Have I done everything?

[Holly]

As many of you know we will shortly be attempting to breed a litter of BEC Syrians from Caramel and (Souffle and Pophammy's) Paws.

I have done my research re genetics (I know both hamsters are of good type, their genetic histories etc) and the actual mating (Paws is coming to stay with us so that we don't have to travel with Caramel). We already have three definite homes plus two probable ones. I'm hoping that we do have any babies left that need homes Paws and Caramel's will be enough to find them homes at a show or with hamster hobbyists. I don't really want to go down the petshop line, though we do have a local petshop that cannot get enough hamsters to meet demand. I would just like to "vet" prospective owners myself.

I have a vet with emergency phone numbers (plus souffle's phone number), several spare cages and I know what food to give, bedding/cage to use, to remove the wheel etc etc. Anything else?

I'm also very aware that Caramel will need peace and quiet before, during and after the birth if the litter are to have the best chance of survival/good health. Caramel currently lives in our living room - obviously not the best place for her - as I'm currently in the process of turning the spare room into a "hamster room". My question is should I move her into the spare room now - will she be ok in a room with two dwarf hams and a male Syrian after the birth? it's definitely the quietest room in the house (unless I move her to my bedroom?). I presume I shouldn't be moving her when she's close to the birth? Any advice?

Finally I shall try to get a good photo of Caramel tonight to post here. I haven't posted any pictures of her since she was about 8 weeks old and, due to unforseen circumstances (one show rained off and car troubles) I haven't been able to enter her into a show yet - Rotherham will be her first. Obviously I think she's gorgeous (!) and she does have parents who have both won BIS - but I suppose I just want someone more experienced than myself to tell me that she is suitable to breed from. I guess I'll know after Rotherham but I'd like a little advice now :wink:

Finally can any other breeders offer me any other advice - it will be gratefully received :)

[Holly]

For some reason I can't edit???

Forgot to say that Caramel is a LH BEC from Tristar (with very little non BEC in her pedigree) and Paws is a SH Satin BEC possibly carrying LH (from Carrington Hams, I believe - Souffle?). So we are expecting all BEC babies, some satin and hopefully some LH and LH satin - I'll be happy with a bunch of healthy babies of good type whatever their "hairstyle" is though!

I also ought to add a bit about my plans - I'm hoping that Caramel will be the start of my own "little hamstery" for showing and breeding. I only plan to do this on a small scale, with probably two litters a year, as my son and I love to get the hamsters out every night and give them all some attention - something we couldn't do if we have hammies in double figures. I'm setting up the spare room (just need a bit more shelving and some more storage) and we hope to develop a good quality cream line for showing first. I also have aspirations in the Sable direction - as this is a good colour to go with BEC I'll probably stick with this for now.

Again - any tips from the experts welcome!

[pophammy]

Paws is a Custard Hamstery, Holly ~ we bred him ourselves! His father is from Craftyskill and his mum was from Carrington. I would move her to the spare room as soon as you can so as to be sure she is settled in there. I would not have the other hams in the room at the same time as this may disturb her. Also if you are planning on removing the platform in her cage (so you can see the babies better etc.) (she's in a Gabber Rex right?) I would do it pretty soon so she is used to it not being there as we had to leave Bailey's as she had a complete 'furry' fit when we tried to remove it!!!

It is likely that Paws may be carrying cinnamon, so you might get some of them in the litter. We think he is carrying longhair as he is pretty fluffy for a SH satin!

On Paws' family tree ~
Nelson (BEC SH)(Dad)'s parents were a REC banded SH (Dad) and a BEC SH(Mum)
Nelson's grandparents were on the father's side unknown and on the mother's side BEC SH and BEC LH, which is where Nel got the longhair gene before. Nel doesn't carry banded from his dad or else he would have been a band.

Bailey (Mum)(cinnamon satin SH)'s parents were BE golden Satin SH (Dad) and BE Golden SH (Mum).
Bailey's grandparents were on the father's side BEC satin SH and BE Golden SH and on the mother's side BE Golden SH and BE Golden SH, so the cinnamon and the longhair have obviously been carried back further than we have records on our pedigrees for!!!

Cream is a good colour to show with as they tend to deepen with age and improve, and they can be shown for quite a long time. Sables, however, can be tricky as you can only show them for a short time as when they get to about 9 months they start to go 'brown' and lose points, however we do love the colour (we got two in a litter between two petshop hams ~ a BEC banded and a golden)!

You are sensible not to want to keep too many hams as it is easy to get carried away and it is not fair for them not to get the attention and care they deserve as pets. I wouldn't like mine to sit in a shed all day long and not get played with (like some show hams do). With regards to breeding Caramel there is no doubt that she has a brilliant pedigree, and will be suitable to breed from. Whether her breeder would recommend Paws as a husband I doubt (!) but that is your choice and our hams definitely have excellent temperaments which we think is just as important as type. Paws in very excited now at the thought of getting 'married'!!! Many breeders will sell on their females as pets after one or two litters, but to us a ham is not just for showing but is mainly a pet and a ham to us is a ham for life. When they are 'retired' they still get as much love and attention as the other hams and we would never sell them on to a new owner.

[Holly]

Paws is a Custard Hamstery, Holly ~ we bred him ourselves! His father is from Craftyskill and his mum was from Carrington.

Oops - I knew that! I meant that either Bailey or Nelson were from Carrington as I thought I remembered souffle telling me.

I would move her to the spare room as soon as you can so as to be sure she is settled in there. I would not have the other hams in the room at the same time as this may disturb her. Also if you are planning on removing the platform in her cage (so you can see the babies better etc.) (she's in a Gabber Rex right?) I would do it pretty soon so she is used to it not being there as we had to leave Bailey's as she had a complete 'furry' fit when we tried to remove it!!!

I think, in that case, I'll put her in my room quite soon then and let her get used to it. I wouldn't be able to move all of the other hams out of the spare room as I'd struggle for somewhere cat-proof to keep all the cages. Is it definitely wrong to have other hams in the room with her - even if she's used to them? I was planning to get another shelf unit next week and move her in with them then.

I'm not going to take the shelf out. Yes I'd like to see the babies but I'm not even going to try to. I think she loves her nest under the shelf and I don't want to upset her by taking it away.

It is likely that Paws may be carrying cinnamon, so you might get some of them in the litter. We think he is carrying longhair as he is pretty fluffy for a SH satin!

Brilliant!

Regarding family trees, I'd like to keep proper records right from the start - any tips on layout of "pedigree" sheets? Caramel's from Tristar looks good to me so I was thinking of going with that - I could copy it and post it here, if that helps??

Many breeders will sell on their females as pets after one or two litters, but to us a ham is not just for showing but is mainly a pet and a ham to us is a ham for life. When they are 'retired' they still get as much love and attention as the other hams and we would never sell them on to a new owner.

I totally agree - to me they are much loved pets and I'd never "get rid" of any of them once their "useful" life is over - ours are for life as well, it's a small thing to do for an animal that gives so much happiness.

Thanks for the detailed reply 8)

I've got some piccies now:

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o209/Holly_Day/IMG_5076.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o209/Holly_Day/IMG_5073.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o209/Holly_Day/IMG_5081.jpg

The rest are blurry but give an idea of her shape and coat:

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o209/Holly_Day/IMG_5068.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o209/Holly_Day/IMG_5066.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o209/Holly_Day/IMG_5055.jpg

I know it's hard from pictures but what does she look like? She has a slightly paler area on her nose - I think it's where she chews the bars on the roof of her cage ( :roll: ) ...she doesn't do it as much anymore and it does seem to be darkening like the rest of her coat. It's not as obvious when you see her in the flesh but it looks quite obvious in the photos.....

[pophammy]

Aww!!! She is a beautiful young lady. Paws is packing his bags and wants to meet her! She looks very similar to our Red who is a REC and is Paws' sister, but for a REC Red is very dark, as red eyes are normally lighter than black eyes. Red's eyes and ears are almost black, and she is always being judged as a Black Eye! :lol: I am sure that Caramel will do brilliantly at shows.

I don't think its wrong to have other hams in the room with her, but I personally wouldn't as I wouldn't want smells/noises/movements etc. from the other hams upsetting her and her litter. I think it is probably the best idea to keep the shelf in. Bailey raised her litter fine with it in and the babies came wriggling out pretty promptly!

The family trees we have had from breeders vary greatly. Some set it out as a proper tree with lines going to the ancestors, whilst others just list them. I think the choice is really yours. We also make pedigrees for our litters ~ we will bring a copy of Paws' and a family tree when he comes to stay. We put the ham's pedigree name (the name we give it), a space where the new owner can put the Pet name, it's colour, eye colour, sex, mother/father's name and colour, no. in litter, date of birth, and pics of it, and parents. It is up to you what you put on your pedigrees really.

Also from the pics, I see she has a lilac wodent wheel. So does Paws!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: They must have been made for each other :oops: :P :lol: :roll:

[pophammy]

By the way, loads of breeders keep the females in with the other hams when they have babies, I know Sheryl at Carrington brings the mums indoors from her ham shed to give birth and raise their pups.

Oops ~ forgot to say Red is a longhair and it won't let me edit! Red also has a small lighter patch on her nose. I don't know if it is because the fur is shorter because she does not chew the bars (though she used to). :? Here are a few pics of Red so you can see the similarity.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y113/Pophammy/redsm-6.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y113/Pophammy/rednpumpkin41106071sm-1.jpg

[Holly]

Aww!!! She is a beautiful young lady. Paws is packing his bags and wants to meet her! She looks very similar to our Red who is a REC and is Paws' sister, but for a REC Red is very dark, as red eyes are normally lighter than black eyes. Red's eyes and ears are almost black, and she is always being judged as a Black Eye! :lol: I am sure that Caramel will do brilliantly at shows.

Thanks Pophammy - it's kind of hard to tell yourself when you have minimal experience. We (obviously!) think she's beautiful and it isn't easy to be impartial. She's only just over 4 months old now so I guess she still has a bit of maturing to do. I'm guessing she'll get darker - we saw both of her parents at the Hoyland show when we picked her up and they were both quite dark (and absolutely HUGE though I know Tristar hamsters don't have wheels so they tend to be a bit bigger).

I don't think its wrong to have other hams in the room with her, but I personally wouldn't as I wouldn't want smells/noises/movements etc. from the other hams upsetting her and her litter. I think it is probably the best idea to keep the shelf in. Bailey raised her litter fine with it in and the babies came wriggling out pretty promptly!

Do you think sharing a room with me will bother her? The only other alternative is the spare room with the others (Not Treacle and Custard as they live downstairs).

The family trees we have had from breeders vary greatly. Some set it out as a proper tree with lines going to the ancestors, whilst others just list them. I think the choice is really yours. We also make pedigrees for our litters ~ we will bring a copy of Paws' and a family tree when he comes to stay. We put the ham's pedigree name (the name we give it), a space where the new owner can put the Pet name, it's colour, eye colour, sex, mother/father's name and colour, no. in litter, date of birth, and pics of it, and parents. It is up to you what you put on your pedigrees really.

I'll make a copy of Caramel's for you as well (I think I told Souffle I'd do it ages ago :oops: )....I look forward to seeing yours before I make a template for ours.


Also from the pics, I see she has a lilac wodent wheel. So does Paws!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: They must have been made for each other :oops: :P :lol: :roll:

Now you mention it I think souffle has said this before - there you go then - it must be fate :wink:

Red is absolutely stunning 8)
I know she's done well in shows - was there a reason you didn't breed from her? She'll be an Auntie now :wink:

[pophammy]

Yes, creams tend to darken with age, so I am sure she will turn out a lovely lady. Paws thinks so anyway! :lol:

I don't think she would be bothered about sharing a room with you as long as she isn't disturbed too much. As I said before lots of breeders keep pregnant and litter-raising females in rooms with other hams so you could put her in your spare room with the others.

I would have LOVED to have bred Red but BigD wouldn't let us :roll: :( :roll: :( !!! I am sure she would have made an excellent mother as she is a big softie. She is a bit old now (though she still does the occasional 'tail uppie'!) so we will just have to rely on Paws and Caramel to continue on Nelson and Bailey's line!

[Holly]

I don't think she would be bothered about sharing a room with you as long as she isn't disturbed too much. As I said before lots of breeders keep pregnant and litter-raising females in rooms with other hams so you could put her in your spare room with the others.

I'll have a think about it next week when I get the shelving and sort out the room. She is used to being near other hams downstairs and she also knows them all by smell as we tend to have them all running round the living room in their balls and get them out individually. Whatever I'm doing I need to decide soon as I want her to be well settled before her new hubbi arrives!

I would have LOVED to have bred Red but BigD wouldn't let us :roll: :( :roll: :( !!! I am sure she would have made an excellent mother as she is a big softie. She is a bit old now (though she still does the occasional 'tail uppie'!) so we will just have to rely on Paws and Caramel to continue on Nelson and Bailey's line!

Indeed - and it's pretty exciting now it's getting nearer. Will and I have worked hard over the summer getting caramel as tame as possible (though it's not really work!) and she's very used to us and quite laid back now.

Here's her pedigree sheet just so you can see the layout (I'll make a copy for you in time for Rotherham):

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o209/Holly_Day/IMG_5087.jpg

[Basia]

Caramel looks absolutely lovely in her photos Holly, I am sure she and Paws will breed lovely babies. :)
Looking at your pedigree, Caramel's grandfather is Berry's father!

[Spuds Mum]

ooo Holly - and Caramel's father Zimbali is also Butterbean my LH REC's father - she was born on 13th March - so he must have had a busy few weeks by the sound of it! He is also the grandfather of the new boy LH cream satin from Carrington's that I collect at Rotherham. It would be interesting to know how many babies he has had in all - it sounds like he has quite a few!

[Holly]

Gosh it's a close knit world this hamster breeding! I knew about the family connection with your hamsters, Basia - well the breeder connection - but not yours Spud!

I saw Zimbali at the last show I went to - he is HUGE!

[pophammy]

Aww, it seems that everyone's hammies are related! :lol: :lol: :lol: I am sure that Paws and Caramel will be proud to have Butterbean as an Auntie! :lol: :lol:

[Spuds Mum]

Auntie Butterbean - that has a nice ring to it! =D> I have asked her and she would be very proud to have a new half sister and a lot of nephews and nieces in the making! :lol:

[Holly]

That's interesting - is she coming to Rotherham so I can have a look at her? (Or does she have a litter - I can't quite remember? :oops: )

[Holly]

Just a quick question for the experienced breeders - Will and I have noticed the past couple of weeks that Caramel isn't standing like she has been doing - she's always been regular as clockwork every four days. I'm assuming this is because Autumn is upon us (typical just as Paws is coming to stay)......is she likely to stand later at night now? We get the hams out between 7.30 and 9.30 pm.

[pophammy]

Yes it is most likely because of Autumn coming closer. She will probably stand later on at night, maybe 9:30 ish. You are best to get the scent of the males on your hands and let her sniff, then rub her back. If she does a half-hearted stand you are best to leave it for half an hour or so and try her later. We also find that the females are less regular as they get older ~ ours have more or less stopped doing it now, though they do have the occasional night when they will! :lol:

[Spuds Mum]

That's interesting - is she coming to Rotherham so I can have a look at her? (Or does she have a litter - I can't quite remember? :oops: )

She's just been separated from her litter so won't be at the show - but here are a couple of photos (including one of her with Auntie Caramel's nephews and nieces!). I tried to take some new ones this morning but she would not play! So here are a couple of the older ones -
[/img]http://www.madabouthamsters.com/misc/butterbean.jpg

http://www.madabouthamsters.com/misc/butterbean_and_babies.jpg

[Spuds Mum]

Sorry for some reason it wont allow me to edit! here are the photos:


http://www.madabouthamsters.com/misc/butterbean.jpg

http://www.madabouthamsters.com/misc/butterbean_and_babies.jpg

[Basia]

She is gorgeous, that is such a great photo with the babies. :D

[Holly]

Oh she is absolutely gorgeous! I'm hoping for a REC in Caramel's litter - as Paws is probably carrying Cinnamon hopefully we'll get one (I am right about that aren't I - I'm at work and don't have my genetics stuff to check :oops: ).

Now I've seen her I want one even more!


Yes it is most likely because of Autumn coming closer. She will probably stand later on at night, maybe 9:30 ish. You are best to get the scent of the males on your hands and let her sniff, then rub her back. If she does a half-hearted stand you are best to leave it for half an hour or so and try her later.

I'll try that then. I was really happy that it was so obvious when she's on heat - much safer for Paws - but I'll try much later and see how we go.

[pophammy]

Awwwww, I love that pic with the babies! Sooo cute! :P :lol:

I am sure it will be obvious when she is on heat, it always is with our girls and I'm sure it is just because of the Autumn that she is getting later.

[souffle]

Awwww that is such a gorgeous picture. She looks as if she is smiling with pleasure there. She is beautiful. :lol:

[Holly]

Good news, I got caramel out after 9.30 pm last night and tonight and handled her immediately after Moxy - and she stood tonight :)

That means next Tuesday should be the big night for her and Paws - eek! It's exciting and nerve-wracking all at the same time - and that's just for the humans involved :P

[Spuds Mum]

Oh she is absolutely gorgeous! I'm hoping for a REC in Caramel's litter - as Paws is probably carrying Cinnamon hopefully we'll get one (I am right about that aren't I - I'm at work and don't have my genetics stuff to check :oops: ).

Now I've seen her I want one even more.

Hi Holly, I think there is a good chance you may get a REC because as you say(though I am learning all the time about genetics and am still v much a novice), Paws should be carrying cinnamon from Bailey, and as Butterbean and caramel had the same Dad, and BB is REC then it looks like Zimbali may possibly have given Caramel a cinnamon too. Hope you are lucky and get one, but whatever you get I am sure that they will be gorgeous as both Mum and Dad are aren't they? Glad she is still in the mood - look out paws on Tuesday - hope he has lots of energy!! :lol:

[Holly]

Hi Holly, I think there is a good chance you may get a REC because as you say(though I am learning all the time about genetics and am still v much a novice), Paws should be carrying cinnamon from Bailey, and as Butterbean and caramel had the same Dad, and BB is REC then it looks like Zimbali may possibly have given Caramel a cinnamon too.

That would be brilliant (although I'll be delighted with a bunch of healthy babies really)......how hard is it going to be to decide who to keep :shock:

[souffle]

Well if she carries cinnamon we might get some long haired cinnamon satins too!!! I'm not certain if Paws carries LH but by looking at him compared to his SH sisters I would say there is a good chance he does. We notice the LH carriers seem to have a thicker coat and have the odd long hair on the scent glands, at the back and behind the ears.

[Holly]

It really is incredibly exciting thinking what we might get - you would think that sticking two BEC's together would just get you BEC's - the fact that recessive genes pop up all over the place does make the whole thing VERY interesting.

We are probably going to keep two babies, maybe a male and a female (unless nobody wants our babies and we end up keeping nearly all of them!). I don't really have any colour/coat preferences though, as we have so few *show* hamsters it would maybe be nice to have two that would go in different classes ie a cream SH or SH satin and a cinnamon.

But, hey, this is all speculation, we'll have to wait and see. I just want them to be healthy and happy - and I must admit I feel the need to *vet* prospective owners that I don't know a bit - will that be ok??????

[babyboos]

what a beautiful picture

[Holly]

I actually can't stop looking at it!

Has everyone noticed the little guy with his nose and mouth just poking out from under his mummy doing a copy of her expression - that is about cutest thing I've ever seen :wink:

[souffle]

Spud's mum I think you should submit that pic for next months Calender as then everyone can have it on their wall :lol:

[Holly]

Spud's mum I think you should submit that pic for next months Calender as then everyone can have it on their wall :lol:

Definitely, that would be lovely :)

[Spuds Mum]

what a beautiful picture

Thanks guys - I have to say now the babies are 5 weeks old and one has already gone to a new Mummy (well vetted Holly!!) I also look at the photo and have a *pang*. I also love the fact that it looks like Butterbean is using one of her babies as a pillow.

[Holly]

I also look at the photo and have a *pang*. I also love the fact that it looks like Butterbean is using one of her babies as a pillow.

That's the bit I love 8)

Is it awful when they go? I'm worried I won't be able to let them (I remember that I cried each time one of my baby rabbits went to a new home :oops: )

[souffle]

Regardless of where they go they are still always 'your' babies. You were the one who saw them through their first days. We like to keep in touch with the new 'families' and if you offer them support they tend to keep in touch back and you know how the babies are doing. We had some sad news at the weekend in that the first of Bailey's litter has passed away. Tofu was a black eyed cream satin female. It just makes you realise that we have them for far to short a time and really must make the most of the time we share with our little furry friends. :(

[Basia]

Ah souffle, that is sad :(
It is hard when your babies go to their new homes but hopefully they will be loved a cared for. I was never afraid to vet my baby rabbit owners and would take rabbits back at any time if they no longer wanted them.
I will keep Chunky and Berry's breeder up to date with how they are and promised to send her photos of their babies, which I wll do (if I get any!!)

[Spuds Mum]

Is it awful when they go? I'm worried I won't be able to let them (I remember that I cried each time one of my baby rabbits went to a new home :oops: )

It can be sad, but when we know where the pups are going to and that they will be treated the way we would want them to be it is a lot easier. In our first litter 6 of our 11 babies went to close friends and we get regular updates and requests for advice.

The one that has gone from BBs litter was the runt and we part hand reared him. He had also hurt his arm, so we took a lot of time with him especially. I'm glad to know he has gone to a work colleague who I see daily. That makes it much easier!

[Holly]

Well one of ours is going to souffle/pophammy and another to a work colleague of mine - plus two will be staying with us. We have another two prospective homes - one with a firend of mine and one with a friend of souffle's so at least we'll know how some of them are getting on.

Sorry to hear about Tofu, Souffle, I remember the baby pics, she was beautiful.

[babyboos]

I love when someone on the forum gets one of my babies because then I get to see them really grow up and be on hand to help along the way if necessary
I always tell people who get hamsters from me about HamsterCentral too in the hope they join up, so I get to "keep in touch" with my babies

[Holly]

I always tell people who get hamsters from me about HamsterCentral too in the hope they join up, so I get to "keep in touch" with my babies

I shall do the same :)

I had a dream last night about someone really horrible turning up for one of my babies - when I told them they weren't available anymore they got nasty and I had to call the police!

Must be on mind..... :oops:

[Spuds Mum]

I had a dream last night about someone really horrible turning up for one of my babies - when I told them they weren't available anymore they got nasty and I had to call the police!

Must be on mind..... :oops:

I dream things like that all the time Holly - you are not alone. I've got some stuff going on with my staff at work and the other night I dreamt that I was having a big meeting telling them that some one would have to go because they didn't look after their hamsters well - and that I would decide by holding a hamster show :!: :!: :!:

Obsessed :?: Moi :?: :lol: