is that there have been some very aggressive posts that have got out of hand.

I personnally joined the forum as a complete novice, hoping to talk to like minded people and be able to ask the more experienced owners and breeders for advice. But when these more experienced people are constantly contradicted, then they will end up leaving and then all we will have on are the younger, more inexperienced members who very often give out incorrect and ill judged advice - which in my mind is extremely dangerous.

We all know and accept that forums need new members to "stay alive" and keep going and I believe that we are very good at welcoming them all with open arms and doing our best to make them part of the forum, but this also has to be balanced against how destructive some of these new members are being to the good nature of the forum. I think that what we need is an agreed "acceptable behaviour" policy, that every member has to sign up to. And if they break the rules, then their membership is cancelled. I like the idea of 3 strikes and you're out - it would certainly have solved quite a few of the problems recently!

[Bunsey]

i think there could be a danger of people becoming affraid to voice their opinions if they think other people won't agree and then that defeats the hole purpose of the forum

I'd like to applaud Gus for raising this issue , and echo the comment that it has been on many of our minds but we haven't known how to approach it. Its a difficult subject but one which I think we need to attempt to tackle unless we want to risk losing some of the more experienced members.

I totally agree with Gus that it's the lack of behavioural standards from certain users that I find the most concerning, distressing even. As Gus said, its not necessarily about experience or knowledge....we all started somewhere (I've asked plenty of stupid questions in my time and I'm sure there are plenty more left in me!)...its about attitude....and respect for others. Sometimes we disagree, and disagree strongly, so things can get heated but there's a line that certain users have crossed that is unacceptable. Its these people that we're querying if there's a way of filtering them out. Some of them flit from forum to forum upsetting people on their way. Is there any way we can avoid this or is it just wishful thinking?

I understand where Noo is coming from, but I really don't think this is targeted at anyone with learning or any other kind of difficulties. Without wanting to say too much, last Saturday, unbeknown to me at the time, I was the target of a malicious attack by a HC member. Fortunately, the people who "witnessed" this attack know me well enough to know that the premise was unfounded, leapt to my defence and the mods dealt with the matter. However, it caused me a huge amount of distress. Its this sort of unacceptable behaviour that concerns me, and I hope that there is a way we can find to preferably prevent these users joining in the first place.

[Spuds Mum]

And how about a form of democracy so members vote on the rules? Instead of the form of enlightened absolutism we have now as the rules are more likely to work if member have a say in there creation


The thing with running the forum as a democracy though Matty, is that frankly, it isn't one! At the end of the day, this is Snuggleham's forum, she pays for it and maintains it. Therefore I think we all agree that the rules, and how open the forum is, is down to her.

Having said that, Snuggleham I personally feel, asks the views of the community quite regularly on what they would like to see, and encourages participation in forwarding ideas etc. I do think she does a wonderful job of ensuring that the forum is open and available to all users, and she is very committed to the idea that it should not be elitist in any way, the aim is to educate and share ideas between hamster owners whether the novice young owner of a single hamster to people who show and breed hamsters. The forum rules and guidance are clear I think and commences with Snuggleham saying

The Hamster Central community is growing rapidly. Everyday we have more users register to participate in the community. We are thrilled for this and welcome all hamster lovers! However the increasing number of users brings up some general concerns about proper conduct on the forum and website. Its required for everyone to know and follows the rules listed below. Make yourself familiar with them. Ignorance will not be an excuse. This thread will be placed under each forum topic as an announcement. There is no reason someone should “miss” it. We want to maintain a friendly atmosphere. Hamster Central is quickly becoming a popular form, known for its helpful users and encouraging environment. So lets keep it that way :)

I don't disagree with some members views that at times recently, the levels of behaviours displayed by some members have fallen short of the expectations of many other members. There is a simple answer. Rather than arguing the point or getting into frustrating discussions with people who do not really wish to discuss and issue politely, report the post to one of the moderator team and desist from posting.

The forum moderators/admin do have procedures for dealing with unacceptable behaviour, and until fairly recently have had very rarely needed to resort to these. However, the processes are there - and will be used, if we are made aware of members concerns.

Gus, as you have raised a concern, of course I will signpost snuggleham and mods to this thread. thanks for raising your concerns. :D

[nooboo]

i find the problem would be also how to know if someone will learn from things?

someone could quite loudly fight their side and protest but still could be actually taking the information on board and thinkig about it.

of cause i dont want experienced people to feel attacked or abused, dont want that myself! and yes i must say once again i have started to post less on th forums, but maybe more as i feel a bit...pointless is the nearest word i can think of.... either everything has been said or i dont want to contradict anyone for fear of causing offense...so i just stay quiet...and starting to think i should have again now.

children are that...children and can then be childish they will protest against something just because they are being stubborn but that doesnt always mean they are not paying attention nor learning, it just may not appear that way, it takes an adult...or a mature mindset to turn around and state oh i am wrong i am sorry i will change my ways, some can take things as a personal attack, and so attack back. i must say i have only seen a few posts i would call aggressive (maybe i have not been reading enough :S) and i agree we dont want to scare people off, and yes i did make it sound more cut and dry than it is with that statement, but thats the problem with forums, sweeping statements grab attention and it is all too easy to use them and upset. i know we want to help those willing to learn i guess if i had thought more i would have phrased it better to state its not always as easy as you think to know if someone is really learning or not.

someone can agree to everything you suggest and do the opposite, someone can argue the point and be rather aggressive and be fully taking the point onboard and implimenting it...just not wanting to 'back down' online....

the other idea is to have a section of forum thats invite only for more sensitive topics and a place to get moans and groans out, or maybe a rate my post system, but as workmad3 pointed out any system is open to abuse.

[Gust0o]

Whilst we're on the subject, I do feel we should celebrate how effective HC has been at accepting new members - after all, it wasn't so long ago that I was first registering; and now I know many of you on sight, and would consider you friends.

I joined; I observed; I learned; I adapted - and I'd like to think I'm a now a reasonable example of your average HC user. But I am conscious that my experience, and that of other new users - and we have some absolutely fantastic ones - runs contrary to some of our more negative examples.

But, just to stress, it's not being new which is the issue - it's the divergence from the accepted norms of HC behaviour, which could quite easily come from established members.

I'd like to find some mechanisms by which we might reinforce and embed that behaviour - which is why I suggested some examples above, including some I've used to good effect in my professional life. Because I want new people joining HC; because I want the community to prosper and grow - but in a sustainable way, which avoids some of the worst excesses of online forum management.

This is why I've avoided calls for tougher moderator activity against people who break etiquette rules - I'd like to see a community mature (in mind, and spirit, not necessarily in age - we have smart heads on young people here, after all) enough to drive this itself. It's not a democracy, no - but I don't think we see that as an excuse to disengage from the process.

Snuggleham's excerpt from the posting rules, quoted by Spud's Mum, is a fantastic summation of much of my desires - and this thread is my way of exploring how we, as the community, might look to support such.

It's good to see we're getting into some ideas - solution mode is always such a dynamic time :)

Spud, would you be so kind as to invite Snuggleham to participate, if she desires?

[Noodles]

I found this forum when I was searching for hamster products. Although I've had hamsters before, I was quite young and so while I loved them and did my best, they probably weren't treated as well as Noodles is now (much larger cage, baby food and so forth). I feel like I understand her a lot more, if you know what I mean. The fact that (I hope!) my hamster is a much happier, healthier little critter and that is thanks in large part to this forum. I have also learned about genetics, other hamster types and met some really lovely people who have really been very kind to me.

For those reasons, I personally don't think that it should be made harder to join, as people who are trying but don't know much, like me!, are exactly the people that this forum benefits the most.
Having to wait for a code is, IMO, sufficient.

While I do agree with a lot of what Gus, Mollz Mum et al(!) are saying, I would like to make a point about the criticism of the newer and younger members - as a relatively young member myself (though I did feel very old last Friday night but that's a different story!!! :lol: ) I try really hard not to offend people with anything I say. However, I use careful language a lot whereas some people on this forum are maybe not so careful and don't realise how things sound so their posts come out "wrong" so to speak.
It also wasn't a new member who was involved in the PM thing that I presume you are talking about.
There have also been posts by the "older" members that I personally found a little bit close to the line, especially when talking to a younger person, so I don't think it is purely an age/experience issue.

I feel that if people read through their posts before hitting the submit button, that really would be a good idea. Maybe the warn system like Bunsey and IN have on their forum have would "help" people to do that.

Sorry this is a really rambly post!!

Edited to say: Argh this has moved so fast, my post about age is now redundant!!!!
ELC - I decided to ignore the message you are talking about - I just thought it best to let it die; I hope you don't mind or feel I should have said something (sorry if so).

[Matty Day]

Just three things
1
I agree with work mad 3
i agree if science had its way our lives would be very boring and factual science thankfully has no right to dictate if it did wed be rule by elitist genius dictators of science (to see the effect of this id recommend that you read platos republic) thankfully we judge what is right from the study of philosophy and ethics and history

Secondly sometimes we have to agree to disagree not everyone a robot and no ones the same and this happens many time is philosophical arguments philosophy and ethics is life after all as we all have our own views on what’s good and right and wrong

3
Gusto0 if I am correct your using the psychological principle of deviation from social norms? this is dangerous in my opinion as sometimes society can be wrong extreme take the nazis for example. And also societies norms change over time

[Gust0o]

so I don't think it is purely an age/experience issue.

Absolutely - I think it's purely a behavioural issue; but it does have some assumptions wrapped around it, for ease - one of which is the notion that experienced (as opposed to older, note) members know how to behave, as per community norms.

I have noticed that assumption creeking, even with my own posting - for myself, I can't offer an excuse, as I don't believe in them; but I can offer an explanation, and that is exasperation, on my part.

Which is, on a personal note, what inspired me to kick this off. I don't want to be in that space. Believe me, I am an extremely grumpy person, and I don't think it's worth the risk! :x

It is fantastic that you take such care in your personal conduct, Noodles - that's really the HC spirit, and it's been very to see in all your posts :)

[Gust0o]

3
Gusto0 if I am correct your using the psychological principle of deviation from social norms? this is dangerous in my opinion as sometimes society can be wrong extreme take the nazis for example. And also societies norms change over time

Ha, well I was thinking more Max Weber than Adolf Hitler! :x

A norm, in it's strictest sense, is a rule that is socially enforced - which is a common theme in human behaviour; and, within that, I was thinking of mores - moral judgements defining what is right and wrong, or what is wanted or not-wanted, within a given society.

I was using this as a mechanism by which we could gauge the desired behaviour, and frame our discussion for what mechanisms might reinforce that behaviour. Nothing else.

Societies do change, of course; and norms move with them. Societies can be wrong; but I'm afraid you're wandering, a little. Was it society, or was it Hitler which drove German culture in that period? A debate for another time, I feel ;)

I threw in the suggestion of job design/people specification, which is a management concept, as a brainstorming idea - in the workplace such would be used to identify best-fit between candidates and organisational values, to ensure new employees are able to join the workplace with minimum disruption. It's not full psychological profiling, or any of the such, but a quick tool for making sure people fit the area they are joining; and wondered aloud if use could made of some of it to ensure new members match the community.

Pure food for thought, that one :)

I'm aware we're digressing a little.

[Noodles]

Gus - yeah sorry I posted as you all were posting (slow typer!!) - edited it now!!!!! :D

As I have said on another post however, I do think that sometimes people get upset about things that if said in person they would not be upset by, as you would be able to tell from tone/body language etc, that they weren't being aggressive (Obviously a number of times this is not the case but often it is)

For example - the other day I posted that a cage link was to a different cage than the converstion was about - that could be taken in soooo many ways - in an aggressive way - that the person was stupid to think it was the same; that I knew better, that I was criticising and so on BUT what I actually meant was that I can't tell the difference between all those Gabbers and Dunas etc from the pictures, and that I didn't want them to be disappointed when they got it (as I'd that very day bought a Duna thinking it was a LUx).
And as I was posting quickly, it was only when I read it back I realised it could be read in either way but if I'd been talking to them, it would have come across much better.

So I think sometimes people need to let things go as it is just a tact issue.

If it goes beyond that, then I think maybe the warn system comes into play. But as you say, I would also prefer it to only be used in quite severe cases NOT in normal disagreements.

[nooboo]

i agree re reading can help, but often issues can be missed i know i feel like i may have caused offense already on this thread twice, by simply not realizing how some will react to what i say, so i meant to say it but didnt see how it could be interpreted, or objections others would see.

Edit: just seen mattys post, and sorry matty but platos republic does condemn democracy, and goes for the rule of the philosopher king, who had to be experienced in war, not something really really want in our rulers today, and as for philosophy he meant had had access to the world of forms, which some could take as experimented on drugs. also important to note he was rather aggressive to certain types of government as they had executed his teacher for being outspoken (giving the young men a bad example)

people do have differing ethics, after studying ethics for 3 years in different parts of my degree a lot of the basic rules cross over, like Kants golden rule is very much a do unto others (act as a king in a kingdom of ends), which could be taken in a utilitarian view as for the greater good, and almost under virtue theory as to be in the balance point between two vices you would basically be taking others into account as if ur actions would repercuss back to you....

so simple things like taking others into consideration when posting on a forum this 'golden rule' comes into act, and is even highlighted in many religions. so then even if we difer on what is best to do for the hamster, we should agree on how we say it to some extent, not wanting to offend others...and not wanting to use behaviours we wouldnt appreciate being used back to us, nor would wish everyone took as a rule of behaviour.

yes as i have said some people will be more aggressive than others more because they cannot help but break that kind of rule, be it down to maturity or some other reason, but differing ethics is no excuse against being civil on a forum.

from a sociological point of view yes societies norms are in a constant state of flux, but society cannot ignore them due to this, we have to some extent live in the confines of these rules to stay within society, only way around that is to be an outcast, as a forum is a society of like thinking minds they only way to successfully have conflicting norms from the group would to be in a constant state of conflict which i am sure the group wouldnt mind if it was on hamster care etc and was stated in ways that obey the ethical rulings mentioned earlier.

edit again missed more posts since the repost...but.... i give up for the night! so just a quick re edit!

body language does have a lot to do with certain things, for a start you are aware if what you have said has caused offense usually very quickly so you can rephrase to get the point across.

i still am not sure about profiling as either these can be filled in as workmad3 said until you get accepted and may have no relevance to the person, or cause too much effort and so put others off.

it would be nice to think if anyone had a problem with what i said they would pm me about it, i wouldnt take offense from that i would rather tings were aired else i can easily go on offending without meaning to, a weakness that i know i have and i am constantly sorry for! i am shocked to know things have gone on behind the scenes i was not aware of (am totally perplexed by this pm stuff people mention :S) i would hope that people would just come to me and ask or even accuse me if they have issues, though maybe best in pm to keep the forum free from this? also i agree if you are having issue with someones post report it, not reply back else it can start to edge into flaming quite quickly and normally rational thoughtful people can say things they dont mean, just like in a verbal argument, but worse ts down in black and white to be reread and keep the emotions freshr far longer!

[workmad3]

Just three things
1
I agree with work mad 3
i agree if science had its way our lives would be very boring and factual science

I disagree with this idea (although thank you for agreeing with my original post :)). If science ruled our lives more, it would merely mean that our thoughts and reasoning would be based in reality (I'm assuming by science that you mean the physical sciences, rather than social sciences btw). However, as any student of the sciences would tell you, that doesn't mean that they would be boring and would likely make things even more crazed than they are now. You can't even argue that things like art would disappear, but I admit it would more likely be more abstract (such as with things like fractal patterns). Any mathematician or physicist will tell you that the truly great theorems are possessed of a certain beauty and elegance that seems to stem from them being 'right' (to a certain degree of rightness).

There isn't even a problem with conformity in science... there are as many conflicting theories around in physics as there are conflicting viewpoints in philosophy. This idea that science is boring and conformist is pretty much plain wrong and is probably rooted in the way that science is taught in schools currently, namely that of 'these are facts, these are the only things that should interest you, blah, blah, blah' with none of the elegance coming through, and certainly never covering the intuitive way the ideas are come to that is as great a leap of creativity as experienced by any other artist. The only difference is that there is a clear-cut way to say if the idea is correct in science, and that is to test it :)

Anyway, apologies for the digression.

[Spacemonkey]

I have to say I find HC to be one of the most sensible places amongst the various Hamster forums, some are just a non stop flaming war, which frankly wears me out and I tend to leave. I don't think we have a major problem with people getting out of hand here from what I have seen, of course there is the odd incident but that's human nature - we will never all agree on a given subject. I think what I'm trying to say - badly as always - is that it could be a LOT worse than what it is, this is a nice place with helpful and supportive members, I can think of a least a couple of other forums that can't say that, kudos to the admin and mod team for providing such a lovely place for us to share our stories and experiences, long may it continue.

[SnuggleHam]

Well *laughs* Woah.. what a surprise topic! :shock: I just got finished reading the first page, then I realized there was a second page! But I think for now I have a pretty good idea of what everyone is getting at. Now, where oh where to being! :?

I suppose I will start by saying that I am flattered many people think highly enough of hamster central to want to discuss their feelings about the forum and community and have a desire to see it prosper and remain both friendly and helpful. At the same time I'm feeling a bit disappointed this topic had to come up. Because it tells me that many people are feeling some strain and not enjoying their time here as much as they use to or would like to. So I have some mixed emotions, and even a bit overwhelmed! :shock:

As many of you know I have always tried to get the users input on what they would like to see on Hamster Central (working on those new forum templates for people to choose from btw ;) I have noticed that things have started to feel as though they are changing direction in atmosphere as the forum gets new registered users. Truthfully, I think that in reality, there have been only a few "problem users" that myself and the moderators have gotten complaints about. But the complaints are about general topics and haven't really been enough to warn over yet, or consider a ban. I prefer to work with people as much I can before I resort to banning people. I'm proud to say that we haven't banned many people. In fact I can only think of one I had to ban. :x Not bad for a forum that has over 550 users. But in light of that, the re-occurring complaints are generally similar with a few of these members and wide spread over the forums topics. Now and then they fire up and add to the "weight" of it all and perhaps give an impression the forum atmosphere is worse off then it is.

It may be that I am perhaps a bit to lenient :oops: With the forum growing so much it may be time to crack down. Three strikes and your out sounds like a good idea. But for it to work my moderators and I need to come up with very clear guidelines to follow so that each situation is treated as fairly as it can based on the criteria for a warning or perhaps a ban.

I think some of the main problems that are causing this "tension" is that people are being WAY to opinionated in the sense that they do not leave room to take other peoples opinions into account or else don't respect them (even if they say they do) It seems to me if one can express they respect another's persons opinion, then the discussion ends there, you agree to disagree. I don't see this as JUST being a problem with young people. Many young people here are quite knowledgeable. And yes I'm sure far more knowledgeable them me! Young people have a way of absorbing information like a sponge, especially when its something they are interested in. I recognize their inexperience could lead to some of these "heated discussions"

But on the other hand I feel that experienced people can be set in their ways and feel that they somehow pull rank or seniority, that somehow what they say has to go. When one knows they are an expert in an area, its not hard to get up on a high horse to to speak. Then when you get two people who are convinced they are both experts you get trouble ;) Adults can be very childish, just like many children who act more like adults. (and I know a few personally)

This mainly seems to be a matter of people..
1) Forcing their opinions on others
2) Leaving no room for other peoples opinions
3) A need to always be right and "ontop" of the discussion.
4) Unable to phrase things in a way that are constructive and in a way that approached a topic that wont offend others.
5) Unable to recognize when its time to respectfully agree to disagree.

I bet I could add more to that list if I really thought about it. :P I think that sums it up enough though.


On the matter of making a "buddy system" or personal invitation only. I don't think I could do that. What about the people who want to join hamster central and have never been on a hamster forum prior, and don't know anyone from the forum? How am I to determine if they are going to be trouble makers or not? I certainly dont' want myself or my moderators hassled with the job of doing "background" checks on everyone who wants to join.

This forum was made for everyone! I hate cliques, and this isn't a high school atmosphere, and I don't intend to make it that way. Everyone is welcome to join this club ;) I also like to be a bit more positive and offer new people the benefit of the doubt that they will be nothing more then a great addition to the community. Unfortunately in such large based net communities like this one, you are going to experience a few bad hamster turds. Thats just how it is and its impossible to stop it. But as you have seen, the bad apples surface quickly. Let them be the ones to show us their little worth, and from there we will try and handle it as best we can (perhaps with the three strikes rule)

About making the forum a democracy, no way :x I see peoples points but there is no way I'm letting that happen. I have seen what happens when you get too many hands in the cookie jar, and trust me its not pretty. I think I have done well enough making decisions for this forum. If I didn't it wouldn't be here now and going strong. I am of course open to suggestions on ways to improve the site. As it was pointed out, this is my forum, its my baby. Think of me as the boss. If you don't have a boss at work running the show and keeping things in order and tell your employees to work together and run it. Someone is always gonna slow it down, ruin the show and cause drama, try and take over. (My dear mods, I of course don't mean to call you my employees! you are my beloved helpers and I don't think this forum would be here without you! *hugs*)

Ideally if everyone were just more friendly and respectful and careful to not come off as pompous you know whats! Things would be nicer! Of course we cant expect everyone to break bad habits. With such case to case based complains it can sometime be difficult to decide when the cut off point should be fore that particular user.

The best way to deal with any "problem" users if for people to submit a PM to one of the mods with a brief summary of the problem, a link to the thread, or copy of a PM (of it was over an PM) Especially if its a reoccurring problems which shows a bad tend on the forum. Provide as many links needed for examples and information as necessary that is valid and comes with proof. Then we mods have something to work with and a record!

If you have a problem with someone, take it to PM rather then making it full blown in public. Save your PM's encase it ends up something that needs to be reported in the event you couldn't solve it like responsible adults.

[Basia]

I remember when I was a fairly new member Souffle said that she would prefer to say nothing at all if she can't say something nice and I thought that was very admirable. I have tried very hard to follow Souffle's example but I haven't always succeeded.
The forum has grown rapidly recently and although I may have preferred the forum when it was smaller, I wouldn't want to see it made more difficult for people to join. I think the monitors do a great job but there aren't very many of them too active these days so it must be hard work for them.
The reason I always liked HC so much more than other forums was because I felt it was ok to discuss things here, people might not agree with me but things were always discussed in a friendly way. Recently there has been what I consider to be some childish behaviour, which has nothing to do with the age of people but more to do with their lack of respect for differing opinions. I don't feel so comfortable expressing my opinions any more and most of my posts now are admiring photos, etc.
I think it is a shame, I really don't know what the answer is, maybe if everyone had a little patience with other people, read their posts through and really thought about how it is going to sound to the people reading it before they press the submit button it would get back to where it was. I hope so.

[SnuggleHam]

The reason I always liked HC so much more than other forums was because I felt it was ok to discuss things here, people might not agree with me but things were always discussed in a friendly way. Recently there has been what I consider to be some childish behaviour, which has nothing to do with the age of people but more to do with their lack of respect for differing opinions. I don't feel so comfortable expressing my opinions any more and most of my posts now are admiring photos, etc.


I see what your saying and how you might feel that way, and I am very sad to hear it and I hope that I can find out a way to remedy the problem with the help of my mods and my hubby Smoo. And I agree, its lack of respect, lack of openness and a friendly approach. I need to maybe give everyone a good kick in the behind and try and press the fact that this forum, SHOULD BE TREATED LIKE A HUGE FAMILY! ;) before anyone posts anything, I would encourage every to stop and think, "is the post Im about to submit friendly? is it possible my tone will scare people into thinking they will be poorly judged, stop them from wanting to ask questions in the future? How can I word this to be friendly and constructive?"

[Bunsey]

when i first joined and hamster forum was still running, i would post things on here that i wouldn't on there with all the scary experts who might laugh at me :lol:

[SnuggleHam]

when i first joined and hamster forum was still running, i would post things on here that i wouldn't on there with all the scary experts who might laugh at me :lol:

Then perhaps it would be a good idea for you and anyone who feels similar to send me a PM with the name or names of people who make you feel as though you can no longer post without fear of being judged badly? and also explain why it is you feel that way. I'm sure common names will surface, and it would allows me to take the first step and making the forum a place people feel comfortable again. :) I stress you send in PM, no finger pointing in public please!

[Bunsey]

oh, i think you mis-understood. maybe i explained badly. I meant that when hamster forum was running, i felt a bit nervous of posting on that forum with "silly" questions because there was so many experts on there. I came on here instead because there were other hamster beginners and i felt more comfortable :D
There's no-one who made me feel that way about the other forum, only myself!

[SnuggleHam]

oh, i think you mis-understood. maybe i explained badly. I meant that when hamster forum was running, i felt a bit nervous of posting on that forum with "silly" questions because there was so many experts on there. I came on here instead because there were other hamster beginners and i felt more comfortable :D
There's no-one who made me feel that way about the other forum, only myself!

Oh, well in that case thats good! :lol: Glad HC inst that bad :shock:

But encase anyone does feel that way, please send an IM my way!

[ad36]

As a novice hamster owner but one who watches this forum daily, I would just like to make my comment on this subject.

Having done my initial search on-line many months ago and watched many forums for sometime, HAMSTER CENTRAL is the only forum that I now sumbit too.

I found it to be the most welcoming.
I knew most members spoke from excellent experience and a wealth of knowledge, rather than opinion.
I have asked some basic questions in the past but have never felt 'mocked' in doing so.
I have learnt a huge amount about all aspects of hamster care and ownership.
I have had fun :) reading posts, watching the development of litters etc and hearing about other members hamsters.


I have been surprised over the growth of this forum over the past few months and the many new members that are joining.

NOW I would like to congratulate SNUGGLEHAM in her post made under this topic 10/06 11:28pm, in my opinion this was a sensible and suitable approach to a problem that members have highlighted.
We need to trust our Administrator and Moderators to deal with troublesome posts. By following the guidelines for any postings we make,is a simple enough idea and those that cant, can be dealt with appropriately. To be frank if you dont like the rules and set-up on this site, there are plenty others out there that may suit you better or maybe start one following rules that you may find more preferable :wink:

From a totally selfish point of view,I have to say that I am concerned that if this is not allowed to happen, the forum will lose 'sensible' participants and who will I turn too then for advice :cry:

This forum has run successfully and strongly up until now, so come on HAMSTER CENTRAL USERS pull together, show respect and keep this forum as it should be, Hamster Owners , novice or experienced, sharing the fun of keeping HAMSTERS :lol:

[souffle]

In following my manta of 'if you can't say something nice don't say anything at all' (thank you to Thumper's mum for that you sensible bunny :D ) I have so far only watched this thread with interest. I would like to thank ad36 for the last post which really did make me feel better :lol:

The way I see it is that HamsterCentral is a big family. When you are part of a family you don't choose your family members. You accept who comes along as belonging. In a family we always have the elders who have more experience of life and the younger ones who are nurtured and learn. As they learn and prove themselves they gain respect from old and young. Most families have rules and boundaries that the members are aware of and respect. Within the family there will always be new relationships and newcomers as people find partners and friends but they fit in and work out relationships within the family. There will always be all sorts of characters, temperaments and ages and the crux is that the family all has to work together to maintain a happy balance. Sometimes someone goes off track, like the teenager gets into drugs, someone has medical problems or someone becomes an alcoholic for example, but in a good family they will not be rejected, they will be helped and everyone will try and rally round to overcome their difficulties. These situations will always cause tension and worry within the group but the goal is always to help and accept and to try and understand. There will be good times and bad times. There will be things that the family do that not everyone wants to take part in, like granny may not want to go off piste skiing or bungee jumping, so everyone should not need to feel they have to do everything and not feel bad for not doing it. If a fight breaks out normally one of the elders will step in or sometimes they leave the battlers to sort it out themselves as they feel that a lesson will be learnt.
So I think that the 'forum family' ambiance is in the hands of our members. You are what makes it the place it is, a happy, safe place that people love to be a part of. You need to work at it, yes, and if you cannot feel happy here then I hope you can find enjoyment as part of another family more suited to your temperament though no doubt this one will miss your unique character as any family does when a member departs :D

Follow snugglehams guidance and there should be no-one getting into difficulties. Please be a little patient as there is not always a mod around but we do try and deal with things as soon as we can :wink:

[BatKat]

There has been many postive statements made on this subject and thanks to both Snuggleham & Souffle for their sensible points on this sometimes difficult subject.

All i would like to say is Please read and re read your posts before submitting them, many times i have read my posts and thought oh maybe i shouldn't say that and reworded it before posting. We are all different and see things differently but we are all able to accept help and advise from other members.It's true you can't always judge what another member may think but we are a big family and i have only good things to say about the treatment i have received from HC. From experience we can all learn to understand others viewpoints even if we disagree. Don't get personal, it's will always end in tears.

[SnuggleHam]

I think Souffle sums it up wonderfully! While us mods are here to help people with questions and complaints. The largest part of what makes this forum great are the users (the family). Its the community members who really are the ones responsible for making sure the atmosphere remains healthy. I think if each of us remembered that as we went about our daily/weekly postings back and forth, this place would retain that good old loving feeling it had when it was a bit smaller. Perhaps a hamster central "pledge or code" is in order, something for people to stand by in addition to the rules ;)

[babyboos]

Here here and well done Snuggleham for a well thought out post which I think mirrors the feeling of the moderating team.
If anyone ever, EVER, has any concerns they can get in touch with us - we are here for you so please use us :lol:

[suga]

Its all about change i think, lots of new friends and a fabulous new layout. As long as we all treat each other the way we would want to be treated and show kindness and respect to each other as we would to our personal families, we should rub along just fine.

thanks everyone for interesting discussions and the opportunity for everyone to continue to share and learn from each other.

sugax

[Mollz Mum]

Thank you Snuggleham and Souffle for your lovely posts and opinions.

I think that we all agree, what we were really asking for was a little respect and understanding of each other's opinions.

I too feel that I can come on here and ask any question I want, without being ridiculed or beratted - and I know that I will receive some sensible and useful advice.

Let's all follow the rules, think about what we post and make sure that what we are submitting is positive and helpful.
If we feel that these rules are not being followed, then use the recommended suggestions and talk to the mods.

I think that this post sums it up for all of us:

This forum has run successfully and strongly up until now, so come on HAMSTER CENTRAL USERS pull together, show respect and keep this forum as it should be, Hamster Owners , novice or experienced, sharing the fun of keeping HAMSTERS :lol:

Here, here. :lol:

[Gust0o]

Snuggle and co. - a challenge, if you will!

It would seem that we have an issue; and one that is evidenced, as witness the many posts to this effect at the beginning of this thread.

However, the contention is that we have the current framework to handle such issues.

Which begs the obvious question: then why do people believe that we have an issue?

Sorry, I am being a little cheeky with this - but such is my nature, as people who know me will testify to :D

What, concretely, have we suggested we might do? We've admitted that HC is a family, composed of many varied and diverse individuals - some with respect higher on the agenda than others. Perhaps, as Snuggle has said, some need a kick in the behind?

Is this a commitment? Are we going to be more visible in pushing the respect agenda? Or is it business as usual?

I don't think anyone on here would have the ego to claim that HC is perfect. However, I do feel we're being more accepting of the situation than I might have liked - but perhaps, as Souffle notes, it's time for some of us to move on if we've grown beyond HC. I'm just pained to note that this will likely include many of the people who've made HC what is for me.

I support Gus in his "challenge". What can we do to manage this? As with any functional (or indeed, dysfunctional) family, there will always be some people who "act out" or break the rules. Surely we need to find a way of dealing with this that is made clear to members in advance so that they fully understand what is expected from them and the consequences of breaking those rules/guidelines?

However, I think its important to strike a balance between being respectful and being sycophantic. We all have different standards and ideas concerning what constitues a "heated debate". I must admit to having been a little surprised by a few people's comments lately that certain threads were getting a little too upsetting (the long haired wheel debate, for example). Its made me very cautious about writing anything now (its taken me 12 hours to finally decide to express my opinion here) as I'm apprehensive that some people may take a disagreement as being rude or upsetting. Obviously that's up to the individual(s) concerned, and perhaps I'm used to more "direct" discussions but there is a risk that no-one will dare disagree for fear of upsetting people.

I'm afraid that I don't have any of the answers....only questions and maybe some food for thought,

[SnuggleHam]

Sorry Folks, I am feeling extremely distressed right now, I am going to lock this thread until I can wrap my head around it. :?

[SnuggleHam]

Okay, Well I've thought it over and have come up with some guide lines as to what disruptions are likely to take place on the forum and what punishments will be received by those who don't abide by the rules. Many expressed wanting a system for the forum to deal with "problem users" and this is what I have come up with, and this is my official decision to the matter. This thread will also be posted globally, so it will be seen on all forum topics and in your user control panel.

Hamster Central Complaints vs Action Policy.

Hamster Central follows a “three strikes you're out” rule for general misconduct on the forum. We like to offer people ample chance to improve after they are made aware of their faults within the community. We would prefer to work with “troublesome” users in correcting their ways and offering constructive advice on how to do so. To make things fair on how the administration deals with misconduct on a case to case basis we have hashed out what community offenses are likely to occur and what punishment those offenses will receive. Common mistakes will be given the three strikes rules, but more serious cases may lead to an immediate temporary ban, or permanent ban from the site.


Complaints:
Hamster Central moderators and administrators are the only members who take user complaints. These complaints are recorded and documented and discussed privately to reach an agreement on how a case should be handled. Each user who has a complaint made against them will be contacted by either a moderator or administrator alerting them to the problem. For minor cases, the “three strikes” rule applies. If the misconduct is not resolved, on the third violation that user will be banned. This means each user receives two warnings, then a ban. (Note: numerous complaints on one subject matter coming up within the same time frame is counted as one general complaint in regards to one issue. However after that user has received a first warning and more complaints are made because there were no improvements, that would count as a second strike)

Poor forum conduct:
Use of offensive language.
Posting of objectionable material.
Hijacking threads (taking the focus away from the authors personal/original intention)
Changing the subject in threads and causing it to go off track.

These actions will generally result in warnings to start. Three strikes and you're out. If you are reported for these offenses too many times and receive two warnings, you will be banned on the third.

Disrespect towards other peoples views:
Being rude and/or unconstructive on a regular basis in posts.
Being disrespectful to a fellow forum member.
Acting insensitively for example -causing others to feel like bad people, belittling other members.

These actions will generally result in warnings to start. Three strikes and you're out. If you are reported for these offenses too many times and have received two warnings, you will be banned on the third. However, some of these offenses can become serious quickly. Depending on the situation, it's possible a temporary or permanent ban will happen without warning.

Harassment:
To disturb a forum member or community persistently, be it publicly or in PM(private message)
This offense is likely to be treated as “one strike and you're out”. Harassment will be taken seriously.
One warning should be ample for the offender to reflect on the problem and to improve their behavior. Could result in private messaging privileges to be revoked.

Slander of another user(s): Going out of one's way to purposefully tarnish another user's reputation through the forum, be it publicly or via PM (private message) We do not tolerate this childish behavior of backstabbing and slander. Depending on the severity, a warning in addition to private messaging privileges to be revoked.In serious cases an immediate ban will be imposed.


Slander of a website or business: Going out of one's way to purposefully tarnish another website or related businesses reputation through the forum, be it publicly or via PM (private message) Depending on the severity, a warning in addition to private messaging privileges to be revoked. Or an immediate ban.

To Submit a Complaint.

We really don't want people to be afraid about posting their thoughts on Hamster Central. This topic is really about respect, common courtesy and good manners. However, if you find yourself being continuously upset or offended over another users actions here on the forum we encourage you submit a complaint. Your name will not be brought up in any official warnings to the member in question.

If you hesitate then there may be a chance the persons actions can get out of hand without a moderators or administrator knowing. Chances are someone may have reported the person already. When we received multiple complaints on a single users it is a stronger indicator that their actions are a serious matter in that they are jeopardizing the familial and friendly atmosphere we try and maintain.

We encourage users to politely and respectfully try and work out their own problems if its possible to do so without it ruining the experience for other members on the forum.

If a problem member has done things in the past but were never reported we can only treat their first official complaint as their first offense. We don't wish to turn the users of Hamster Central into a bunch of tattle-tails, but if you notice a common trend in a user behavior that upsets a large majority of people on a regular basis, please report it.

See template below for submitting reports.

Name of user in question:

Summary of problem:

Include thread thinks pertaining to the issue:

Include copies of any private messages between individuals (if needed):

[Mollz]

Thank you Snuggleham, I think this is perfect and what a lot of us wanted.

You are wonderful!

[Bunsey]

with the slander one, are we not allowed to say if we think something is bad?

Like what if i said "pet world" is horrible and a rip off and it smells!... would that get a warning?

[SnuggleHam]

with the slander one, are we not allowed to say if we think something is bad?

Like what if i said "pet world" is horrible and a rip off and it smells!... would that get a warning?

I think it depends on the conversation. If you had a personal bad experience at such a place, I don't think it would be a huge problem if you gave your opinion. Generalized topics about pet stores is a bit different so long as no fingers are really pointed at one business company. I really don't want entire threads dedicated to the slander of a business though. Some places are better managed and with better employees then others. Plus such topics over and over grow tiresome to read and generally create a negative atmosphere.

If there are certain principles on the pet shop business/industry that you wish to talk about that is fine. Because in that case its more directed at management and responsibility in a general light then targeting one company or store. Perhaps in such discussions words like "Large Chain Pet Stores" would be best used.

I think you've done a great job Snuggleham. You've obviously put a lot of time and thought into it so we're very grateful.

My only comment is that in the UK (not sure about the US), its considered libel rather than slander as slander refers to speech and libel refers to the written word. :)

[ad36]

Its a welldone and thank you from me Snuggleham. I think this is a fair and suitable approach to this issue that was raised. Now it's time to move forward :D

[Matty Day]

for the most part no pproblem and a great idea :D

however i do have concerns about thread hijack as somtimes threads move from a certain aspect of an issue to the whole issue in general if you get a warning for that that seems ott to me. or what about a questoin which is slightly related adressed to the thread creator ?

secondly the slander of other buiness and ebsites thing does this include heavy critismm? as just sometmes a buiness deserves a poor reputation for poor service/pratices in my opinoin

apart from that not to bad and fair for the most part well done afterall every new system often need minor tweaks :D

[Mollz Mum]

Thank you Snuggleham - it must have been a very difficult and upsetting situation to deal with, but as always you have done so brilliantly. I think those rules and guidelines will make things much more straightforward.

[SnuggleHam]

for the most part no pproblem and a great idea :D

however i do have concerns about thread hijack as somtimes threads move from a certain aspect of an issue to the whole issue in general if you get a warning for that that seems ott to me. or what about a questoin which is slightly related adressed to the thread creator ? Changing the thread on someone and taking it in another direction is simply rude. I think people need to be more mindful of that. If you have another question that is unrelated to the topic at hand, start a new topic or PM someone and ask. There is plenty of space to make new threads. This way its easier for other people to find as they browse the forum. They can see each topic that interests them and click on it, rather then having to use search to find information and skim though pages until they get to the part they want.

I feel this problem is a common issue that often leads to problem discussions.

secondly the slander of other buiness and ebsites thing does this include heavy critismm? as just sometmes a buiness deserves a poor reputation for poor service/pratices in my opinoin
Perhaps this is true, but this rule is mainly to cover my butt. I don't want HC recognized as the forum that slanders businesses, and I don't need any legal issue either.

HC members asked for more rules and a strict ruling hand. I thought of everything that tends to bring that friendly HC atmosphere down and wrote up a way to manage it and deal with it.

[SnuggleHam]

Thank you Snuggleham - it must have been a very difficult and upsetting situation to deal with, but as always you have done so brilliantly. I think those rules and guidelines will make things much more straightforward.

Thanks you, it was very stressful I wont lie! Like everyone else, I am also getting used to this growing forum. I feel the strain as much as any user, especially when "problems" arise. Many people have been very supportive towards me though this little adventure and I am grateful for it :)