Should I separate?

[Leon]

Hi everyone,
I'm looking for some advice about my two robo boys, Barnum and Bailey. They are about six months old and have lived together since birth (they were part of an accidental litter I had). They have always squabbled a little, but yesterday I noticed a little scab on Bailey's rump. He is always the submissive one in fights, his smaller brother seems to initiate them. Other than the little scab (which is almost gone today) and a little fur loss around it, he seems fine, is running around quite happily and the two of them are curled up together as normal right now - they also are sleeping together still. I am obviously keeping a very close eye on them, but I am reluctant to separate them if I can avoid it, as a) I had a robo in the past who lived alone for a while and he really seemed lonely (eating less, less active) and b) I've just bought them a nice big 20 gallon tank and I don't have space for another the same, so one would have to have a smaller cage. On the other hand, of course I would rather separate them than risk serious injury.

So what do people think? Are there any other solutions that might work? (I scatter their food and they had 2 water bottles until one started to leak a few days ago - I need to replace it, but I doubt that is the immediate problem - they also have two wheels and plenty of space to hide).

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Tammy22]

Hi Leon,

Roborovskis are one of the most social species of hamster (in my oppinion) - they love company and prefer to be in pairs or small groups.

It is very common for them to have squables now and then, even when they do shed blood, they will still sleep together in the same place and cuddle up - they seem to crave company!

Roborovskis reach maturity at around 3 to 6 months old, and at this time they will be trying to establich some sort of hierachy and sort out who is most dominant. They are at that age now so that is probably why they are squabbling at the moment.

If they havent drawn blood then they should be fine - Roborovskis are very vocal and will squeek even if they are not hurt - it can be just a way to try and scare the other away, or tryin to show that they surrender - some will squeel if you pick them up by the skin behind their neck, even though it definately doesnt hurt them!

You must keep a close on them and make sure they dont fetch blood from each other - once blood has been shed then you must separate them as it will only get worse from then on, and they can hurt each other enough to cause death - you will then wake up one morning to find one half eaten!! which is not nice to see, especially as you have children, but it is completely normal behaviour for them to dispose of the body in that way!!

I often have people contacting me about similar problems and most of them want the hamsters to have the best chances of staying together. I usually recommend putting them in a completely clean tank with no toys or wheels, just scattered food and two water bottles, and some bedding - it usually bonds them again as they hve nothing to fight over and the you can gradually start intoduces toys and wheels two at a time.

Good Luck

Kind Regards,

Tammy x

[Leon]

Hi Tammy,

Thanks for your response. I guess there must have been some blood, for there to be a scab at all, although it was dried by the time I saw it. Perhaps it would be better for me to separate them.

When they squabble, they don't usually appear to be fighting over anything in particular. They will get close to one another, just walking around, and then the small one will start to chase the larger one, usually ending up with him on his back and squeaking.

Do you think it would be worth trying cleaning out the tank completely, then adding toys and wheels gradually as you suggest?

Thank you!
Jenny

[Tammy22]

Hi Jenny,

it cant hurt to give them a chance to be together, as long as you keep a close eye on them.

Make sure the tank is completely clean, best to use a safe pet disenfectant and then put in a thick layer of shavings and some bedding. Scatter plenty of food and put in two water bottles, then put in the two hamsters together.

Make sure you keep a very close eye on them - if there is any sign of blood separate them immediately, if not then you can introduce the toys and wheels gradually two at a time. but make sure all of the toys and wheels are cleaned properly too.

If at any time they start fighting seriously then you can always start again from the very beginning if you like.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt, you will just have to try it. Some Roborovskis do just prefer to live alone though1

Kind Regards,

Tammy x

[PinkEmily]

I have two robo girls, not so long ago i had the same issue. Blood was shed but i kept them together. I have since moved them into a Rotastak Creepy castle with 3 separate sections and the squabbling has stopped. they were in a savic rody cage before that and i guess they got frustrated being in each others faces all the time, where as now they have different 'rooms' to go play in, the smaller bits being a bedroom and a food room/flying saucer room and the larger one having the wheels/water/playhouse.

What cage do you have them in at the moment?

I wouldnt give up on them yet, just keep your eye on them.


EDIT: ive just seen you have a 20 gallon tank :x I suppose you could always make rooms out of cardboard???? That could be interesting. I think they just need their own space sometimes, the main reason Belle bit Minni was because she annoyed her, Minni is quite hyper.

[Leon]

Hi PinkEmily, thanks for your response too. I read your thread when I was looking for tips - that's an interesting idea, especially since the general wisdom is "no modular cages for dwarfies". Just out of interest, do you have a picture of your rotastak cage? I'm in the US and pretty much the only modular cages we have access to are Crittertail.

I have plenty of toys in my tank that the little guys can hide in, but the rooms out of cardboard is an interesting idea - I might give that a go (good project for a rainy Sunday, after all). I'm also going to try Tammy's idea of cleaning out the cage and building things up gradually.

Thanks for both of your help!

[PinkEmily]

heres a few pictures, they arent the best quality as they are from my mobile. They are due a clean this week :oops:

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o24/pink_princess_emily/Photo-0203.jpg
They also climb up a ladder to the green things at the top.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o24/pink_princess_emily/Photo-0204.jpg

Its supposed to look like this but i thought a ground level cage would be better
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o24/pink_princess_emily/rotastak_creepy_castle.jpg

[Leon]

Thanks for posting those, it looks great! Must be a nightmare to clean though :?

My little guys have been fine today when they've been up and around - I've hardly left the room as I'm keeping a close eye on them!

[PinkEmily]

Its not too bad tbh, it used to be when i had it like the bottom pic though, pulling the top part to pieces to clean it out was annoying, the sawdust ended up everywhere!

[Leon]

Right, here's an update. I left everything as it was yesterday while the little guys slept, as there seemed to be no point disturbing them while they were peacefully together. I was planning to do the cleaning out thing that Tammy suggested when they woke up. However, when they woke up I got Bailey out to check on him and discovered that he now has a much larger patch on his rump with little bite marks, missing fur and dried blood. So they must have been up and fighting while I was out of the room :oops:

Anyway now I think I just need to separate them. This patch on Bailey's rear gave me a bit of a scare. I've cleaned it as best I can with a damp cotton bud and right now he's in a smaller travel cage for observation though he really seems fine. My question now is shall I flat out separate them for good, or should I maybe try dividing their 20-gallon tank so that they can see and smell each other? If they go in separate tanks, shall I swap them over every now and again so they remember each other's scent, then try to reintroduce them later?

Sorry for all the drama, but I really appreciate your help!

[Leon]

Sorry, one more question. Bailey has a patch on his rump about 1-1.5 cm square where he's lost fur and has bite marks. I've cleaned it with a damp cotton bud but is there anything else I should do e.g. to keep it clean? He is scuffling around, eating and drinking as normal, so he seems fine in himself. I do have some antibiotics from a previous robo vet trip a couple of months back - a silver sulfadiazine cream and sulfatrim oral suspension. Don't know if the cream might prevent infection or something. Will do nothing for now unless an expert tells me otherwise. Thank you!

[souffle]

With bites it is best to do one clean with a cotton ball and cooled boiled water only then leave it to heal. It can take several weeks for the fur to regrow and it may be a different shade to the old fur and patchy. You do not needs creams or oral antibiotics unless there is an infection as they can upset the system. Keep a very close eye on the wounds and make sure there is no sign of oozing or very red skin or swelling apart from how it looks now. A little puffiness is normal at first. Leave the scabs till they come off on their own.
I have to say I would separate them now unless you are really keen to keep trying. It sounds as if they are not happy together and one is suffering from bullying. You will likely find they settle fine after a few days 'sulking' and improve in condition and health. You will also feel more relaxed knowing you are not going to wake up to a bloodbath one day.
I hope he heals up well

[Leon]

Thanks for the tips souffle. I will keep a close eye on Bailey's bites. I think you are right about separating them. I would really like them to be together but it's just not worth the risk. The past couple of nights I haven't slept well and have been waking up and coming in to check on them, and even if they seemed to be getting on well I'd be very worried if I went away.

May I ask what you think about how to separate them? Entirely separate cages, divided cage, swapping them over to remember each others' scent with a view to re-introducing them?

[souffle]

Personally I would just separate into totally separate cages. You can keep them side by side but I think if you keep smelling the others scents in cage swaps it would be stressful for them as they will keep thinking the other one is going to attack. Sress can contribute to their health situation and the injured ones healing may be impared by the stress of smelling the other. They do seem to remember being attacked by another. I don't think you would be comfortable trying to reintroduce them in case it happened again. You could not do it anyway till the injured one is completely well again which would take at least a month. A large bare patch that size is quite big on a tiny robo really. It can be done though as I remember Snugglehams Cupcake and Muffin got back together after separation for quite a while.

[Holly]

It can be done though as I remember Snugglehams Cupcake and Muffin got back together after separation for quite a while.

I was thinking of Cupcake and Muffin! I think you've got no chance at all with any other breed of dwarf but robo's sometimes seem different, though obviously it's still risky.

[Leon]

Sress can contribute to their health situation and the injured ones healing may be impared by the stress of smelling the other.

I've just put Bailey back into the 20-gallon, and moved Barnum into another cage, because I thought it would be the least stress for Bailey to stay in the same cage. However it will still smell of his brother - is that ok?

[Leon]

Hmm, well, they're separated now and have gone off to sleep quite happily. I think tbh as long as they seem ok separate, I will just keep them that way, it's probably not worth the risk.

Funny, I always thought robos were the easiest to keep together, but recently I've heard a few people say campbells are easier. The lady who took Barnum&Bailey's two brothers told me she had to separate them too. Must be an argumentative family!

Thanks for all of your help.

[souffle]

Next time you do a clean give them both fresh and I am sure they will be fine. When we separated our two WW we left the injured one in the old cage and he seemed happy with that.