Animal sign language

[kiania]

I saw a documentary last month where some apes (can't remember which type) had been taught sign language. The one shown on the program asked to go out for a car ride, told the driver which direction to go and where to stop so she could go for a picnic !

Might have been Koko, who is a gorilla. She's the only non-human ape that I've heard of that has demanded car rides off her carers :) But yes, there is Koko (gorilla), Chantek (orangutan - who is adorable in person!), Kanzi (bonobo), Nim Chimpsky (chimp), Washoe (chimp who also taught other chimps to sign). And then you go onto animals like Ai and Ayumu (youtube them :) ) who are chimps who have been trained in numbers and memory. Alex the African Grey parrot with a rather impressive vocabulary, and Batyr the elephant who also, for an elephant, had an impressive verbal vocab! And we're not even going into the corvids and their ability with tools and problem solving that out-shines any other non-human.

There was an experiment in a zoo where they were doing intelligence labs with their great apes. They got a tube with a nut at the bottom, too low for fingers to reach, and just watched them (this was an orang). The female used mouthfuls of water from her water drinker to fill the tube and get the nut out. They then did the same with humans outside with a plastic container full of sweets, with various tools (including a jug of water) that might be used to gain the prize...no human got it, even though they tried a lot :) I saw it at a preview, but it may have become the first episode of Super Smart Animals (here: BBC One - Super Smart Animals (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01by4w1) ) if you want more :)

But yes...most animal intelligence stuff is only just coming out and becoming 'accepted science', but it was about the 60s (if I remember correctly) that people started doing language experiements.

I wouldn't be at all surprised in the next 50 years, we have to re-think our understanding again. I know for the people in the primate intelligence industry, we've got quite a few other species (corvids, macaws, elephants, dolphins, etc) on our heels in the "I'm as smart as a 5 year old human" stakes now! It is more of a case of designing the appropriate experiment now, rather than wondering if species are 'intelligent' - I remember reading a report on gibbons, previously thought to be fairly low on the intelligence stakes - they realised it is because of the way their hands are shaped, they form 'hooks', so aren't helpful with manual dexterity tests.

But back on topic, and away from my passion :) That cage...is horrible. I may be a little on the outside, as I consider my 91.5cm long Perfecto to be too small...but seeing the cages that are half the size of it, or even less...urgh. I try not to think of the two hamsters I kept in a single rotastak back in the 80's and early 90's without even a thought. Thank any deity (or other) that you like that at least (assuming people do their research) there is some hope for small mammals like hamsters now.

[Queen Of The High Teas]

I dislike and disagree with the belief that humans are more intelligent than animals.

Wild animals know if they go near the majority of humans they will likely die so they keep their distance. Humans know that if they go near dangerous animals they will likely die so they go diving with man eating sharks or searching for deadly snakes in the outback.

Animals kill others only for survival and food. Humans kill for fun to make themselves feel big cause that's their mentality.

Animals get along by relying on their instincts and their brains. Humans get along by following guidance manuals and what everyone else is doing.

Animals make sure that their homes are a proper size for themselves, considering if it's suitable or not. Humans house things in any old size as they dont give a damn if it's suitable or not, all their interested in is their profit.

Now who's more intelligent?:rolleyes:

[Angelhamster]

I totally recommend signing with your baby! In the preschool I work in, we use Makaton with all the children, & it boosts their confidence so much, & therefore their communication when we can understand their wants & needs.

Hamsters hands are a bit small for signing that we can see, PECS might work well though!

Thanks - I think we'll definitely go with signing :-). I was saying the other night that I really wished Angel could talk (or ther form of communication) so we old ensure she had everything she needed.

We can only hope that by her behaviour that she's happy in her ZZ2 with her digging box attached. How they can be satisfied in tiny cages like these when they're fully gown Syrians (I know nothing of Robos' etc needs), I don't know :-s

[Angelhamster]

Might have been Koko, who is a gorilla. She's the only non-human ape that I've heard of that has demanded car rides off her carers :) But yes, there is Koko (gorilla), Chantek (orangutan - who is adorable in person!), Kanzi (bonobo), Nim Chimpsky (chimp), Washoe (chimp who also taught other chimps to sign). And then you go onto animals like Ai and Ayumu (youtube them :) ) who are chimps who have been trained in numbers and memory. Alex the African Grey parrot with a rather impressive vocabulary, and Batyr the elephant who also, for an elephant, had an impressive verbal vocab! And we're not even going into the corvids and their ability with tools and problem solving that out-shines any other non-human.

There was an experiment in a zoo where they were doing intelligence labs with their great apes. They got a tube with a nut at the bottom, too low for fingers to reach, and just watched them (this was an orang). The female used mouthfuls of water from her water drinker to fill the tube and get the nut out. They then did the same with humans outside with a plastic container full of sweets, with various tools (including a jug of water) that might be used to gain the prize...no human got it, even though they tried a lot :) I saw it at a preview, but it may have become the first episode of Super Smart Animals (here: BBC One - Super Smart Animals (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01by4w1) ) if you want more :)

I think this is the programme we watched! It was great but made me even more sad about how some animals (particularly in the wild) are treated so terribly. Being hunted (not for food), losing habitats, being caught in 'inhumane' traps etc. :-(

[Angelhamster]

I dislike and disagree with the belief that humans are more intelligent than animals.

Wild animals know if they go near the majority of humans they will likely die so they keep their distance. Humans know that if they go near dangerous animals they will likely die so they go diving with man eating sharks or searching for deadly snakes in the outback.

Animals kill others only for survival and food. Humans kill for fun to make themselves feel big cause that's their mentality.

Animals get along by relying on their instincts and their brains. Humans get along by following guidance manuals and what everyone else is doing.

Animals make sure that their homes are a proper size for themselves, considering if it's suitable or not. Humans house things in any old size as they dont give a damn if it's suitable or not, all their interested in is their profit.

Now who's more intelligent?:rolleyes:

Lol! I love the logic here :-)

[kiania]

I think this is the programme we watched! It was great but made me even more sad about how some animals (particularly in the wild) are treated so terribly. Being hunted (not for food), losing habitats, being caught in 'inhumane' traps etc. :-(

What made me laugh was the fact that when I watched it, firstly it had it's original name rather than the dumbed down one it later got, and secondly, the woman starring in it hadn't done any of the voice overs at that point, so they were being read out by one of the BBC people (forget if he was the producer, or lower ranking, but it was the guy doing the talk). So he was talking about being a woman, and all sorts - it was fairly amusing :)

As for the human/other animal intelligence thing, it all depends on what people classify as 'intelligence'. This is slowly being whittled away. I think the current defining factor that sets humans apart is that humans have complex language with the ability to use syntax (the difference between 'you give me' and 'me give you'), but that one is being rather being squished. After that, we've got our ability to alter our environment to suit our requirements (terraforming), but we have to consider that on a 'mass scale', because otherwise what are nests, burrows, and hermit crabs doing. Either way, the bravado has shrunk from "Pfft, we must be the most intelligent, we can understand verbal language", to "Oh, Vervet monkeys have specific alarm calls...but we have more than 3 'words', and none can speak back in a human language", to "Oh, we've managed to teach all species of the great ape to use sign language above 100 different words, as well as most great apes have been taught to use lexigrams on boards to match pictures to real objects...and we've got parrots and elephants (supposedly) who can actually speak our language. Well, at least we're best with tools!", to "Drat...you say corvids and the great apes are better at problem solving?". What makes humans 'special' (or what we as a whole use to define us away from the rest of the animal kingdom) is fading very veeeeeery fast.

That said, if you consider the ability to survive alone (in a suitable social group - so a family unit) in the wild a factor in intelligence, while a fair amount of humans could manage it, most of us would either flail, or completely fail spectacularly. Although then you come into quandries about captivity - are humans in captivitity? If so, then it isn't fair to compare 'captive' humans to wild animals, the same way you would release your pet syrian and expect it to survive.

Aside from that, the whole killing for survival/food being only humans isn't technically true. Chimpanzees hold wars where they sneak through the jungle and try to whack another tribe for no apparent reason (no food shortage, mate shortage, etc). Safer to consider it as no great ape doesn't kill for survival/food that we've currently discovered (last part is important).

...and now I'm really off topic :)

[mangoandmimi]

Humans are.. possibly the least intelligent on the planet.
Now ants, i'd say are one of the 'smartest', best evolved animals :mad: If an earthquake occured, who'd survive? Who has an even bigger population than humans that don't have trouble fitting on the earth? Who's been around longer, and will undoubtebly outlive humans? Ants, of course.
However advanced technology gets, they can never see life from an animal's perspective

[souffle]

I have split this from the cage topic as it is way off topic!

[kiania]

I have split this from the cage topic as it is way off topic!

Thanks for the split :)

[Angelhamster]

I would say by most measurements humans are the best able to manipulate the world to suit their needs. Simply put we can't fly but we figured out how to. we loose our sight so we invent glasses - thus extending our active life span. we get sick so we discover cures.....and so on. We are now starting to understand the very nature of the universe.

That's not to say we don't do really dumb stuff and are horribly cruel to each other and other species. Perhaps we will evolve not to do those things.

Despite the fabulous wealth and resource many enjoy we will sit by while others die.

We are extraordinary creatures.