Dominant spotting - Lethal?

[DK Nadezhda's]

Well - Denmark ain't allways so updated :???:
I've allways learned, that dom spot + dom spot would be a lethal combination for the DsDs babies, and only the Dsds and dsds babies will be borned..

But how is it? is it "safe" to mate a dom spot with a dom spot and is it even possible to get these DsDs babies? or what? :confused:

[SnickersTheFirst]

I think Dom Spot carry the 'White Belly Gene' which makes it lethal. Babies do survive sometimes and they are born with no eyes and are pure white. I've heard of them being born with no teeth too? Normally 25% of the babies will be born this way.

Anophthalmic, or eyeless whites (http://www.hammysworld.com/index.php?p=eyeless)

Not all patterned hamsters will carry this gene but there's no way to tell if they do so it's best not to breed them.

[lisab]

With syrians it is not advised to mate dom spot to dom spot as they "could" carry the lethel gene. there is a chance that they couldnt carry it and you "could" have a healthy litter but then you "could" have eyeless whites. Its really not worth it just going on a could.

[souffle]

I don't think it is a lethal combination. It is not recommended as you can get eyeless whites should this gene be carried but eyeless white do not die in utero but are born viable. A double dose of Dominant spot would also be unlikely to produce as good a spotting pattern. Careful breeding has developed the Dominant spot Banded combination which is now standardised in the UK so this is a pattern to pattern mating however it is only done with animals who are known to be free from the Wh gene.
It is not the same situation as occurs with Light grey which is a lethal dominant. Light greys who get two light grey genes do indeed die in the womb. Having spoken to many breeders who have been breeding for long time I don't think the light grey still survives in the UK certainly. It is a weak mutation and the small litters plus other issues have really led it it dying out.

[Vectis Hamstery]

My understanding is that dominant spot in Chinese hamsters is different to that in Syrians as Chinese hamsters don't have the white bellied gene. I assume that the other posters are talking about the Syrian dominant spot pattern - and I agree with everything they have said about SYRIAN dominant spot x dominant spot matings.

DK, are you asking about the Chinese dominant spot pattern as this is on the Chinese board?

The rest of my answer is about the CHINESE dominant spot pattern and should not be applied to SYRIAN dominant spot matings.

Pia, as you mention DsDs is lethal in utero (like the Syrian light grey mutation that Souffle mentions) and so I have found these litters to be smaller. There is a 25% chance of getting normals and these, like in a dom spot/normal mating, tend to be pale.
Prior to carrying out Chinese dom spot matings, I spoke to several experienced UK exhibitors (probably about 50+ years of combined hamster experience!) about Chinese dom spot x dom spot and was advised that it was safe .

The theoretical genetic basis of black-eyed white hamsters from the Dutch line is that they are DsDs hamsters that have a 'special' Ds gene which means they don't die in utero. I personally haven't seen the figures for this and am only starting test matings with this gene (what I tend to refer to as Ds+ !). Black eyed whites have occasionally popped up in other lines but seemed to be infertile whereas those from this Dutch line are not.

I would be interested in any other information others may have, especially about DsDs/black eyed whites.

[SnickersTheFirst]

Oh, how silly that I didn't notice! I came on here through new posts so didn't even think about Chinese hamsters. :mad: haha Sorry for any confusion!

[DK Nadezhda's]

hmm interesting! I've just got a new dom spot chinese male - waiting to getting him home from a good friend! (3 more weeks - hardly can't wait!)

Here i Denmark we have extremely few dom spot (very few chinese at all!), and the pet stores import them mostly from Holland and Germany...

Maybe it should be tried out to see what happen, if I breeded this dom spot together in some generations and then out on agouti again... hmm it would take some planning :)

But the black eyed white is then presumed to be a different dom spot gene than the "normal" then?
hmmm what kind of dom spot I've got, is unsure - he is from a petstore who both buy from local "breeders" - or mostly import from Germany or Holland (Wholesalers)...

[souffle]

Oh yes I've just noticed that this is in Chinese section.
Ah then Vectis information is your best source regarding Chinese hamsters :)

[Vectis Hamstery]

Aw thanks, Souff :D

DK, a word of caution which isn't written in the hamster books. Mating a normal and a dom spot improves the colour of the brown spots on the dom spot animal to more like the mahogany that the NHC standard calls for. The problem is that any normals from this mating tend to be pale. In the UK the normal colour has become rather washed out since the introduction of dom spot animals because of this effect.
I let normals with any dominant spot parents go to pet homes, and keep a separate line of normals to try and get that lovely mahogany back. You're in a good position to try and prevent a deterioration in normal colour if dom spots are uncomon :)

[DK Nadezhda's]

oh -that is going to be in consideration

so far we are two "real" breeders, who's going to try breed the chinese with some serious goals... for both agouti and dom spot, might even going to see if we can get the bew... but it's hard work, and we are going to meet up soon, and getting a plan started :) it's a hard job to do right, but it might work out, if we canget the chinese a little more popular ind Denmark (it has been earlier) :)
luckely we have some good connecting both of us around the country :)