3 Transplant Recipients Die From Virus Related To Rodents [Archive]

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SnuggleHam

05-25-2005, 03:12 PM

3 Transplant Recipients Die From Virus Related To Rodents

Pet Store Testing Hamsters, Guinea Pigs, Mice For Signs Of Virus

POSTED: 6:04 pm EDT May 23, 2005

UPDATED: 1:33 pm EDT May 24, 2005

PROVIDENCE, R.I. -- A pet store chain linked to a rodent virus that killed three human transplant patients said Tuesday it is testing its breeding stocks of hamsters, guinea pigs and mice for signs of the virus.

Three patients died from the lymphocytic choriomeningitis virus after receiving organs from a single donor, health officials said Monday. They believe the donor may have contracted the virus from a hamster purchased at a Petsmart store in Warwick.

A spokesman for Phoenix-based Petsmart said the company is having its hamsters, guinea pigs and mice tested.

"We're taking samples of the breeding stock and also some of the juvenile pets from our vendors for testing," spokesman Bruce Richardson said.

He said the chain regularly tests for other diseases but not LCMV because it is rare. Richardson also noted it is not clear whether the hamster, which has died, was infected with LCMV when it arrived at the organ donor's household.

"To our knowledge, we didn't sell any sick hamsters," he said. There also are no indications of an LCMV outbreak among the chain's suppliers, he said.

Health officials removed dozens of hamsters, mice and rats from the Warwick store.

LCMV is commonly found in house mice but usually produces only flulike symptoms in humans. It has also been associated with neurological illness and miscarriage in pregnant women.

In this case, however, the victims were transplant recipients who were taking very large doses of immune system-suppressing medication, which can allow viruses to multiply and cause an "overwhelming infection," state health director David Gifford said.

A few weeks after the transplants in mid-April, three patients died: a liver recipient and a double-lung recipient, both from Massachusetts, and a kidney transplant recipient from Rhode Island. Another Rhode Island patient who received a kidney became ill, but is recovering.

Public health officials who announced the deaths Monday said it was only the second documented case of LCMV being spread through an organ transplant and stressed its rarity in humans.

"We would encourage people who are on the (transplant) waiting list not to be concerned with this," Gifford said. "This is an extremely rare and unusual event."

Gifford did not identify the patients.

The double lung transplant was performed at Brigham & Women's Hospital in Boston, the liver transplant at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston and both kidney transplants at Rhode Island Hospital in Providence, officials said.

Gifford said there are no plans to test other donor organs for the virus since it is so rare and testing could take several days, potentially making the organs unusable. He said he believed there was no commercially available test for the virus.

Two patients outside the United States received corneas from the Rhode Island donor, and officials of the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said they are investigating where those corneas went.

Only one previous instance of LCMV causing a transplant-related death has been reported -- in Wisconsin in December 2003 -- but it wasn't definitively linked to rodent exposure, said Dr. Matthew Kuehnert of the CDC.

CDC investigators were testing the dead hamster to confirm the virus as the cause of the recent deaths. "We believe the hamster was the source, but we can't rule out a common house mouse," said CDC spokesman Dave Daigle.

My husband and I happened to be in Warwick last weekend, I stopped at petsmart to get a few things. I went over to see the rodents and found all the rodents to be missing. I figured they were sold out untill I noticed a printed out sign of regular computer paper that said the animals had been taken into the back due to illness. Or something along those lines. Didnt say much more then that.

I bought my male gerbil orlando from there some months back, But he seems alright..

afishcalledwanda

05-25-2005, 04:56 PM

Candace, I have been on a campaign all month with regards to issues like this. Petsmart, Petco and Petland all buy their small animals from giant mills. It is the same as the salmonella story.

If you go to PWS and have a browse through these links,

Click here (http://www.petwebsite.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=27120&FORUM_ID=6&CAT_ID=3&Topic_Title=In+the+new+this+morning&Forum_Title=Syrian+Hamsters+%2D+Generalurl)

and this one from the salmonella nonsense,

Click here (http://www.petwebsite.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=26398&FORUM_ID=4&CAT_ID=3&Topic_Title=I+just+heard+something+disturbing%2E%2 E%2E%2E&Forum_Title=Dwarf+Hamsters+%2D+Generalurl)

I have contacted the ASPCA and got a blow off letter saying they had no time for hamsters because they were concentrating on puppy mills. Well, in both instances, the problem can be traced back to the breeder. The salmonella breeders are all on the east coast. The one from RI is from Phoeniz Az.

This is now a public health issue and it has nothing to do with general diseases and inflictions caused by small rodents as pets. If you want to see what the ASPCA and I went back and forth with, ask, and I will email it to you.

I need national help with this. This is in the works to go public. The large chain stores are horrid with the abuse and enabling of the giant mills and they need to be stopped. I am in a sit and wait situation right now. I am also in touch with a vet associated with the CDC and am waiting to hear from him as well.

Anyone here willing to DO something aside from kvetching on a forum, feel free to contact me.

[email protected]

I also use windows messenger. If you want to use messenger, email me with your info and I'll send you mine.

I was involved in the removal of dogs and cats in pet shops and the public awareness of the puppy mills. I participated in the public awarness program we 'dog people' did. We held fun shows in the malls, protested in front of stores and made life miserable in general for anyone who bought animals from mills.

I hate to bring you terrible news, but the 14 day return policy at these stores is crap. Do you really think they tend to hamsters with wet tail 24/7? No, they take them in the 'back' and - you don't want to know the rest.

Every animal taken from that store has been euthanized and taken to the CDC and RI dept of health for testing.

This all starts at the breeders. Read those links. I need people who want to help who aren't afraid to get 'dirty'.

Rodents are clean animals. They don't spread disease and infection, it's the environment they live in that causes these kinds of problems. Fleas, ticks, creepy crawlies like that which live on the pet, cause the problems.

Anyone here have a big mouth and allot of guts? Contact me. Email is above.

SnuggleHam

05-25-2005, 05:43 PM

Joan, I didn’t assume that all the rodents were disease infested. It was just on the news and I thought to post it. I’m sure not all animals were affected. I didn’t really have any knowledge as to were they came from, I did however ask where they got a shipment of dwarfs from last summer when I stopped there and saw them unloading the animals from a small wire crate. All of them seemed healthy and happy and the worker said they got them from Ohio.

I would love to support you but I really don’t know what I could do to help. I’m not that knowable about rodent mills and where the stores get their animals from, and unless I have hard core facts I’m not going to be able to really stand up for myself and the rodents when I’m not very informed... know what I mean?

What’s the difference between and industry that breed animals for pet stores and mills? When I think of mills I think of dirty cages and inbred animals ect. But the places they get them from must have some kind of health code and all that? I mean this is a large chain pet store we are talking about.

I know the 14 day back guarantee is crap. Iv asked the workers at this very Petsmart in Warwick what they do with hamsters that have wet tail. They have a veterinary office right in the building; apparently the animals are treated by that vet. Another person I saw on the LJ forum says he works at a pet smart and that hamsters with wetail usually pull through is given dritail in early stages.. I don’t know how true that is because I know wet tail usually shows once its to late to do anything.

See its hard to know what the facts are.. Ill take a look at the links though tomorrow when I have more time.

Is there anything Hamster Central can do? maybe support and article or something about it?

afishcalledwanda

05-25-2005, 06:10 PM

I need help from anyone who is willing. Ignorant or not. Help is not needed just yet but those who want to help, will be contacted with updates and this is worked out.

If you dont want to help, that's fine. Petsmart has no vet offices in any stores nation wide. Why would they tell anyone this I don't know other than to simply shut them up.

Read those articles. You'll get more information than you wanted. Then we'll talk again if you're interested.

peanut25

05-25-2005, 07:09 PM

I will help if I am able. One of the people that are going to be adopting one of my babies actually brought the articles up to me and I had to let her that my babies are newborns and not part of a mill where I believe this is happening at as well. I have contacted the aspca as well and got blown off because they are working on the puppy mills. How sad, I thought all animals were equal. I guess that is wrong. :cry:

Emma

05-26-2005, 04:09 AM

I'm not sure that LCMV is quite as relavent to the hamster-mill problem as the salmonella outbreaks are? LCMV is widespread in wild rodents and generally asymptomatic in rodents, it's something all lab colonies etc. are aware of and workers take appropriate hygiene precautions. It's not necessarily associated with poor hygiene/husbandry and is certainly not associated with prophylactic use of antibiotics, as it is a virus.

I completely understand the need for action on the hamster-mill problem as highlighted by the recent salmonella scares, but I think LCMV is somewhat of a separate issue, and implicating it in an effort to combat hamster-mills may lead to those who can make a difference taking the campaign less seriously?

Anyway, some info on LCMV from the VIN (as I posted on PWS, in case anyone wants more information). Haha that's too many anacronyms!

Lymphocytic Choriomeningitis

Etiology:

LCM Virus

Epidemiology:

Etiological Agent:

LCM Virus (RNA Virus: Arenavirus: Arenaviridae) is a rodent borne virus which may be passed to man in a number of different ways.

Once infected, humans may develop a moderate to severe disease of the central nervous system which may produces a variety of CNS signs. Women infected during pregnancy may pass the virus to the fetus via the placenta.

Reservoir Host:

House mouse (Mus musculus) and hamsters.

Portals of Escape:

Nasal secretions, urine, semen, milk and feces.

Transmission/Dissemination:

Mouse bites, handling dead mice, ingestion of food contaminated by mouse feces and urine, aerosols in laboratories, arthropods may play a limited role in dissemination, congenital transmission between mice and congenital transmission between humans. In recent years hamsters, which are kept as household pets, have become increasingly important in LCM transmission.

Portals of Entry:

Permucosal respiratory.

Permucosal alimentary.

Percutaneous (mouse or hamster bite).

Percutaneous (wound contamination) from handling dead mice or hamsters.

Transplacental.

Susceptible Hosts:

Mouse, hamster, guinea pig, and man.

Incubation Period:

1-2 weeks.

Seasonal Distribution:

Transmission occurs equally in all seasons.

Geographical Distribution:

Generally considered to be worldwide however there have been no isolates from Africa or Australia.

Mortality:

Low.

Zoonotic Classification:

Direct anthropozoonoses.

Treatment/Management/Prevention:

Human:

None.

Animal:

None.

Prevention/Control:

House mouse control. Do not handle mice with bare hands.

Maintain serological surveillance of rodent colonies.

Pregnant women should avoid handling hamsters, mice and other rodents.

It is possible to test for LCMV (at least in the US it seems) to see if your animal carries it, for example if you are pregnant and concerned about it. If you've handled many hamsters/mice for a long time, it's likely you'll already have been exposed to it and have developed an immunity - this can also be tested for, going by postings on a vet message board.

LCMV in humans generally causes a mild cold/flu like disease, in some cases it may go on to cause CNS disease. It is only really a concern for immunocompromised individuals (such as these transplant recipients) and pregnant women.

If you want any more info on LCMV Joan just ask, it's been quite widley researched I think. I do think it might just be complicating matters for you though - going by the reports and searches I've done it hasn't even been confirmed yet if the donor was carrying LCMV from her hamster or not - she could have been infected from wild rodents. Has LCMV been demonstrated in the pet shop stock?

SnuggleHam

05-26-2005, 04:28 AM

Petsmart has no vet offices in any stores nation wide. Why would they tell anyone this I don't know other than to simply shut them up.

Read those articles. You'll get more information than you wanted. Then we'll talk again if you're interested.

This one DOES have a vets office right in the store I know this because Iv seen it. It’s a veterinary office right in the store where people can bring their animals to be seen by the vet. I also know its there because when we adopted our cat Woody from there we were also given a free first complimentary check up with the veterinary office in their store for him. The employees told me sick animals at the store are treated by their vet.

There was another time at this very petsmart in warick that I saw a cocokatiel there that was way to young and had been taken on bird formula and places with older teils before it was ready and as a concequince looked weeks and was covered in feces becuase the stronger teils wouldnt alow it in the perches, so I told an employee and they rushed ir over the the veterinary office.

Another time I bought a hamster from that petsmart with wet tail when I dicovered it was ill I called the places and they told me to bring it in ASAP, I had the option to either get my money back, or I could surrending the animal and once they had treated it and it was in good health again I could come and pick it up. Of course I wouldnt be able to had it been past the 14 day back gaurentee :P

Coco1

05-31-2005, 01:53 PM

Petsmart has no vet offices in any stores nation wide. Why would they tell anyone this I don't know other than to simply shut them up.

Candace is right, we have one down here in Texas also and its a large one. It is a full vets office inside the store. I used to take my cat there all the time for yearly shots and when she became sick she had lots of tests there and xrays etc. Its a full veterinary clinic with at least two vets and lots of assistants.

Another one by us has a much smaller one and i'm not sure if it does all the big stuff but has a vet there.

????????

afishcalledwanda

06-01-2005, 01:35 PM

Look, if you all feel that PetSmart is all that, then fine, go ahead and feel that way, it's your right. Just please, don't try to convince me.

PetSmart and PetCo are the major buyers of all small animals from mills. I guess reading the links didn't sway anyone's knowledge, or maybe they weren't read.

I am trying to put a stop to all the small pet mills. They are just as horrible as the puppy mills, even worse depending on your personal taste in animals.

I just got an email from a friend who works in a Petco and she had to clean out dead dwarf hamsters because they drowned in the water. They weren't dead 10 minutes prior when she cleaned out their cage. The store she works in refuses to use water bottles. She has had many, many animals arrive in unsatisfactory conditions and many dead and alive in the same crate upon arrival. Many times with barely a chunk of POTATO of all things, for food and water.

The salmonella scare can be traced to several large breeders and the hamsters all came from PETSMARTS.

I bought a hamster from PetSmart, he was dead inside of a week and at a cost of $130 to me. I wasn't about to have his last days on earth at their hands, I don't trust them.

The transplant problem can be traced to another PetSmart, they get their hamsters from a breeder in ARIZONA. the animals that were confiscated all tested had traces of the infection that killed. I understand Emma's explaination of what happened and how the disease is carried but I have had pet raccoons before and they carry rabies. That is the only comparison I know right off the top of my head. Even though the animal carries the disease, these kinds of carriers are only at risk of passing or coming down with it if they are stressed. Then their systems cannot hold it back. This is the simplest way I can explain it.

Don't you think the trip from Arizona to Connecticut would be a bit stressful?

Anyway, I've said my piece, and I will never ask for help from this forum on this topic again. Aparently convienience is more important than the big picture.

SnuggleHam

06-01-2005, 02:48 PM

Emma

06-01-2005, 06:19 PM

Back on the topic of LCMV........(cross-posted)

Milwaukee- At least six deaths of organ transplant patients have now

been linked to a rodent virus, raising questions about whether

others may have gone undetected and whether the germ also could

spread through blood transfusions. Health officials believe the

deaths are rare cases, but say the situation merits closer study in

light of recent discoveries that rabies and West Nile Virus

occasionally spread through donated organs with deadly consequences.

We're learning as we go here. This is a new phenomenon, Dr. Matthew

Kuehnert, assistant director of blood safety for the Centers for

Disease control and prevention, said of the rodent virus. Rhode

Island and Massachusetts officials said Monday they are

investigating the deaths of three people who got organs from a

female donor whose pet hamster tested positive for lymphocytic

choriomeningitis virus, or LCMV. A fourth organ recipient is belived

to be recovering. Turesday, health officials in Wisconsin revealed

that four transplant recipients died in the only previously known

cases involving the virus in December 2003. The cases weren't clear-

cut the organ donor and a woman who received a lung from him in an

operation in Minnesota both tested negative for LCMV. But three

other transplant patients tested positive for the virus, strongly

suggesting the donor was the source. That was the only thing in

common the recipients had, said James Kazmierczak, an epidemiologist

for the Wisconsin Department of Health and family services. About 5

percent of mice, hamsters and other rodents carry LCMV and about 2

percent of the general public has antibodies to it, meaning they've

been exposed to it at some point, Kazmierczak said. The virus

usually causes little or no illness in healthy people, but can be

deadly for those with weak immune systems like cancer patients and

transplant recipients, who take immune-suppressing drugs to keep

them from rejecting their new organs. Organs are routinely tested

for many viruses but there is no commercial test for LCMV. The CDC,

state health officials , the Food and Drug administration and others

are investigating. Some sought to reassure people who need

transplants. Wisconsin officials said they made no public statements

in 2003 because of the tenuous evidence and because the virus

doesn't spread person to person and wasn't considered a public

health risk. A doctor who treated one of the New England organ

recipients said she didn't find out about the Wisconsin cases until

too late to save her patient's life. Dr. Staci Fischer, infectious

disease physician for the transplant group at Rhode Island Hospital,

discovered the infection in April, when two of her kidney transplant

patients develped flu-like symptoms. One survived, but the other did

not. Fischer said she searched medical literature and asked

colleagues around the country if they had heard of anything similar.

But it wasn't until she called the CDC that the connection to LCMV

and the donor's hamster was made. Two patients in Massachusetts one

a double lung recipient, the other a liver recipient also died

within weeks of the transplants, which were performed on April 10

and April 11, according to the Rhode Island Department of Health.

Two people who received corneas from the same Rhode Island woman in

operations outside the United States are being monitored for signs

of illness, said Kuehnert, who declined to say where the corneas

were sent. The donor's hamster, bought at a Petsmart store in

Warwick, R.I., tested positive for LCMV. Gail Mastrati, a

spokeswoman for the State Department of Environmental Management

said the agency removed 102 hamsters, mice and guinea pigs from the

store in the past week. The animals were euthanized and shipped to

the CDC in Atlanta, where all will be tested. Preliminary results

indicate two of the hamsters sent Friday to the cdc tested positive

for LCMV, she said. The CDC would not confirm the results. Petsmart

said it has asked suppliers of rodents to the War-wick store to test

their animals.

This is much more an issue of screening organs than of anything to do with hamster welfare. None of the animals involved in this case were ill, and 3 out of 102 animals positive for LCMV is less than the average 5 per cent cited earlier in the article.

Poor welfare in pet shops is by no way restricted to chain pet stores, and hamster mills supply smaller chains and independent pet stores as well as the big-name chains (at least in the UK). However obviously changing the habits of coporate chains would have a bigger impact.

Joan, I don't think there's any need to flounce about it with "Anyway, I've said my piece, and I will never ask for help from this forum on this topic again. Aparently convienience is more important than the big picture" that's a bit much! If you really are going to change the way things are surely the chain pet stores such as Petsmart are going to have to be a big part of that, you're going to have to work with them to improve things, can you afford to be so set against them?

Candace makes good points about more information about hamster mills.

SnuggleHam

06-01-2005, 06:42 PM

Interesting Post Emma, I think its sad they has to euthanized so many animals, I don’t see why they couldn’t just test for the Virus in live animals. Maybe they were worried about it having already spread to the other animals.

Wow 102 animals from the one pets store! Usually they have about three Syrian hamster tanks with about three or four in each at the most, one or two tanks with four dwarfs and maybe a few gerbils and a guinea big or chinchilla, they must keep a bunch of animals in the back. I do know they buy some of their birds young and keep them in the back and hand rear them themselves to make them tame (you can charge more if they are tame) :P

I was never worried that I could catch LCMV, I figured the deaths had allot to do with the trauma of an operation for one and for second, having a low immune system at the time. The only people I figure would catch it are elderly or very young children, with low immune systems as stated in the article. At lest Petsmart said it has asked suppliers of rodents to the War-wick store to test their animals.

Like Joan points out it originates with the breeders, they obviously aren’t breeding for the best selection or healthy stock. So they should be held accountable. Maybe this will cause more awareness in the care and health of animals and it may cause standards to be increased somehow in the wellness and testing for viruses in rodents ect.

Coco1

06-01-2005, 06:45 PM

Wanda, To be able to fight this thing in the right way, however that is done in the end, being short with others is not going to accomplish your goal.

We were simply stating a FACT, that some petsmarts do indeed carry Veterinary clinics. That is all. Some petsmarts are good, very good, and you yourself say that the problems start at the Mills. Granted, some, maybe many pet stores are disgracefull and I totally agree with Linda Price on the fact that maybe pet stores should not carry the animals themselves but refer people to breeders and continue to sell the supplies for them which is where they make their money anyway. And then you have all those animals that ARE put up for adoption THROUGH the pet stores. Many animals get their second chance through Petsmarts adoptive programs.

I'm not saying I absolutely LOVE petsmart and they do have their downsides. I am happy with the stores by ME. I do not like the Petco by me. This is going to vary nation wide & from one store to the next. Again, in agreement with you many problems arise with the mills.

I did read the links but it did take me a while before I was able to get to reading them as I'm sure is the case with others. Out of all of the info I have read on any of this Linda price gave the best info in a controlled, straightforward, lay it on the table manner. Sometimes to gain the most benefit emotions need to be kept in check. It doesn't mean you're not passionate about what you are fighting for but I'm sure you will gain more interest from people in this forum regarding this subject if you do not label them as un-caring quite so quickly. As I type this I'm sure many are reading more about the subject from the links you forwarded. It is their desision as to what they do with the info and as to whether they are able to help any futher. I too was unaware of the problems regarding the mills but almost chose not to read more about any of it because of your attitude toward the forum. Don't annoy those whom you're trying to ask for help. Remember, the most caring hamster people out there are probably the people who frequent these forums.

If you have more info on your progress, give it to us. Let us decide if its something we can / should help with. The more people read about it, the more they know, then the more they'll be willing to help if they can. This may be the first time many of us have heard about any of this. Many will also research this silently on their own rather than just taking opinions from one side or person.

I truly wish you luck with your endevour. Its going to be a tough fight.

Coco1

06-01-2005, 06:53 PM

Thanks for the info Emma, very good.

afishcalledwanda

06-01-2005, 07:04 PM

Joan there is no need to get all upset at us. You seem to know what you’re talking about yet you had clearly stated quite boldly "Petsmart has no vet offices in any stores nation wide. Why would they tell anyone this I don't know other than to simply shut them up." and it just happened that you were wrong and a few of us had seen Petsmart franchises that in fact did have veterinary offices.

OK, fine a few have veterinary offices. Unfortunately, that is not really the point of the whole picture. It's the abuse these stores enable.

I understand that this all broke loose from a Petsmart, further more the one I regularly visit, and although it has happened there, their cages are always kept nice and clean, the animals there are fed lab blocks and do have water bottles.

You have never been able to see the back holding area have you? I doubt it. I doubt they will let you. If they do, first off, I would be surprised, and secondly, that would be a rare thing. It would also show they have nothing to hide, but, I will remain skeptical.

I used to not be a huge fan of Petco but its recently been renovated and all their animals are fed lab blocks and they use water bottles, there are wheels and sleeping huts in their tanks. So from looking at their enclosures I know that they care for their pets while in the store. Where they get them from I really have no clue.

I used to think the same thing. Outward appearances can be deceiving.

"The one from RI is from Phoeniz Az" but I was told by an employee at the same store they came from Ohio, but maybe that was just in refer cane to their dwarf hamsters.

The location of the animals that they buy from at that particular store was printed in the news article. There were several articles and the RI Dept of Health also published that the hamsters are bought from Phoenix. They also confiscated all the stores animals, euthanized them and sent them off to the CDC for more testing. They also went to the mill where they are bred to test there.

What? do you really think I make this stuff up? I will never exaggerate for the sake of exaggeration. I don't make stuff up and I don't lie.

I have mixed feelings about it. On one hand, its realistically thinking to assume rodents must come from a place where they are obviously bred for profit. But then I have never seen any of these mills; I have no clue what goes on in there. You say they are kept in bad conditions and this and that which is probably true, But id have to see it for myself.

You will never see these things for yourself. They are easily concealed in basements, outbuildings etc. These people will not let you in to see the mess they keep these animals in. Did you even bother to read the links I posted? Linda Price described in detail what she witnessed first hand. I guess that doesn't count?

There is really no need to act bitter towards anyone here Joan. Nobody is condemning you for wanting to stop these mills and for not liking Petsmart and Petco, I think some of us just aren’t sure what to really think. I mean where is the proof they come from these places in AZ? Do you perhaps have any more links about the mills in particular, any pictures of the mills, anything like that?

That was the whole point in my asking for help to begin with. I need pictures of the mills, the horrors etc. I am looking for people with the stomach for this kind of stuff. I'm not bitter towards anyone, but if you feel I am bitter, then , so be it. I don't want to argue that point.

You can keep buying from these places. Emma posted links that had tons of info in the salmonella thread. I'll repost everything you need to know. I really think you should read these things before sticking up for them blindly and on outward appearances.

How can I help fight against something where everyone says something different? How do you know who’s right?

I am in close contact with a veterinarian at the CDC, Linda Price, the HSUS ( humane society of the united states) and the ASPCA. I would take their word as to what they have seen and know before any store selling for profit.

Now, I have nothing against the large stores selling supplies. That is fine. It is the selling of small animals that is the problem.

I am going to ask you to once again read LInda's posts in this thread:

Read Linda's description of mills here (http://www.petwebsite.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=26398&FORUM_ID=4&CAT_ID=3&Topic_Title=I+just+heard+something+disturbing%2E%2 E%2E%2E&Forum_Title=Dwarf+Hamsters+%2D+General/url)

Now, here is a better description of the USDA guidelines for keeping these animals that are in mills. These places are allowed to use their own veterinarians to send in a yearly report. Don't you think that in itself is a bit lienient?

USDA Guidelines for breeders (http://www.geocities.com/calhamassoc/QandAUSDA.html/url)

Animal Welfare Act (http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ac/awa.html/url)

Make sure to click on all the word links in the body of the text. They will take you to charts linking the mills.

CDC paper (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5417a3.htm/url)

Now, Candace, don't take this the wrong way, but I honestly don't think you have the constitution to help in this kind of situation. Some people are simply not made to do this kind of work. That's ok, there are others like me, who do have the constitution for this stuff.

Now, what you are wrong about is trying to lighten up what I'm saying because there could/would have been others who may have wanted to help. If you are so concerend about the information I provide, try doing your own INDEPEDNENT research. Don't go to petsmart and ask them. Find neutral sources. There are many out there.

If your petsmart is one of the few, and I will say few, gems out there, why don't you ask them to stop buying from mills? Why not ask them to bring in animals from the shelter along with the dogs and cats that come in on the weekends? Why not ask them to fight corporate? I'll bet they won't.

I was involved in the public exposure of the puppy and kitten mill fiasco some years ago. We picketed stores, had informational fun shows and breed exhibits in malls and strip mall parking lots. We had information booths set up at shelters willing to let us do that. We were able to get pictures and all kinds of horrid stuff. We took out ads in the papers, magazines and tv. Sometimes it got ugly. Often the more passionate folks never bothered to get permission from the proper sourced for picketing the stores and wound up with a trip to the police station. But, that was rare. Eventually, most of the stores stopped selling puppies and kittens. They were replaced with local shelter volunteers trying to place dogs and cats into good homes. You see them every weekend in all the Petsmarts. Now, instead of selling hamsters, guinea pigs, mice, rats, gerbils etc, why not , since the shelter is there anyway, bring along the 'pocket pets' that need re homing as well?

I will tell you why not. Somebody is always in somebody else's pocket somewhere along the line.

I had a long talk with a very nice woman at the HSUS on Friday. She was on her way to a meeting with the legislative branch of the orginization to try to get the AWA (animal welfare act) beefed up.

She also informed me there are NO humane laws for ANY animal on a federal or national level. It is a state by state thing. But since the AWA is federal, and the USDA has guidelines for breeders, these things need to be modernized and the inspection process needs to actually take place.

I have many friends that breed dogs and are licensed with the USDA as breeders. They have been licensed for many years. They have yet to see an inspector. They are supposed to be inspected 2x a year, on surprise. Now, if they aren't inspecting dogs and cats, do you really think they are going to bother with hamsters and other small pets? The veterinary inspection is only for 'health checks' and that is from their own veterinarians. That is a little too close to home for me. An outside independent vet should be the one to give health checks.

This thing with the hamsters and other 'pocket pets' will be much harder to organize and put into effect. There is no nation wide association like specific breed groups like dogs and cats have. There is no national registry like the AKC, CFA or UKC. There is no one to back up the small pets. There is no network in this country. Do you know why it is so hard to find a veterinarian who is comfortable and qualified to treat these pets? I'll tell you. It's because they are still considered lab animals in most veterinary schools and the vets have to do extensive additional education on their own to help these little animals. This was told to me by my vet. I went through 3 vets before finding one for my hamsters.

So, maybe you get upset when I voice my opinion. Sorry. But you and your very accepting approach of their practices have just made things that much harder for me.

SnuggleHam

06-01-2005, 07:51 PM

I understand that this all broke loose from a Petsmart, further more the one I regularly visit, and although it has happened there, their cages are always kept nice and clean, the animals there are fed lab blocks and do have water bottles.

You have never been able to see the back holding area have you? I doubt it. I doubt they will let you. If they do, first off, I would be surprised, and secondly, that would be a rare thing. It would also show they have nothing to hide, but, I will remain skeptical.

No I have never been in the back of a Petsmart before, perhaps next time I’m there I will ask and if they wont let me Ill give them a hard time. Perhaps that would also be a good time to get a manager out and ask then questions about the animals and where they come from ect..

I used to not be a huge fan of Petco but its recently been renovated and all their animals are fed lab blocks and they use water bottles, there are wheels and sleeping huts in their tanks. So from looking at their enclosures I know that they care for their pets while in the store. Where they get them from I really have no clue.

I used to think the same thing. Outward appearances can be deceiving.

I can certainly agree with that,

"The one from RI is from Phoeniz Az" but I was told by an employee at the same store they came from Ohio, but maybe that was just in refer cane to their dwarf hamsters.

The location of the animals that they buy from at that particular store was printed in the news article. There were several articles and the RI Dept of Health also published that the hamsters are bought from Phoenix. They also confiscated all the stores animals, euthanized them and sent them off to the CDC for more testing. They also went to the mill where they are bred to test there.

What? do you really think I make this stuff up? I will never exaggerate for the sake of exaggeration. I don't make stuff up and I don't lie.,

See what I mean it’s hard to know what’s right and what wrong when you hear all kind of different stories. In Linda’s article she states that sometimes they can be shipped a few time between middlemen, that could be why I was told they came from Ohio. I never wanted to conclude that you were a liar, but as you can probably clearly tell I am very much less experienced and knowledgably about this stuff, I am a “newbie” asking questions and questioning.

Did you even bother to read the links I posted? Linda Price described in detail what she witnessed first hand. I guess that doesn't count?

yes I did read the post and I in fact just read it over again to refresh my memory and to make sure I didn’t miss anything.

I need pictures of the mills, the horrors etc. I am looking for people with the stomach for this kind of stuff. I'm not bitter towards anyone, but if you feel I am bitter, then , so be it. I don't want to argue that point.

I see, well I wish I was able to get some picture ect and help out somehow. Unfortunately I don’t have a car and am stuck at home all day while my husband works, But nest time In Rhode island Warwick I will stop there and talk with a manager and see what info I can get out of them to find out more. As for your being bitter, I’m sure if you re read your post you could understand how we took you as being upset or bitter with us. But if your not then I believe your not. Its not easy understanding where a person is coming from emotionally just reading text.

These places are allowed to use their own veterinarians to send in a yearly report. Don't you think that in itself is a bit lienient?

Yes I do think that it is.

As for the text links it doesn’t seem that any of them can be found.

USDA Guidelines for breeders takes me to a not found yahoo page

Animal Welfare Act We are sorry, but the document you have requested does not exist on this server. This error can also be caused by mistyping the address of a web page (URL)

CDC paper The page you requested cannot be found at this time. It may be temporarily unavailable or it may have been removed.

Can you please check the code on the links or post new links.

Now, Candace, don't take this the wrong way, but I honestly don't think you have the constitution to help in this kind of situation. Some people are simply not made to do this kind of work. That's ok, there are others like me, who do have the constitution for this stuff.

Now, what you are wrong about is trying to lighten up what I'm saying because there could/would have been others who may have wanted to help.

I honestly can’t get out and go places or locations because as previously stated I don’t have transportation. I will probably do a bit of research myself, but not because I think the information you have provided is fulse, I don’t want you to think that.

I was not trying to “lighten” up anything you were saying, as I said, I am sort of a “newbie” ignorant to this information asking questions and questioning. I don’t see how anything I have posted will deter anyone from trying to help out if they are inspired to, no where in my posts have I said you were wrong in anything. Or it was wrong to investigate these large chain pet stores and their small animal providers.

If your petsmart is one of the few, and I will say few, gems out there, why don't you ask them to stop buying from mills? Why not ask them to bring in animals from the shelter along with the dogs and cats that come in on the weekends? Why not ask them to fight corporate? I'll bet they won't.

Because I agree they probably will not listen to me, If its graphic images you need then I guess I cant help as I have no connections or anything. But if there is something you think I may be able to do to help, even as just another "little" person concerned for our furry friends, sometimes mass complaints can make changes you know.

So, maybe you get upset when I voice my opinion. Sorry. But you and your very accepting approach of their practices have just made things that much harder for me.

I am not upset with you at all in anyway shape or form, I congratulate you for such persistence in what you believe is right and for trying to get it done. You have every right to voice your opinion; I just felt you were being a bit hard by your comment of

"Anyway, I've said my piece, and I will never ask for help from this forum on this topic again. Aparently convienience is more important than the big picture."

You make it sound like non of us care and I feel you are making the judgment way to soon, this has only just be posted not that long ago here and people are also busy with other things and also with this issue I feel they are probably formulating their ides on the subject before making any decisions on whether they feel they can help or not. Or as Coco1 suggested “This may be the first time many of us have heard about any of this. Many will also research this silently on their own rather than just taking opinions from one side or person.”

I never said I was accepting of any one approach I was merely asking questions and questioning “thinking out loud” perhaps you might call it. And I fail to see how iv made it any more harder for you, in fact its probably made more people intrigued, I now it has for me.

afishcalledwanda

06-01-2005, 08:13 PM

Candace, I will repost all the links here. Maybe I did something wrong when I inserted them. They all work. I checked before posting them. The yahoo page for the USDA guidelines is a shortcut to an article written by Linda Price which has the exact same information as the USDA site only much easier to find.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ac/awa.html

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ac/publications.html

http://www.geocities.com/calhamassoc/QandAUSDA.html

The CDC link seems to be bad. Emma sent that one in this forum on the salmonella thread.

Try this

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5417a3.htm

Now, as for anyone doing ANYTHING now, PLEASE DON'T! I am doing this in a very organized way with the governing bodies of the humane organizations and anyone that can legislatively do anything. I will need people in the FUTURE. PLEASE do not go asking anything from these stores. This will only alert them that something is brewing. And another setback for me. I am hoping I can get the media, when it's time, to do all the dirty work.

DO NOT ask them to give you information on mills and ask for pictures. PLEASE.

All I was asking in the way of help is for those willing to help to say so, and wait for further instruction. This is something that has to be done in an organized way, systematically and without anyone going off willy nilly and God forbid, PETA getting wind of this. If PETA gets involved, the whole thing becomes a joke. My efforts will have been all for nothing. Besides, PETA financially supports terrorist orginazations. They are a cult. and are extreme. I can back any PETA accusation with facts and figures, and names. Ever notice whenever they are in the news lately, they are only being mocked? Want to know how many animals they have killed themselves and keep in a walk in freezer in their headquarters for making their movies? I can go on and on.

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear about how the help is to be organized. This is something that will take time and patience.

Emma

06-01-2005, 11:34 PM

Just a few points, I'm too tired to reply properly to all points! (and I think people have been posting since I hit "reply")

Interesting Post Emma, I think its sad they has to euthanized so many animals, I don’t see why they couldn’t just test for the Virus in live animals. Maybe they were worried about it having already spread to the other animals.

They likely would want to culture tissue from various organs, difficult in a live animal! It's not like the CDC people just want to kill the cute little hammies.

Do you know why it is so hard to find a veterinarian who is comfortable and qualified to treat these pets? I'll tell you. It's because they are still considered lab animals in most veterinary schools and the vets have to do extensive additional education on their own to help these little animals. This was told to me by my vet. I went through 3 vets before finding one for my hamsters

Point 1 - hamsters are lab animals. And please don't read lab animals = automatically poor welfare.

Point 2 - things have changed hugely in recent years, hamsters are now covered in every veterinary school that I know (granted I'm in a different country from you). Perhaps not in as much detail as common disorders in dogs for example, but that's because (favourite vet saying:) "common things are common", hamsters simply aren't seen that often in practice, and when they are owners are often not willing to spend money to diagnose and treat the animal. Just like any other specialist area (and there are dozens of them) some things you educate yourself about. There's no way that you can learn all there is about being a vet in 5 years at university. Dentists spend 5 years learning about one part of one species, we're expected to know everything about every species! Vets are continually learning throughout their careers (or the good ones are anyway).

I'd bet you'd have to search to find a vet who knew about treating iguanas, or who could perform complex orthopaedic operations. We all have our own areas of interest or specialisation. There is A LOT of things they don't teach you at veterinary school.

*yawn* I'm so sleepy, but I finished my written exams today! Now off to collapse in a heap.......

Coco1

06-06-2005, 10:25 PM

I'd bet you'd have to search to find a vet who knew about treating iguanas, or who could perform complex orthopaedic operations. We all have our own areas of interest or specialisation. There is A LOT of things they don't teach you at veterinary school.

*yawn* I'm so sleepy, but I finished my written exams today! Now off to collapse in a heap.......

You're absolutely right regarding the other exotic pets and even the not so exotic pets. Hamsters will never be as common as cats and dogs and even if they were, unfortunately they don't have the same "value" placed upon them by many people out there who would not think to take a hamster to the vet, or even recognize WHEN the hamster needs medical attention. Its sad.

Emma - congrats on your exams, hope they all come out well! Now - go have yourself a nice cuppa and a chocolate biscuit! :lol:

babyboos

06-12-2005, 03:53 PM

Well done Emma you on holiday now? Have you got a placement for the summer yet?

Emma

06-13-2005, 04:30 AM

Yup I have a week with an exotics vet soon - that's just a bit of indulgence for me really - and in Aug/Sept am spending 5 weeks at my foster practice in Pembrokeshire, which is the placement I have to do for uni. Apart from that I'm spending some time dog-sitting for my parents, and moving house with all the stress and organisation that requires!

Its so nice to have finished exams though, and I pretty much know I've passed now too (if you fail you get called for moderating vivas, and I haven't had any). Official results are on Friday.

Coco1

06-13-2005, 08:07 AM

Well I'm sure thats a big relief Emma! :D

SnuggleHam

06-13-2005, 08:23 AM

Stopped at the Petsmart in Warwick Rhode Island this weekend and they still have no rodents available, all the cages are cleaned and empty. Apparently they are still testing and they didnt seem to know when they would get more rodents in..

I havnt heard anything on the news since..

Emma

06-13-2005, 12:05 PM

I wonder if it will have hit their sales figures at all, not carrying livestock for a while......maybe it won't affect their sales figures and someone might see it's not necessary for them to sell livestock.....ever hopeful!

babyboos

06-13-2005, 02:43 PM

I don't imagine they make a huge deal from the hamsters - they are a way to sell all the ancillaries such as cages etc - that is where they will be feeling it :twisted:

Is this store one of those directly related to the actual deaths or just part of the same chain?

I feel the same as you Emma but I doubt they will take the decision to stop selling them anymore - plus we do need to remember that they are the only place many people can buy a hamster from - there is no well established breeder network in any country - even here in the UK there are just a few large concentrations. I get enquiries from Shetland to London looking for hamsters.

I wish more people would consider contacting a rescue when looking for a hamster. Did you see the story about the escaped hamsters in Northern England who were left to breed to over 130 in number behind the walls of a council flat. The RSPCA is now shipping them to various centres across the country so please, please, please consider giving one of these little fluff balls a chance :cry: